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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Heron on December 15, 2016, 04:30:39 pm
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Hoping to get this done over some time off this next week:
Need to replace timing belt, water pump, all coolant hoses and flush this truck out. It has been sitting in a garage since 93 and I'm not certain if the coolant had been changed before that...
Any suggestions as to a link or something that can guide me in finding the best way to flush the entire system? Not sure if putting a "T" in the heater core line would work and I'm not so sure I really want tap water in the system. I'm planning on drilling a small hole in the Tstat as I remember doing that on the pu I drove back in the early 90's.
The truck runs perfectly in fact the timing belt was replaced in 93 and it still looks like new. The engine was gone thru at a dealership, I know as it was purchased due to a customer not paying the bill...I paid it at the dealership and got the truck. Best running 1.6 I ever drove, I have driven several over the last 30years.
I do have a Bentley and another manual. I've just acquired the timing belt tools I'll need(ip lock, cam lock, dial indicator, belt tensioner) but I'm not sure on the timing belt tensioner guage tool. I ordered one off ebay that looks like the VW tool. I remember the belt needs to flex between 45 and 90 degrees but that is totally subjective.
I do have the older 6pt crankbolt on this truck but cannot find a newerer 12pt. I read somewhere I should replace it..?
The red charging light is staying on and the alternator checks out. I'll be cleaning up the grounds first. Any other ideas would be helpful.
Rough to look at but no rust on the towers or anything substantial underneath(other than exhaust). The lower control arms are pretty rusty.
Should I just replace them?
In addition I'll be replacing all fluids, rear shocks, fr pads, e brake cables, thermoswitch on radiator, starter.
Already cleaned out all metal fuel lines, replaced all others, had the tank dipped and painted the outside.
I appreciate any input on anything that has been found out since the early 90's on this truck, for instance would it be better to run synthetic rotella in it like I do in my Duramax?
Thanks in advance!
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For flushing it I usually just run a hose through the block, heater core and the rad all independently from each other. I've always used tap water in my vehicles and I've never experience any accelerated wear. I don't usually keep my vehicles for super long but rads and hoses are relatively cheap. I wouldn't worry too much about having a bit of tap water in it honestly.
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The red charging light is staying on and the alternator checks out. I'll be cleaning up the grounds first. Any other ideas would be helpful.
check you exicter wire is hooked up and connected properly.
I do have the older 6pt crankbolt on this truck but cannot find a newerer 12pt. I read somewhere I should replace it..?
i still have orig 6pt crank bolts in mine, either make sure its real tight, i set at 150ftlbs, or when already good and tight take a good impact on high setting and hit a few times. newer 12pt crank 'stretch' bolts are easy to find. and fit, so i hear. edit-perhaps the newer 'stretch' bolts dont fit-
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Yes, won't be able to get her "hot" before I change everything out. I hate to put a new water pump on before I can flush properly but I may just run tap thru everything once I get the old water pump and all hoses off.
I remember hearing about the exciter wire but I cannot remember where it is, is it in the Bentley?
Also, I'm needing a new cold start wire and cannot find one anywhere, any ideas?
Is it easier to mark the belts and pulley's to replace the timing belt or should I just loosen everything up, find TDC and go from there?
The truck runs great, I'm wondering if I really have to adjust the IP timing once I change the belt? I kind of hate to mess with it...
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I'm not sure about the older style turbo diesels (pre85) but the 85 and newer ones timing is very important and needs to be set accurately. Marking the belt doesnt really work on these engines. You need to set the timing to tdc, loosen the cam pulley, put a locking plate on the back of the cam and a locking pin on the pump install the new belt and then set the pump timing with a dial gauge. I suppose keeping the pump locked in place would keep it fairly close to what its set at now.
Give this a read, its a really good guide on how to set the timing properly.
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
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Yes, I like Vince's write up. I've just read so much on different sites about all the differing philosophies. I'm really trying to narrow things down. I have all the tools to do it right and will do it by the book but I was wondering if the truck runs really well, starts without any hesitation, I'm thinking I need to check the timing before I do anything and make sure I set it back to that same place.
Also, I've seen some instructions with the four injector lines disconnected and others with them connected. Not sure I can get the dial guage in there without removing the lines.
Anyone know the best way to check timing before I start the timing belt, water pump etc...?
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To check timing you would rotate the crank to tdc and insert your dial gauge with a bit of preload, rotate the engine backwards until the gauge stops moving then zero it, rotate forward until you are at tdc and that will tell you the pump timing. Depending on your dial gauge adapter you shouldn't need to remove the lines. Stock timing isnt necessarily "the best". There is a wide range the engine will run fairly well at but most people suggest a bit of advance to increase performance, cold starting and fuel mileage. I think around .95mm-1.05mm are what most people recommend but there's no set number for the best, trial and error is how you would figure it out. A lot of people time it by ear as well.
