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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on September 01, 2014, 08:29:15 am
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I didn't want to sidetrack theman's 36 page post so here's a new thread starting off with Alcaid's reply.
Will it boost more if you let it?
I have a DIY boost controller that dumps boost at 20 psi. 20 really requires an aggressive WOT and the EGT's climb right along with the increase in boost. At 1250F I back off.
I increased the fuel screw from Giles original setting about a 1/2 turn and had to lower the idle to compensate. This greatly improved the low end torque as boost now comes on at 1800 instead of 2K. The idle screw is backed off all the way and any more fuel will require changing the throttle position.
I keep hearing that Boost will lower EGT - makes tons of sense - but it seems the fuel also increases proportionally and EGT's continue to climb. I don't know enough about the IP to know how to adjust that ratio.
I just sent Giles an email with the changes I have made as he originally set the pump up for the K-14. Hopefully he has some ideas.
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The boost pin is eccentrically cut so that one side is a more aggressive angle than the other:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/VWPin_0001_0001.jpg)
If you rotate the cone so that it is the less aggressive angle that the feeler pin rides on, you will reduce the rate of fueling increase. You can also add pre-tension to the boost pin spring in order to reduce the rate of fueling increase.
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The LDA is normally bottomed out anyway at pretty low boost pressures so any higher boost pressure will not give you any more fuel at all. Just more HP and lower EGT. This engines really need air
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When the boost pin bottoms out depends on which spring Giles installed.
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He is running 20psi already, pump was set up for a K14, should't be any travel left in it :)
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And Gizmo, I know you love DIY but those NXS boost controllers on ebay are fairly cheap, easy to setup and works very well even on higher boost pressures :)
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Is it still a 9mm pump btw?
Bigger pump with shorter duration for the same amount of fuel would give you lower EGT as well but that costs $$$
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Is it still a 9mm pump btw?
Bigger pump with shorter duration for the same amount of fuel would give you lower EGT as well but that costs $$$
Don't know what Giles did to the pump. I was very clear on the application though and he said he could provide enough fuel for 120 HP with no problem. He also provided four new injectors as well.
As for the DIY boost controller, I could simply remove it and see what that does.
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Removing a boost controller will only lower the boost if anything
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I read and read about the LDA or governor mod in the FAQ's but it only references adding fuel which is not the goal here.
Would turning this adjustment screw do anything to reduce fuel while increasing boost?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XmcJiWVYD6g/VASpkudiKGI/AAAAAAAAD-Y/tmVCQfI9zt4/w895-h671-no/DSC01238.JPG)
I'm not clear why buying a boost controller would be better that the one I made unless it's assumed the one I made is leaking.
I tested it with compressed air several times and it holds tight to 20 psi - at least it did during the test ;)
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If this is true...
I keep hearing that Boost will lower EGT - makes tons of sense - but it seems the fuel also increases proportionally and EGT's continue to climb.
...then this cannot be...
He is running 20psi already, pump was set up for a K14, should't be any travel left in it :)
...or vice versa.
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Try 25-30 psi without reducing any fuel, and yes I am not joking
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I believe that running that much boost/fuel in an AAZ in a vanagon will not be a long-term reliable driver. I'm happy to be mistaken, tho.
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Try 25-30 psi without reducing any fuel, and yes I am not joking
I assume you mean adjust my controller to hold to 25 psi? Worth a try.
I'd test it today but I just cleaned the diesel off the engine from yet another injector return line pinhole. I'm done messing with anything other than the stock stuff with the braided cover. Ordered some online yesterday as nothing available at the FLAPS.
Possibly I bumped it adjusting the idle and fuel screw but if that's all it takes to make it leak, it's too flimsy.
Any info on that screw on top of the LDA?
I believe that running that much boost/fuel in an AAZ in a vanagon will not be a long-term reliable driver. I'm happy to be mistaken, tho.
