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1.7D smokes white, doesn't want to idle...
by
TITan
on 05 Aug, 2010 09:47
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Hi! Long time listener, first time caller!
Not that long ago I got myself my first diesel car - a 1990 VW T3 transporter (or Vanagon to most of you probably) with a non running 1.7 diesel. Everything the previous owner did to it seems to be wrong
Got the engine running with a fixed starter, new filters, new belts and glow plugs. The problem is that although it runs, it runs badly.
The engine
smokes white at idle (which it barely holds),
black whenever I try accelerating.
I'm quite good with a wrench, but diesels are completely new to me. But I'm learning slowly from this site and making the right tools for the job along the way.
So far I tried:
Setting the timing when I changed the cam belt (it was quite off before, the PO set it up with the wrong mark on the flywheel) to 0.9 mm.
Playing around with the max fuel screw - the engine actually runs better when it's so in that the idle can barely be set.
Checked the Injection pump internal pressure today and it seems to be within normal bounds.
Had the injectors tested and the certified Bosch garage said they were OK (didn't say any numbers
). One heat shield was blackened, all were replaced.
Anything I could try that I've missed while searching the forums? :/
Pic of the offender:
I'll try and get a video up later today of how it runs now.
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#1
by
Smokey Eddy
on 05 Aug, 2010 10:18
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double check that timing bud. 99/100 times the pump is off (for what ever reason). These things don't take much to run, and run somewhat decently.
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#2
by
Vincent Waldon
on 05 Aug, 2010 10:28
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Given that you're seeing white smoke at idle, and assuming that white smoke is unburnt fuel (as opposed to coolant) I'd agree that the timing is the first thing I'd play with. If you keep in mind that
- the dial indicator setting assumes a brand new pump with no internal wear etc
- 1mm is a pretty common setting for N/A pumps
- it sounds like it's not enjoying idling
you probably have some wiggle room for timing advancement. I'd still use the dial indicator... so that you can measure what you're doing... but I'd certainly be inclined to see how she runs at 1.00mm or even beyond... my guess is that she's gonna idle nicer and smoke less.
The black smoke, on the other hand, is probably not a timing issue but a air/fueling issue... if you can straighten out the idling issue with some additional static advance you may have more flexibility to play with the fuel screw. As well, you've confirmed a clean air filter, no mice nests in the tubing, etc.?? Happens all the time.. those mice can build fast when they want to !!
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#3
by
TITan
on 05 Aug, 2010 10:33
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About to check it for the 15th time probably
Will report back.
I does smell like unburned diesel. That and the fact that the exhaust gets to hot for just running at idle and there is no missing coolant/pressurizing of coolant that makes me almost sure it's fuel/timing and not a HG issue.
And it finally stopped raining so here are two videos:
0.9mm timing:
Volkswagen Transporter T3 1.7d smokingA bit more advance:
Volkswagen Transporter T3 1.7d smoking
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#4
by
Vincent Waldon
on 05 Aug, 2010 10:36
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I'd say keep adding more advance and see what happens.. you can't hurt her, and I'm not hearing anything resembling "marbles in a can" just yet.
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#5
by
TITan
on 05 Aug, 2010 12:31
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Tried setting the timing again...twice... no change.
Advanced the timing to the point of marbles in the engine... still nothing (apart from harder starting).
Back to the old drawing board :/
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#6
by
Smokey Eddy
on 05 Aug, 2010 15:44
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HARDER starting with lots of advance... curious.
To be sure if its diesel stick your face in the exhaust, i know its unpleasant, but if it stings your eyes its diesel. I can't see the videos at work unfortunately but this is an intersting dilema.
the head may have lifted or warped ... did this engine ever overheat?
A quick (especially since its non-turbo) head removal, gasket change and inspection might make her right as rain. Or at least tell you what's going on.
cost would be:
headgasket & head bolts, oil, coolant. and of course some of your time.
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#7
by
TITan
on 05 Aug, 2010 15:55
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The history of the engine isn't fully known to me. All I know is that for the later part of it's life the car was used to transport workers and they always pushed the engine as hard as they could. The car was retired after the starter fell apart. They did say it probably has a faulty injector... but from the way they fixed the car this has to be taken with some reserve.
Yes it starts harder now. For instance it barely starts if I pull the "choke" out now (if I pull it out during the engine running you can hear the engine get harsher).
The head could be warped... but it would seem to me that I'd have coolant in my oil, oil in my coolant... or some other symptom of a bad HG.
After a couple of weeks of trying to get it running it looks like a AAZ swap is happening sooner than I planed :/
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#8
by
Vincent Waldon
on 05 Aug, 2010 16:00
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Yes it starts harder now. For instance it barely starts if I pull the "choke" out now (if I pull it out during the engine running you can hear the engine get harsher).
Yeah, that's the classic sign that you're on the edge of having too much static advance. By added even more advance with the cold start known injection is starting so early under the slow RPMs of the starter that it's actually materially pushing back against the rising piston and ergo the starter.
My AAZ does that at a hair over 1.05mm... so I don't pull the cold start knob *until* the instant it starts... then I tug on the handle once the engine is running.
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#9
by
the caveman
on 05 Aug, 2010 16:28
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Not saying it's the motor, but that is a pretty small engine in a T3. They are called bricks for a reason. I heard that 200,00kms is about it before a refresh or rebuild,so it wouldn't hurt to check compression. On the other hand, it's stronger than a 1.6 [if it's a later production, it even should have piston oilers] , perfect candidate to turbo
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#10
by
TITan
on 09 Aug, 2010 10:11
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Today I set the engine back to 1.05mm timing so it started normally again and tried to loosen one injector pipe at a time... two had absolutely no impact on how the engine ran except for no more smoke out of the pipe. I'm probably right in thinking that there's no compression in those cylinders (2 and 4)? Worked really good for 2 cylinders
Anyway... picked up a AAZ for 150€ so the van is getting a boost in power.
The 1.7 will be put to the side with it's faith unknown for now... But probably will end up as a 1.7 bottom end with 1.9td head and turbine for a rev happy engine in something lighter
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#11
by
motomike33y
on 10 Aug, 2010 12:44
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If you have access to a pop-tester, would be interesting to check out those two injectors-maybe that's what you need rather than a different engine. I like to try the simpler things first.
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#12
by
TITan
on 10 Aug, 2010 14:21
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Had all the injectors pop tested and all I got from the certified bosch person was "there OK". No pressures, no details no nothing...
I'm tempted to make my own pop tester (made evrey other diesel specific tool till now) just to see what's up with the engine.
That plus I have to make a compression testing tool that will work with diesels...
But first the AAZ must go in
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#13
by
Smokey Eddy
on 12 Aug, 2010 15:28
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im willing the bet there is a guy in Europe (on this forum) with a pop tester who would be willing to send you his for the cost of return shipping?
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#14
by
TITan
on 04 Dec, 2010 11:49
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To bump up a old thread:
Finaly got some time to work on the T3 and the AAZ is almost in (my AAZ came with a K24 turbo which would have been to lagy so I put on a K14 from a 80hp SB engined passat, and now I'm having truble with the water cooling, but that's a different post all togheter
) I found the half hour of time to take the 1.7 apart.
The head:
Close up of the nr.4 cylinder:
The HG:
The other side:
The botom:
Any Guesses what failed?