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When you say "cold start wire" I'm guessing you mean the cable for the cold start timing advance. As far as I know you can't get them anymore, unless you find one in a junk yard. The only place I've seen anything close is from Parts Place. According to their literature what they sell as a replacement will work, but it's not the same as OEM.
I don't think the 12 point crank bolts will work for you. If I recall correctly the 12 point bolts are M14 and the 6 pointers are M12.
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Yes, the cold start wire. I'll maybe do something with a choke setup.
On a different track.
Got TDC on flywheel but it is off about 1/4" if I slide cam lock in to place.
Do I remark and assume when dealer put flywheel back in they didn't get it right?
Truck runs great right now...?
I'm simply trying to get a timing reading so I can put it back there when I put the new belt on.
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There isn't much play in the flywheel. Even with cam timing slightly off the car can run half decent. I'd just set it properly if I were you.
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Not sure what to do here. ??? ??? ???
I was hoping to get a timing number so I can put it back to the current timing number once I put on the new belt.
The flywheel TDC is still visible in the hole but not right at center. If I put the cam lock on it moves it maybe 1/4"
The belt is still on
Should I take a measurement with the dial indicator before I loosen the cam nut and turn the engine to get it to exactly TDC?
This truck starts faster, smokes less and seems to have more power than any I have ever driven...?
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go by the crank position rather then the cam, it sounds like your cam wasnt set properly to begin with.
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I really want to preserve whatever setting the pump is at now.
Question is; how to accurately measure the current timing if the TDC mark on the flywheel is not perfectly centered(with all locks in)..and if it's even realistic?
Do I measure it with the TDC on the crank over to the side of the peep hole if all locks are in place or do I forget the locks(IP and cam), move the crank a hair to get it right on crank TDC and use that as my reference to measure the current timing?
I'd think not b/c as soon as I loosen the cam sprocket and align the TDC so the mark is right on and all locks are in place the previous timing number(where the truck runs GREAT) is not valid...right?
I know I can start over, change out everything, put the new belt, tensioner etc...in place and then follow the TDC and retime it as per .88 but I've read so many people have issues once they mess with it. I'd really love to have a PRE measurement so even if my guage is not accurate I can return it to the exact same setting and hopefully the engine will run as it did before.
I know I'm not 180 out as the notch in the cam is not centered and there is only one way the lock will work and when it's there it's almost(1/4" off) right on TDC and all locks are in place, cylinder 1 lobes are up.
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I agree with the notion that the cam was not set properly. If your machine runs well now, it will only run better with the cam set right.
PS
I haven't had one of these where I couldn't get the dial indicator installed with the lines in place.
It's not uncommon for someone to inadvertently shift the cam timing when tensioning the belt... slack has to be on the tensioner side.
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Check your pump timing off of the crank. I honestly think you are worried too much about what its timed at right now. A bit of advance is going to do nothing but make it run better, like I said before best performance/mileage is usually around .95-1.05mm. If you want to know what it was before hand as a starting point then sure have a look but to just set it and forget it at that value might rob you of free performance. There is a fairly big timing range that the engine will run fairly well at.
Like tyler mentioned its fairly easy to shift the timing slightly when setting tension. I typically get the belt on and have the cam pulley loose and the lock in place, rotate the crank slightly past tdc, then back to tdc, set tension, remove the lock and tighten the cam. rotate the crank twice and verify its set properly. Dont set your belt too tight either, you dont need much tension on it.
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So should I bother trying to get a reading of where it is at the current time or just scrap the idea and redo the settings after the new belt/tensioner is on and hope for the best?
I did just recheck and the lobes are up at 1, cam lock, ip lock and notch is perfectly lined up on the IP pulley/housing.
The only thing off is the TDC and it's only off by a quarter inch in the peep hole.
The current belt is riding a bit on the outside of the IP. I have not read yet in the Bentley but can it be shimmed out or something to align it better?
My only history with this truck running is I bought it in 1993 from a VW dealership that had just done extensive work on the motor. I probably drove it around town for 10 miles at that point then drove it from Georgia to CT where I thought it would be used by my dad. It never moved from his garage other than him starting it regularly.
It drove great going up there and had way more power than my current(at that time) pickup had(same truck, just with AC and a 5spd).
I now have the truck back in my garage and have just opened it up.
Timing belt on it still looks brand new and even the gasket on the valve cover looks brand new. I've got lots to do but I really don't want to screw anything up. It's been many years since I've turned a wrench on this setup.
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Okay, so just forget about the timing...just get the belt and tensioner on and go from there.
Do I bother with the twist type timing belt tension guage(like the 210) or just set it by hand somewhere around 75 degrees rotation between the cam and the ip?