I do not want to do anything that will reduce reliability and will heed your advice libby. That's why I have the boost set for 20. It just seems that I'm getting too much fuel relative to my existing boost. It cruises (65 mph) at low pressure somewhere around 7 psi. A long 3% freeway grade (common here) obviously requires some pedal, and the boost goes to 14 and sluffs of from there - but the EGT's begin to hover at 1150-1200. It all makes sense but just seems like higher boost with a lower fuel rate would lower egt's and allow me to maintain 65 (while being easier on the engine as well).
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Keeping an eye on EGT I see no problem with it. Remember he has a turbo that actually works at those boost numbers. I've seen 1830F EGT with a 1.6TD K24 running 30psi, turbo is just way out of it's efficient range...
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My concern at those pressures would not be EGTs, but rather rods and rod bearings from excessive peak cylinder pressures.
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How many TD/TDI rod failures have you seen with wastegated turbos? ;)
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Great, if there's an issue with the rod bearings wearing out in the next 30,000 miles or the block getting a viewport, Gizmo will know exactly who to blame... ;)
I have known of half a dozen AAZ and AHU vanagons running boost in that range and none of them lasted very long. ALL of them had wastegated turbos.
How many TD/TDI vanagons have you built? How many have you even driven?
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I don't plan on running boost over 20 psi - As mentioned, I am running 14 when the EGT gets too high. What would be great is to see 18-20 when EGTs are high - not 14.
Would stretching the spring in the LDA achieve that?
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You could remove the attmospheric bleed fitting (weird rubber cap on top of 17mm fitting) and run boost to the LDA while watching to see what pressure bottoms out the pin.
If the pin is bottoming out, then you could add pre-tension to the spring (no need to stretch it out) by rotating the 'starwheel' which is accessible with the atmospheric fitting removed.
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The adjustment screw on the top of the LDA increases fueling under no boost when the screw is turned in. If you see a ton of black smoke before the turbo spools you want to back this screw out. It's a very sensitive adjustment so a quarter turn at a time is enough to notice a difference.
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You could...run boost to the LDA while watching to see what pressure bottoms out the pin.
I meant to say, regulated pressure rather than boost, so that you can see the pressure where the pin bottoms.
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Funny, I thought I'd read all the related pump stuff in the FAQ. So I went to Google and did a search for "BOSCH LDA" which linked to this. . .
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Nxg62dkLAjI/VAUHuE647tI/AAAAAAAAD_8/lcJdugKqZ1w/w399-h284-no/LDA%2BSECTION.JPG). . .
which led me to a clear explanation in the forum FAQ (including this very helpful diagram) ;D
The star-wheel (item 5 above) is RH thread I assume?
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Yes the starwheel is right hand thread. The LDA like Alcaid mentioned bottoms out quite early in relation to boost. If you put too much tension on the LDA spring it causes the spring to bind and not allow the boost pin to reach its full travel.
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Gizmoman, your goal from what I've read is lower EGT's. You've done a great job increasing the airflow and the efficiency of the motor. As long as your air intake temps are reasonable then increasing boost is the way to go. As long as you're not fueling excessively, raising the boost pressure won't raise cylinder head pressures enough to worry about. I would try and disconnect the waste gate all together and take it for a spin. Your right foot will be your regulator at this point. If boost increases over 20 psi with less throttle input then you need to work on your boost controller.
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Gizmoman, your goal from what I've read is lower EGT's. You've done a great job increasing the airflow and the efficiency of the motor. As long as your air intake temps are reasonable then increasing boost is the way to go. As long as you're not fueling excessively, raising the boost pressure won't raise cylinder head pressures enough to worry about. I would try and disconnect the waste gate all together and take it for a spin. Your right foot will be your regulator at this point. If boost increases over 20 psi with less throttle input then you need to work on your boost controller.
410, thanks for trying to assist with my "goals" - It can be hard to pin down, even for me ;D. libby and everyone else here has been very helpful. The other goal is to improve the low end torque as well. I am running a DK tranny and 1st is a bit tall (as are my tires). Turning in the fuel screw seemed to help quite a bit with that goal but it did nothing to increase boost at the top end. It seems I'm getting too much fuel relative to my boost pressure so with everyone's help, I think I'm on the right path.
