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Help/advice plz puting a diesel in experimental plane
by
tomlaudato
on 31 May, 2008 17:18
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HI new member to this forum name is tom laudato in california usa
I am building a home built experimental airplane and want to put a diesel engine in this airplane.....i need 125 hp or so and know the engine weight is going to be about 100 lbs more when the cloud clears.....i can accept that..
I have decided i want to have the basic diesel engine with no electronics of any kind only the turbo and injector pump....keeping it as simple as i can for reliability.....
So far i have been advised that i should be looking for a 1Z or AHU engine and an injector pump from the AAZ engine and the turbo from either engine can be adapted by some magic.....
Can you guys with experience tell me if this is the right direction and what year cars/models would i be looking for to get these parts.....
I also would greatly appreciate any advice where to get these engine..
is there a car running this type of configuration where i can just buy the car and rebuild the engine
Thanks in advance for any and all help tom....
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#1
by
Pat Dolan
on 05 Jun, 2008 07:42
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this is no where near as simple as it seems.
To begin with, the 1Z/AHU is just another VE pump TDI, and it wouldn't matter if you used that or the ALH ('99-'03). They are computer controlled engines - but ones that can easily have the pump converted to purely mechanical control. While later engines are MUCH more powerful, they also suffer from being usuitable for mechanical control.
It doesn't matter what you do with the turbocharger, since your application is essentially "constant speed" and you don't need the VNT or even a wastegate - just size the turbo to your need and let it rip. Also, due to altitude considerations, you want a lot more compressor than the puny sea level street things want.
Then there is the BIG issue: what are you going to do for prop drive (both speeds and thrust loads)
? You can't just hang a prop on the end of a TDI crank and expect it to: a) live, or b) make any power. While the 1Z 1.9 TDI peaks torque at 2,000 rpm, it makes a dismal 55 HP. A 503 Rotax will blow it out of the water for performance. By the time you get a drive on a TDI to let it run to its 4,000 rpm power peak (90 HP, but that can easily be built up to 150) you can kiss any idea of +100 lbs goodbye and start thinking of +200 (seriously)
IF I were to really want a diesel light aircraft engine, I could only reccomend that you look for a used or runout Theilert 1.7 (135 HP). If you think you can develop a VW installation for less money than that, you really have a few nasty surprises coming. Not sure if the Delta Hawk guys are in production or not, but you need to look around at what IS being done first.
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#2
by
tomlaudato
on 05 Jun, 2008 15:14
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In order to get the hp out of one of these engines i would need to run it at a high speed then needing to reduce speed at the prop thus the much added weight.....a lycoming gas engine at 125 hp is pushing 275 lbs and i thought i could get similar hp by the added weight of 100 lb but you think it would be closer to 200 lbs more thanks for the info tom
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#3
by
saurkraut
on 06 Jun, 2008 05:38
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#4
by
tomlaudato
on 06 Jun, 2008 09:36
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Here is the price according to there web site might be a little steep considering not all are rich homebuilders fore sure i am not
and still looking to ssee if it is possible to have an alternative to a gas engine.....I happen to live near a us border and diesel is available at less than us prices...
DH160A4/V4/R4
DH180A4/V4/R4 160 -180 HP non-certified aviation inverted/upright/vertical shaft V-4 $29,000
DH200A4/V4/R4 200 HP non-certified aviation inverted/upright/vertical shaft V-4 $32,500
thanks again for the info and help tom
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#5
by
jimfoo
on 06 Jun, 2008 09:40
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I would figure 125 hp from a 1.9 wouldn't be hard at all, especially a TDI, since you are probably talking crank HP, which is greater than BHP. I figure I was getting somewhere around 110 crank hp out of my AAZ, and at least that out of my M-TDI, running 15-18 lbs boost and only a 10 mm head.
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#6
by
rabbitman
on 06 Jun, 2008 20:54
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I heard diesel engines have too hard of power pulses and the prop can't take it. Unless whatever prop speed reduction you use could soak up the pulses without breaking. I've thought of doing the same thing.....vw diesel in an airplane. I don't like timing belts on an airplane though. Good luck
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#7
by
lbreton
on 07 Jun, 2008 11:17
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one other serious issue to consider is your fuel system. What if you loose your prime when banking. Unlike a gas, that may sputter, but keep going, the diesel will sputter and stop. Then you will have to crawl out of your cockpit and purge the lines, while you are crashing. :shock: Were you planning on using some sort of air free bladder system? And an application like this, I would not use an AAZ pump. I would use a freshly built, properly built mTDI pump.
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#8
by
tomlaudato
on 07 Jun, 2008 16:36
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I am searching for those that have knowledge of all the diesel vw engines
that might work...... i am fully aware of weight reduced carrying capacity
and range but keep coming back to the reality that gasoline isnever going to return to any reasonable price...... logic tells you that why would any oil producing nation every increase production when reducing it as necessary will keep high prices to all of them....our own oil is stuck with those that want to stop. suing it.....If i want to fly and fly with reasonable fuel costs then an alternative would be a wonderful thing....As i mentioned in an earlier post i live near a border of another country where diesel is sold at a very good price....they have found new reserves and there people riot in the streets when the government owned oil tries to raise prices....