I've read 45 for diesels but then I've read where people that used the original tool felt like when it was at 13 they could twist it around 75 deg...?
I don't want to screw up any intermediate shaft bearings or jump time... :'(
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I would just reset the cam and take a reading on the IP.
You really don't even need to get an IP timing reading, you can just make scratch marks at the mounting bracket, if all you want is to ensure it goes back where it was.
PS
I use 45 on the twist for my belt tension.
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Heron,
I would forget about trying to get a pre timing check. What does that matter. When you put on the new belt and tensioner you will do it proper anyway.
You asked:
The current belt is riding a bit on the outside of the IP. I have not read yet in the Bentley but can it be shimmed out or something to align it better?
Libby has a good description in another thread on why the current belt is not tracking on center. It has to do with how the pulley on the IP is aligned and how to change that by adjusting the bolts that hold the bracket to the engine. Don't try to shim the IP on the bracket. That isn't how to fix it.
Good of you to keep an old VW running. Best of luck, sounds close.
OH, don't go 75 degrees on the belt that is too loose, go 45.
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I appreciate all the suggestions. I'm moving forward today with cleaning out the cooling system, installing new pump, housing, tstat after I get the belt on and tensioned.
I'll search for an IP alignment thread by Libby.
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Read early on in the post here:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,36845.msg345325.html#msg345325
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I'll read that post, TY
I've got 2 questions:
1. Tensioner will not slide off, I'm assuming I need to jack the engine? But do I have to pull the mm bolt? I'm thinking not.
2. The intermediate pulley does not spin easy? Should it be replaced or do I have a deeper issue?
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Tensioner stud is into the head. I can remove the nut then remove the stud that goes into the head. I don't think you need to have the engine loose or on a jack. It is a tight fit.
2. This sounds bad. Bearings may be gone or the back end drives the oil pump too. So depends on how difficult you are talking about spinning that pulley. With it doing work turning the oil pump I would venture some resistance there but i wouldn't think it would be much. For sure the pulley isn't going to spin like it was just there to take up travel of the belt.
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Tensioner stud is into the head. I can remove the nut then remove the stud that goes into the head. I don't think you need to have the engine loose or on a jack. It is a tight fit.
2. This sounds bad. Bearings may be gone or the back end drives the oil pump too. So depends on how difficult you are talking about spinning that pulley. With it doing work turning the oil pump I would venture some resistance there but i wouldn't think it would be much. For sure the pulley isn't going to spin like it was just there to take up travel of the belt.
I applied a tiny bit of force up under the mtr mount and it came right off.. :)
After pulling the intermediate pulley off and reinstalling it after the water pump it does not seem as bad. It definitely has some resistance but I think it's just the pump. I need to heat the motor up, run some cleaner in it and get the 26 y/o oil out of it..
Is there one place I can find torque values for intermediate, cam etc...?
I'm going to wait in the aligning the ip as I may have to reseal it but cannot tell until I get it running. Is there a favorite pump re-seal link in case I need it?
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Most people recommend only using oem Bosch seals. I'm not sure where to get them but they should be fairly easy to find if you play with google.
The bentley manual is good as it has information on basically everything on the car. That being said I dont have one and I typically find my torque values with google by searching something along the lines of "Vw diesel cam bolt torque spec". You can usually find a few threads discussing the values on different forums and get confirmation of whatever you find.
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I applied a tiny bit of force up under the mtr mount and it came right off.. :)
this is referring to to the timing tensioner? with belt still on? if belt is still on the lip of tensioner can make it hard, or impossible to get off, why, looking at it did/do you have some type of problem so that the motor mount is hindering this, seems to me you have at least one or more problems you need to trace down, first. hard to tell in the 3rd person.
After pulling the intermediate pulley off and reinstalling it after the water pump it does not seem as bad. It definitely has some resistance but I think it's just the pump. I need to heat the motor up, run some cleaner in it and get the 26 y/o oil out of it..
Is there one place I can find torque values for intermediate, cam etc...?
first the im shaft, there should be NO, almost NO resistance for it to spin. if there is you need to find it, correct it, for one you may need a new oil pump, can pull it, give it a visual, and measure it, lube it, spin it, and feel if its ok, other thing you also have a vacuum pump hooking up from im shaft(thats the intermediate shaft) to oil pump, pull this, check, it may be your resistance, may need a new one anyway, what do i know, its you car, you should know its condition, another you may want to pull im shaft again, and take a good look in there, and at shaft. nows the time to get it correct, it should pay off if you can straighten it out.
there are a couple of posts referring to timing procedure and proper, updated, i might say, torque of bolts. use updated material, youll find them in this forum, for old idi.
going back to what as i recall was your original post, or one of them, to start timing procedure, first turn crank to #1 TDC, 1st the cam will line up @#1, and pump should be @#1 as well, now refer to correct timing procedure, and use the manual(shop) for references as well.