As soon as the new fuel return hose shows up, I'll do a few test runs after tweaking things a bit.
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For low end torque the screw on the top of the LDA is perfect for that. It adds fuel in "off boost" conditions but it is also nicknamed the smoke screw. Screw it in too much and you'll be billowing out black clouds before the boost kicks in. This adjustment won't have any effect on the top end whatsoever. I've been following you project from the beginning. Keep up the great work.
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For low end torque the screw on the top of the LDA is perfect for that. It adds fuel in "off boost" conditions but it is also nicknamed the smoke screw. Screw it in too much and you'll be billowing out black clouds before the boost kicks in. This adjustment won't have any effect on the top end whatsoever. I've been following you project from the beginning. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Mr.
I always thought (for the last three years) the "smoke screw" was the fuel enrichment screw. A simple misunderstanding can really mess you up.
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Yes the starwheel is right hand thread. The LDA like Alcaid mentioned bottoms out quite early in relation to boost. If you put too much tension on the LDA spring it causes the spring to bind and not allow the boost pin to reach its full travel.
A stock 1.6TD pump will bottom out the LDA pin around 5psi which Gizmoman is certainly exceeding, but I don't know what Giles has done to the LDA. A Cummins 4BTA LDA will bottom out around 20 psi and it is certainly possible to swap the cummins boost spring and pin or similar.
If you crank the star wheel WAY up it could feasibly coil bind, but the stock 1.6TD spring and Cummins springs are nowhere near coil binding at the aforementioned pressures. Further, if Gizmo wants lower max-boost EGTs, one of the easiest ways to achieve that is to limit the total range of motion of the boost pin.
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Thanks libby.
So, are you saying that I should be able to raise the star wheel enough with the stock spring or should I look at getting the Cummins spring?
To answer you question myself - I can almost hear you saying to "try the test mentioned earlier to see what I have now, then go from there".
I'm also hoping Giles will give me some pointers in the next few days.
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I have known of half a dozen AAZ and AHU vanagons running boost in that range and none of them lasted very long. ALL of them had wastegated turbos.
And all of them had old-school T2, T3, K03, K14 or K24 turbos? ;)
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Cummins has a 3.8 engine running compound turbos, only 150hp but running relatively high boost and therefore crazy lean mixture (AFR 26.5:1), the resulting EGT at peak hp = 716°F ;D
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Call Giles if you can. He prefers that to emails usually.
Winding the star wheel probably won't help if you have smoke at full boost. Turning down the max fuel screw and then winding down the screw in the top of the LDA will.
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I found with my Giles pump the peak EGT was what it was with the older turbos. You could turn all kinds of screws and do all kinds of things but it would still max it out no problem. The only experience I have with the holset is I cannot make EGT no matter what I do. See the video on my thread I shared, and that is with a 10mm pump head. The only thing we are looking at is the fuel right now, I know you did some stuff to make the intake/exhaust, are you getting cold air in and hot air out?
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Call Giles if you can. He prefers that to emails usually.
Winding the star wheel probably won't help if you have smoke at full boost. Turning down the max fuel screw and then winding down the screw in the top of the LDA will.
Thanks for the tip about contacting Giles.
As for smoke, I can't see any in the mirror at 65 but that doesn't mean there isn't any.
I do believe that's the first test I will do though -
Back off on the fuel screw - even slightly back from Giles setting. This may allow more boost with less fuel, and should lower EGT's.
Turn in the smoke screw (small amounts) to improve low end.
I found with my Giles pump the peak EGT was what it was with the older turbos. You could turn all kinds of screws and do all kinds of things but it would still max it out no problem. The only experience I have with the holset is I cannot make EGT no matter what I do. See the video on my thread I shared, and that is with a 10mm pump head. The only thing we are looking at is the fuel right now, I know you did some stuff to make the intake/exhaust, are you getting cold air in and hot air out?
I have a FB intercooler, a 7 X 26" double row heat exchanger and a 3+ gallon res. Intake air at the manifold is running 20-30 degrees above ambient. I have a thermocouple in the manifold. The valves are stock and the head has a medium port job.
