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Loud rattle after modding the plunger 1.6TD
by
Szopenn
on 18 Sep, 2013 05:47
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Hello....
My name is pawel and I welcome everybody from POland......
I decided to write here because perhaps you will be able to help.... some details...
Engine 1.6TD SB
Pump - standard SB pump + TDI 10 mm plunger (1z), timing mod, govmod
Injectors - SB ones, new bosch set at 155bar.
Cam plate - SB
Timing advance - does not bring results.
Namely, no matter whether the engine is cold or hot... I get some kind of a rattle, the sound of loose nuts banging in the valve cover.... here is the sound. Is there anything I could do with it, or perhaps TDI plunger is not meant to be on this setup?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0iSkDO9U4wB
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#1
by
theman53
on 18 Sep, 2013 05:53
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Sounds normal to me. Remember the sharper 10mm head will inject faster than your old head so the sound is going to change.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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#2
by
Szopenn
on 18 Sep, 2013 05:57
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Ok, perhaps it sounds normally for such a setup... but.... I don't like the sound of it really... especially the high pitch rattle/crackle as if the engine was breaking apart... .... Is there a way to get rid of it? different injectors?? in fact, I tried to use double spring AAZ injectors but with no success as for the sound, the idle was much more stable though
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#3
by
theman53
on 18 Sep, 2013 06:18
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Not really. Think of it as you are shooting 1 measure of fuel with a 9mm head or 1 measure of fuel with a 10mm head. The 10mm will do it so much faster that the sound of it will be much more violent. AAZ dual spring will help but the injection even being so much shorter I don't think you will have a way to get rid of it. Mine sounds different with a 9, 10, or the 12mm pumps I have tried. Each one progressively more violent sounding. I would also time it different than the stock head. I have no good recommendation but more like .9mm - .95mm would be a guess.
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#4
by
Szopenn
on 18 Sep, 2013 07:05
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that's quite bad news... however... there are oem TD 10mm pumps and they don't produce such a nasty sound in the engines they were designed for, for example the 10mm Fiat CROMA 2.5TD pump has a 10 mm plunger as well...
I doubt any 10mm oem car would work in such a nasty way... it would frighten prospective buyers off.... I could go with a TD plunger instead (I have bought the croma pomp anyway) if the TDI components are not suitable here...
even if we take it for a norm in the modified setup, the sound indicates some kind of abnormality as for the way the injectors work...
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#5
by
libbydiesel
on 18 Sep, 2013 07:55
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Retard the static timing.
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#6
by
Szopenn
on 18 Sep, 2013 07:58
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
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#7
by
745 turbogreasel
on 18 Sep, 2013 14:14
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If you go to a bigger delivery pipes, it might damp the pulse noise in the lines.
Also that little washer behind the plunger, is the clearance changed?
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#8
by
theman53
on 18 Sep, 2013 15:40
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
That is a good way to get people to not help. We are not the vortex or other forums that like aggressiveness. I am moving this to the IDI section, good luck.
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#9
by
libbydiesel
on 18 Sep, 2013 18:21
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Good luck with your pump.
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#10
by
8v-of-fury
on 18 Sep, 2013 19:39
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
Lol. Why so angry, guy from Poland?
Retard the static timing.
Try it again, move it further back. That noise you are hearing? Is fuel being injected before the piston reaches TDC. Dangerous territory.
Usually however, I have heard that you need to move the static timing up when you increase the plunger size. He says he only replaced the plunger, he did not mention whether or not he changed the cam plate. If he did not change the cam plate fuel delivery characteristics other than volume would not have changed.
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#11
by
Szopenn
on 18 Sep, 2013 21:38
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If you go to a bigger delivery pipes, it might damp the pulse noise in the lines.
Also that little washer behind the plunger, is the clearance changed?
Do you mean delivery pipes or delivery nozzles? because.... Is it possible to get bigger delivery pipses, I don't know.. I don't think TDIs have them bigger really.
As for the delivery nozzles, so far I have used 4 sets, 1v, SB, AAZ, and lastly 1Z which made the engine softer but did not remove the rattle....
Clearance plunger..... -> I did it, I used 0.50 and 2x 0.50 distance plates.... - the idle is slower but the sound remains... perhaps the engine is a bit softer - but can't say really
Lol. Why so angry, guy from Poland?
Angry?? a bit frustrated I would say after I had written in the first post - TIMING ADVANCE - won't bring results - I moved it futher and further forwards/backwards
And I really don't take - 'try to retard' suggestion as any form of help, in fact, sounds like an answer from a call center - check if your plugged your device first.... come on
he did not mention whether or not he changed the cam plate. If he did not change the cam plate fuel delivery characteristics other than volume would not have changed.
The first post
Engine 1.6TD SB
Pump - standard SB pump + TDI 10 mm plunger (1z), timing mod, govmod
Injectors - SB ones, new bosch set at 155bar.
Cam plate - SBTiming advance - does not bring results.
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#12
by
745 turbogreasel
on 18 Sep, 2013 23:58
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HEy! that last quote was not me
There are in fact places which make delivery pipes in larger inside diameter. You need it for top end truck & tractor pulling,~4x factory engine output.
You probably do not need it from a performance perspective, my reasoning is that a larger compressible volume should damp noise from the pipe. It also retards timing slightly.
I don't think I know of anyone who has reported a significant change using different both working deliver check valves.
Re: Libbys comment...IMO it is good to start with the very basic. When someone tells me their car won't start , one of the very first questions is '"Regardless of what the gauge says, do you know for a fact there is fuel in it?" I have caught quite a few with that one.
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#13
by
Szopenn
on 19 Sep, 2013 05:18
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so.. I should assume that your pumps with the 10mm plunger, similar configuration, work in the same way? loud rattling yea?
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#14
by
theman53
on 19 Sep, 2013 05:56
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Sounds normal to me. Remember the sharper 10mm head will inject faster than your old head so the sound is going to change.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Yes the pre combustion chambers in this engine were not designed to have 10mm and larger pumps installed on the engine. I believe you that some other engine that came factory with a larger pump will sound different but they were also internally designed for it as well. I have told you my experiences and you are still asking the same question. My answer is still the same, yes it is loud and sounds normal to me. I also didn't tell you to advance it as you said you had in the first post, I gave you some retarded timing specs and said play with it. You can redesign the pre combustion chamber in the head then yes I think it will produce a different tone that you may like, but I cannot tell you if it will be any better than what you have or not. I have a 10mm head on my car now and I have ported the pre chambers, it still sounds loud. Good luck with your pump.