The tensioner would not slide off entirely, hitting the side of the chasis. I merely put a block and lightly jacked up on the mount and it slid right off. BTW; No belt on when I did this.
On the intermediate shaft; So hard to tell, there is resistance but without lots of experience with these motors it's hard to tell. I can hear the vacuum pump, "pumping" when I spin it. I can turn it but in no way does it free spin(which I didn't expect), but after learning what it all does I think the resistance is realistic given it supplies power to the oil pump and the vacuum pump.
Not sure how to yet but will look further at the B to see how to check out the oil pump. I plan on resealing the oil pan once I get her hot and running and can drain the old oil out. I'll check the pump at that point. As I said before the truck ran great, no noise, belt nor pulley noise, nothing. The belt I took off looked brand new although the tensioner, water pump and Tstat all looked to be original.(135K original)
I received my counterhold device so I can now loosen the timing gear and the tighten up the IM pulley so hopefully on Tuesday I'll have the timing belt on, tensioned and will get the pump timed.
I still have lots to do but everything going as planned :P
The truck really looks rough, my wife thinks I'm nuts working on it but some people just don't get it..I also have a 55 AC bulldozer out back needing to have the tracks broken down and the final drive seals replaced. This VW is a cake walk compared to trying to break down that old iron. Just wish there was money growing on trees and more hours in the day. ;)
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If the oil pump is primed the im shaft will definitely have resistance. After changing my pump and bearings in the block I primed the im shaft with a cordless drill and it definitely grabbed the drill pretty hard when it finally got pressure. as long as its spinning and doesnt feel excessively hard to spin I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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Yikes, got bigger problems now :-[
Fuel seems to be leaking from the pulley side of the ip.
I think the "new" timing belt that was on there was too tight to begin with. I only put about 1200 miles on the truck after the timing belt and head was done and then it sat parked since 93
The pump does not seem wet anywhere else but I noticed fuel on the bottom lip of the ip pulley.
Does the pump have to be removed or can I replace the seal with the pump in place?
I've done some searching and found some say to reseal everything and others say to not do it yourself... and others say just replace the "easy" seals and go from there...?
I was planning on putting the new timing belt and all on today but I know I have to sort out this leak first...
What is the common designation for these pumps so if I call a local Bosch supplier I can get the right parts? TY!
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https://www.google.ca/search?q=bosch+ve+injection+pump+seal+kit&oq=bosch+ve+injection+pump+seal+kit&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.11395j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
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https://www.google.ca/search?q=bosch+ve+injection+pump+seal+kit&oq=bosch+ve+injection+pump+seal+kit&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.11395j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Yes tried that but still not clear...
Is there a "go to" guide that people have found on this forum that is the most proven for re-sealing the pumps?
I can clearly see the leak is out under the pulley, so is it the main seal? Prob so b/c the timing belt was very tight...dealer did it 1200 miles and 23 years ago.
Is there a person on this forum that people have used to do the re-seal? It may not pay if I screw it up..?
Do I need part number off pump to get seal kit or is there a known kit everyone uses?
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Once upon a time there was a forum member called 8-valves of fury that sold me a pump and it was leak free, until I over tightened the timing belt and destroyed the pump main seal. I got lucky, I put a new front shaft seal on and had no more leaks for over 100,000 miles. I made sure I put plenty of vasoline behind the seal before I installed it. Been running it for over 3 years now. Slap a new seal on the front and see what happens. But make abolutely sure the timing belt is tensioned correctly using the vw or equivalent tension gauge
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Once upon a time there was a forum member called 8-valves of fury that sold me a pump and it was leak free, until I over tightened the timing belt and destroyed the pump main seal. I got lucky, I put a new front shaft seal on and had no more leaks for over 100,000 miles. I made sure I put plenty of vasoline behind the seal before I installed it. Been running it for over 3 years now. Slap a new seal on the front and see what happens. But make abolutely sure the timing belt is tensioned correctly using the vw or equivalent tension gauge
Yes, I replaced the fr. shaft seal and the two cold start seals. All the seals were original.
Do you happen to know if the belt tensioner guages floating around ebay are a reliable replacement for the VW201? I picked one up, turned it out to about 20, got it on the belt and turned it in to 13 and had to go more than I thought by feel(45) but it seems pretty good. The little indicator knob moved right up to the edge of the dial...about half way under it which I assume would be right on 13. Not sure what to rely on as the twist method is about as good as hand torquing head bolts.
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The tool I have I purchased off of eBay as well. The way you read the tension gauge is similar to how you read a micrometer