Obviously I have an AFR that is a bit heavy on the fuel side. I believe the biggest issue is the work being performed - the van weighs somewhere in the 5K range and is shaped like a brick. With that in mind, high EGT's are always going to show up, I'd just like to see higher boost numbers when that happens. Right now it's around 14 psi - 18+ would be better.
However, as libby pointed out, I want this engine to last. Hopefully slightly higher boost with lower EGT's will provide more "efficient" power. As it is now, it's all just turning into heat.
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And all of them had old-school T2, T3, K03, K14 or K24 turbos? ;)
You believe that peak cylinder pressures are higher with a K24 or T3 running 20 psi with EGTs @ 1250°F than with the HE200 running 30 psi with EGTs @ 1250°F?
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Did they even measure egt when running K24/T3 until failure?
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Failures were not EGT related.
Do you believe the peak cylinder pressures are higher with a K24 running 20 psi with EGTs @1250 than with an HE200 running 30 psi and EGTs @ 1250?
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Failures were not EGT related.
Do you believe the peak cylinder pressures are higher with a K24 running 20 psi with EGTs @1250 than with an HE200 running 30 psi and EGTs @ 1250?
How do you know it was not EGT related, did they have an EGT gauge or not?
Point is with the same amount of fuel the HE200WG pushing 30psi and still being efficient vs. a K24 at 20psi the EGT will be lower as AFR will be higher and the combustion cleaner. PCP should actually be lower even though boost is higher. PCP is more dependent on fuel quantity, fuel atomization, injection timing and temperature than it is related to boost. Lower EGT means less expansion of the burned gasses, volume is the same thus giving you lower pressures (PCP)
What hasn't been discussed much yet is EMP vs. IMP, a very good indicator on how the turbo is performing and how the working environment for the engine is. The HE200WG has a much more efficient turbine and also a fairly high turbine choke flow meaning you can push more psi efficiently without EMP climbing through the roof and choking the engine's possibility to breathe properly.
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Failures were not EGT related.
Do you believe the peak cylinder pressures are higher with a K24 running 20 psi with EGTs @1250 than with an HE200 running 30 psi and EGTs @ 1250?
How do you know it was not EGT related, did they have an EGT gauge or not?
Point is with the same amount of fuel the HE200WG pushing 30psi and still being efficient vs. a K24 at 20psi the EGT will be lower as AFR will be higher and the combustion cleaner. PCP should actually be lower even though boost is higher. PCP is more dependent on fuel quantity, fuel atomization, injection timing and temperature than it is related to boost. Lower EGT means less expansion of the burned gasses, volume is the same thus giving you lower pressures (PCP)
What hasn't been discussed much yet is EMP vs. IMP, a very good indicator on how the turbo is performing and how the working environment for the engine is. The HE200WG has a much more efficient turbine and also a fairly high turbine choke flow meaning you can push more psi efficiently without EMP climbing through the roof and choking the engine's possibility to breathe properly.
i think pcp is probably higher with a k24 at 20psi, k24 has a pretty small exhaust side, and the kkk turbos from that time period which i have seen compressor maps for are all pretty inefficient above 15psi. Even the t3 has a peak efficiency of only 68%, plus you're looking at a 30 year difference in technology.
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Been doing some reading on turbos in general and ran across this statement:
1 pound of boost for every 10hp is the maximum engine requirement. Overboost does not increase power. Excessive overboost increases the manifold EGT and reduces fuel economy due to the increased exhaust pumping losses. The "choke point" of a turbo charger is defined as the maximum exhaust volume the turbocharge can pass before exhaust back pressure rises drastically. Operating a turbo beyond the choke point is inefficient, drastically increases EGT, and can cause serious damage to the engine and turbocharger.
Quote taken from here http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm (http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm)
If I'm overly optimistic and assume I'm at 150 HP, that equates to 15 lbs of boost being all I should need. It seems ironic that that's about as high as it gets even with the HE200. Sure, I can see 20 (where my controller is set) but it's only a blip, then it drops off. Perhaps it drops off due to my right foot reacting to high egt's and my backside puckering a bit ;D
I get that more charge air may lower EGT's but based on the quote above, there is a limit. I would also think there's a limit to excessive boost (other than what the ARP studs can take) as the bearings and rods can be overstressed.