If a plane is built that will accept what the weight of the diesel conversion would be then what ever allowable load capacity is left is what it will be....
if the range is reduced then that is what it will be also.
the questions i am asking is
what engine components would work best taking into consideration
keeping it as simple as possible non electronics
keeping it as light as possible
Please understand i do appreciate any and all information positive and negative and that is why i have posted this desire here where many seem to have the knowledge and experience so that one would be able to make an intelligent decision as to try or not...
tom laudato not giving up till all avenues are exhausted..
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#9
by
burnt_servo
on 07 Jun, 2008 19:09
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one other serious issue to consider is your fuel system. What if you loose your prime when banking. Unlike a gas, that may sputter, but keep going, the diesel will sputter and stop. Then you will have to crawl out of your cockpit and purge the lines, while you are crashing. :shock: Were you planning on using some sort of air free bladder system? And an application like this, I would not use an AAZ pump. I would use a freshly built, properly built mTDI pump.
with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
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#10
by
burnt_servo
on 07 Jun, 2008 19:17
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I am searching for those that have knowledge of all the diesel vw engines
that might work...... i am fully aware of weight reduced carrying capacity
and range but keep coming back to the reality that gasoline isnever going to return to any reasonable price...... logic tells you that why would any oil producing nation every increase production when reducing it as necessary will keep high prices to all of them....our own oil is stuck with those that want to stop. suing it.....If i want to fly and fly with reasonable fuel costs then an alternative would be a wonderful thing....As i mentioned in an earlier post i live near a border of another country where diesel is sold at a very good price....they have found new reserves and there people riot in the streets when the government owned oil tries to raise prices....
If a plane is built that will accept what the weight of the diesel conversion would be then what ever allowable load capacity is left is what it will be....
if the range is reduced then that is what it will be also.
the questions i am asking is
what engine components would work best taking into consideration
keeping it as simple as possible non electronics
keeping it as light as possible
Please understand i do appreciate any and all information positive and negative and that is why i have posted this desire here where many seem to have the knowledge and experience so that one would be able to make an intelligent decision as to try or not...
tom laudato not giving up till all avenues are exhausted..
a guy i work with is a pilot and we have been playing with this idea around a bit .
what i'd be thinking of , is a 1.6 turbo , with head studs and main studs , aaz metal headgasket .
maybe a set of compund turbo's ...... maybe a k26 off of a mercede's feeding into the stock vw k24 , to help keep a decent amount of boost at altitude .
the to offset the power pulses , run the 1.6 at a higher rpm than one would run one of the larger engines .
maybe a 1.9 idi camplate in the 1.6 pump .... maybe even mercedes nozels on the injectors .
i left a bunch out ... but this should get the wheels turning .
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#11
by
jtanguay
on 07 Jun, 2008 19:50
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you wouldn't really need to worry about the crank sprocket issue at least :lol:
definitely run a TDI engine as the lower CR will definitely help at higher altitudes, and reduce the so called diesel 'pulses'. i personally would use a 3 cyl TDI engine for the job, and have it programmed to run high boost & squeeze out the needed power everywhich way i could. with sensors etc the engine will run at its peak efficiency, and be able to run very smooth. the older IDI's are way too affected by temperature and moisture.
the timing belt issue is definitely a good point. i guess one would need stricter guidelines on timing belt changes? and no cheap parts? i wonder if the belt would last longer due to no stop and go flying :lol:
with all that said, i would also look into getting one of those airplane parachutes just in case... as you never really know :wink:
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#12
by
lbreton
on 08 Jun, 2008 07:33
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with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
How is it a non issue? If you pull air, you pull air, wether your lift pump is big or small. Air goes down line to IP, once in IP the problems begin. What am I missing here?
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#13
by
burnt_servo
on 08 Jun, 2008 07:51
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with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
How is it a non issue? If you pull air, you pull air, wether your lift pump is big or small. Air goes down line to IP, once in IP the problems begin. What am I missing here?
how does the fuel system in a gasoline , fuel injected engine work ?
if your going to get air in the fuel system in a diesel system , the same system with produce air in a gas system .
the bigest thing is putting in a decent sized lift pump that greatly exceeds the engines demands , and if air gets in the system, the lift is able to " burp " out the air .......
there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there .......
and as i said it's a non issue , unless your basicly sticking a prop onto a bunch of stock vw parts .... then your just asking for evolution to take place .
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#14
by
lbreton
on 08 Jun, 2008 09:37
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how does the fuel system in a gasoline , fuel injected engine work ?
if your going to get air in the fuel system in a diesel system , the same system with produce air in a gas system .
the bigest thing is putting in a decent sized lift pump that greatly exceeds the engines demands , and if air gets in the system, the lift is able to " burp " out the air .......
there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there .......
and as i said it's a non issue , unless your basicly sticking a prop onto a bunch of stock vw parts .... then your just asking for evolution to take place .
what does a gas fuel injection system have to do with a diesel fuel injected system? nothing. Air in a gas system purges out. Air in a diesel system does not purge out. All your fuel in a diesel system passes through the injector pump. Once in the pump, it will end up in the injector lines. If it gets in the injector lines then fuel will not open the injector. Engine stops running till lines are physically purged. And yes, I do know there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there. And I am sure it is "non issue" if the right set-up is used. All I am trying to do is point out to somebody who may or may not know much about diesels and the seriousness of getting air your fuel system. The idea of simply putting a larger lift pump in your tank to solve this problem ..hmm
What are they actually using for a fuel storage and delivery system?