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Broken lifter - stupid, stupid, stupid
by
Gizmoman
on 05 May, 2013 07:55
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OK, It's Saturday morning. Brand new KS head (ported). I have my new one hole metal head gasket all the way from England, Have my ARP studs installed following the instructions meticulously, and was on my last pass with the dial torque wrench set to 125 lbs - CRACK! What the hell was that? I went over the studs one more time to see if one had snapped - all good. Then it dawned on me that I had not put the pistons into a "safe zone" before setting the head on. Visions of one of the open valves punching through a piston almost made me puke my morning coffee.
Oh well, I slowly un-tourqued the head doing the sequence in reverse and removed the head - everything looked fine. Hmm, maybe it was just friction between a nut and washer deciding to let loose and I was just being overly cautious. After rotating the crank to put all four pistons at the half way point in the barrels, I put the head back on and went through the sequence again.
Now that the head was nice and tight I figured I'd set the cam to TDC on #1 - I couldn't rotate it. I glanced down the cam and noticed that the #4 exhaust lifter was wobbling as I tried to rotate the cam. Looking closer it was obvious that I had snapped the top clean off. I'll post pictures as soon as I figure out what is going on with my Picassa (it upgraded automatically and now it doesn't work properly).
Anyway, I installed a used lifter out of the old head - it fit fine and I'm back in business (I hope). I didn't see any damage to the valves or the pistons but then I didn't really inspect it that close as I wasn't aware of the cause till I had already put the head back on and torqued it down.
So, should I just keep assembling or would you pull the head and the valve and check it out? Obviously I don't want to do that but I also don't want to find after I installed it in the van that I have no compression on #4.
I spoze I could make a fitting and charge #4 with compressed air and see if it is much different from 1, 2 and 3?
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#1
by
bajacalal
on 05 May, 2013 08:59
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I would pull that valve and check it and if it's at all bent, replace it and replace the valve guide if it's at all bent.
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#2
by
Gizmoman
on 05 May, 2013 09:58
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I would pull that valve and check it and if it's at all bent, replace it and replace the valve guide if it's at all bent.
Yeah, I was figuring the same but geeze - I really would like to move this along.
Here's a shot of the lifter.
I'm thinking the load would have been extremely straight on so the only way it would have bent the valve would be if it were a crooked load on the valve itself. The lifter is guided as well. The load became crooked at the face of the lifter (which is not nearly as strong being so thin) due to the cam lobe off-set - so that's where it gave in.
Here's a shot of the assembly - not even a mark on the piston.
Am I just making excuses?
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#3
by
Toby
on 05 May, 2013 10:34
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I would pull the valve and check it. That so easy to do at this point that it would be stupid not to. The valves on the these motors are pretty much perpendicular to the piston, so they will take a lot of abuse w/o looking damaged. You will need to put an dial indicator on the valve face where it touches the seat to be sure if its straight or not. Either way I would inspect the guide, but I would not replace it unless you are sure that it is damaged. The new guide will not be concentric with the seat and you will need to get it touched up if you change the guide.
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#4
by
Gizmoman
on 05 May, 2013 11:19
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OK - thanks guys. I guess there's no sense in adding another "stupid" to the tree I already have
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#5
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 05 May, 2013 11:25
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after squishing a valve, its COMMON to have the engine run afterwards, then shortly after that, drop the head off the valve, and destroy the engine..
my grandpas old diesel squished the #1 exhaust valve, and it broke the head, block, piston, squished the rod, but the crank was fine..
anyways, about 2 years later, i found the head to that valve.. it had lodged its self in the water pump!!
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#6
by
wolf_walker
on 05 May, 2013 11:34
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Yep. I'd never run a valve that had pressure on it that I hadn't examined the hell out of.
I dunno if it's required on these OHC hyd lifters, but I usually prelude mine like one does for old OHV stuff.
And I wouldn't use a used one cheap as they are and prone to noise as they are.
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#7
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 05 May, 2013 11:36
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Yep. I'd never run a valve that had pressure on it that I hadn't examined the hell out of.
I dunno if it's required on these OHC hyd lifters, but I usually prelude mine like one does for old OHV stuff.
And I wouldn't use a used one cheap as they are and prone to noise as they are.
they really dont even prime that much.. i soak them over night, but they still clatter like a bag of hammers when i fire it the first time, until it sees some RPM and some hot oil..
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#8
by
wolf_walker
on 05 May, 2013 11:39
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I soak em too, they don't suck up oil like an old V8 lifter, yeah.
Just seemed like a good idea.
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#9
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 05 May, 2013 11:42
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I soak em too, they don't suck up oil like an old V8 lifter, yeah.
Just seemed like a good idea.
i HAVE installed lifters dry before (un-primed, but lubed the button, sides, and face)
sounds the exact same, for just as long..
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#10
by
Toby
on 05 May, 2013 12:28
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In order to prime the lash adjusters you need to have them in oil and pump the plunger up and down until it expels the air and gets solid otherwise you are just lubing the outside.
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#11
by
Gizmoman
on 05 May, 2013 12:41
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OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
I may get a new lifter but with the bad luck I've had getting parts for this engine - it seems like a crap shoot.
The lifter I am putting back in has very few miles on it so I'm might just proceed.
They were in the brand new KS head and if it were that critical, I would think that Klobenschmidt would have filled them.
Do you suggest I remove each one and pump it up?
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#12
by
TylerDurden
on 05 May, 2013 12:48
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I was not in a hurry, so I let my new lifters sit inverted with ATF in them up to the rim... took over a week for the ATF to creep down into the bodies. I would add enough that the ATF would eventually start draining out the slot.
The ones I got from Autohaus don't have much give when new, to "pump them up".
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#13
by
Gizmoman
on 05 May, 2013 13:21
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OK, "borrowed" a small cup from the kitchen and filled it with clean oil, dropped a lifter into it and pumped it it till no bubbles came out.
Now I'm going to drop it back into the head and do the remaining seven. My question is, while I am messing with the rebuild, turning the crank (and cam), flipping the assembly over on the stand, etc., where is this oil going to go? As the engine won't be running for possibly four more weeks will the oil just drain out?
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#14
by
wolf_walker
on 05 May, 2013 14:32
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Got me, I don't remember how they are designed.
Hyd lifters in an old domestic v8 or such will stay pumped up
for awhile, and I've seen them on stock motors with so little lift
from lack of oil that they wouldn't start on dry fresh motor.
But they are a different animal, and we pre-lube them by
presurizing the oiling system before starting the first time.
Anything that is metal and moves that I'm assembling
I'm going to lube it myself. I'm also a fan of pre-lubing
fresh motors, in addition to assembly lube. A lot of
little stuff like this might be, on these motors, the difference
between one that lives for 350k and one that lives for 500K,
neither of which most people will ever see, even us.
Even me since I don't drive 100K/year anymore.
It's the principle of the thing though.