My cylinder is about 3" in diameter. That area is 7.06858in2. 30 lbs of boost adds over 212 lbs to the rod and bearings. Obviously this simple math doesn't account for the added fuel which will be compressed/detonated as well.
My bearings and rods are stock and probably not designed for twice the design load (if I want it to last anyway).
By the way, Giles responded to my email just now. . .
sounds like this turbo is too big for you, I would have used the HX25.
I would have to setup the top end of your pump to work better with this turbo on the test stand
Giles
Very big of him to respond to my request - a great guy. Sadly, I'm not spending much more on this. It cost 200 bucks just to cross the border :o
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How do you know it was not EGT related, did they have an EGT gauge or not?
The failures I know of were rod bearings wearing out quickly (<30,000 miles), broken main saddles, tossed rods and one case of a broken crankshaft. I know that EGT gauges were installed on most but am not sure/do not recall if that was the case for all of them.
By the way, Giles responded to my email just now. . .
sounds like this turbo is too big for you...
Unfortunately I agree with Giles. IMO, a lack of understanding about the Vanagon application resulted in bad advice when you were turbo shopping and the whole situation now sucks considering the amount of money and labor that has gone into a disappointing result.
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First off, you shouldn't believe all you read online. Psi boost multiplied by a factor is ridiculous. If it was a factor multiplied by absolute pressure it would make some sense but linearity gets screwed up multiplying with boost numbers. Factor is also dependant on engine volume and type of engine (DI, IDI, CR, petrol, alcohol)
While Giles is an excellent pump builder, he doesn't know these turbos apparantly. HX25 actually have a bigger turbine wheel and often bigger turbine housings and will always spool later than a HE200WG... HX20 would spool faster but compressor wheel is really tiny and would be a limiting factor really fast.
Do you have enough preload on the wastegate so that it doesn't open on back pressure? Can you really trust the boost controller you made yourself? Something is not right when that exact same turbo spools like the K14 on a 1.6TD and does not spool sufficient on this build. You have a home made wastegate actuator so wastegate setting is propably not as it was originally.
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The failures I know of were rod bearings wearing out quickly (<30,000 miles), broken main saddles, tossed rods and one case of a broken crankshaft. I know that EGT gauges were installed on most but am not sure/do not recall if that was the case for all
All could have been failures due to poor lubrication, old worn parts or even low oil pressure due to rebuilds while not measuring actual bearing clerarances and/or old turbos puking out hot air into the motor while choking the motor on the exhaust side with back pressure. The Vanagon failures I've seen have actually been due to lack of service, broken timing belts resulting in crashed heads and broken camshaft (!)
How many of them where using a modern turbo within it's operating range?
I am pushing 30.5psi on my daily driver 3000lbs+ 4x4, stock everything internally except 12.9 head bolts. Even done lots of laps on racetracks. Not wearing out rod bearings anytime soon as turbo is happy and capable.
A heavy car should actually assist the turbo in spooling sooner as diesel engines really need resistance to perform
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I really don't think the turbo is too big. All bench testing and maps aside, I have a slightly bigger turbo on a .3l smaller engine and it spools fine. It spooled better than a stock k24 with a couple boost leaks. I also have had conversations with Giles and he doesn't know turbos as well as some on here, not saying he knows nothing about them but he is much better with pumps.
Don't know what your issue is gismo but I would start looking for a boost leak or as alcaid suggested something with the wastegate or on the exhaust side.
If you haven't looked at my video of how my engine builds boost I think you should. You can see my egt gauge as well as how it builds boost. I have a larger pump and slightly larger turbo but I cannot get over 800f on the hottest day here *approx. 95f this summer*. I only have an air to air IC that probably is not near as good as yours.
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Less laggy than a K24 or T3 isn't saying much. IMO, a K24 or T3 are utterly unbearabably laggy in a vanagon. A K14 is irritatingly laggy in a Vanagon but has always been my stock wastegated recommendation as the K03 has so little high-end flow. If it doesn't BOTH spool faster than a K03 AND have better high-end than a K24 it is a BAD CHOICE for a vanagon. Obviously, the Holset does not do both. It's nice that it flows better high-end than all the stock choices, but that's all irrelevant to the application. In looking at Theman's video, you can't see a tach, but from the sound of the engine, that amount of lag in a vanagon would be unbearable for me. Also, in looking at the pics in that thread, if Gizmoman blows that amount of smoke in Cali it is very likley that he will get cited. Comparing the experience of a 3,000 lb passenger car is just silly. A loaded Westy can weigh in fairly easily in excess of 5,000 lbs. The frontal area of a vanagon is 2 to 3X the size and wind resistance is cod X frontal area. That makes the passenger car a little more than half the weight, less than half the wind resistance and gives an EXTRA GEAR to play with... Anyway, I hate repeating myself in a conversation. I'd like to thank Gizmoman for footing the bill on this expensive failed experiment. Hopefully it doesn't cost you too much more to get to a point of satisfaction with it. Good luck with it guys.
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I agree with both Libby and alcaid. First I would do some uphill wide open throttle runs. Then either reduce fuel or add boost to get your desired max egt. From there fine tune how the fuel is added. Some grease on the pin will tell you how far it is travelling. There are a lot more things that come in to play as well such as gear ratio etc.
Personally I would up it to 25psi. I feel that lugging an engine will cause more stress than higher boost. Think about pedalling a bicycle. Rpms higher=more airflow.
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Less laggy than a K24 or T3 isn't saying much. IMO, a K24 or T3 are utterly unbearabably laggy in a vanagon. A K14 is irritatingly laggy in a Vanagon but has always been my stock wastegated recommendation as the K03 has so little high-end flow. If it doesn't BOTH spool faster than a K03 AND have better high-end than a K24 it is a BAD CHOICE for a vanagon. Obviously, the Holset does not do both. It's nice that it flows better high-end than all the stock choices, but that's all irrelevant to the application. In looking at Theman's video, you can't see a tach, but from the sound of the engine, that amount of lag in a vanagon would be unbearable for me. Also, in looking at the pics in that thread, if Gizmoman blows that amount of smoke in Cali it is very likley that he will get cited. Comparing the experience of a 3,000 lb passenger car is just silly. A loaded Westy can weigh in fairly easily in excess of 5,000 lbs. The frontal area of a vanagon is 2 to 3X the size and wind resistance is cod X frontal area. That makes the passenger car a little more than half the weight, less than half the wind resistance and gives an EXTRA GEAR to play with... Anyway, I hate repeating myself in a conversation. I'd like to thank Gizmoman for footing the bill on this expensive failed experiment. Hopefully it doesn't cost you too much more to get to a point of satisfaction with it. Good luck with it guys.
Never had a vanagon or a k14, but I have driven people that have had a k14 when I had a k24 in the car...they said my k24 spooled faster than the k14 *aaz K14* that they were used to. I don't have a tach and all smoke is gone now that I fixed the boost leaks, and I mean 99% of the smoke. I get more smoke out of the vnt tdi. It is unknown but I would bet that the holset I have on a 1.9l aaz would spool faster than a k14 and have more than enough top end flow. The T3 that I had the 360 thrust bearing spooled faster than a VNT and this holset isn't far behind. Honestly the he221w I have spools faster than the stage 2 Malone .216 nozzle TDI I have. I think the turbo is a good choice if the van trans is up to the power. The EGT I would almost guarantee are not a fault of the turbo sizing. If I had to guess Gizmo is where I was several years ago and just needs to figure out how to tune. He may only want to run x psi, but if the engine requires more to run cooler I would give it the n psi it wants.
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How do you know it was not EGT related, did they have an EGT gauge or not?
The failures I know of were rod bearings wearing out quickly (<30,000 miles), broken main saddles, tossed rods and one case of a broken crankshaft. I know that EGT gauges were installed on most but am not sure/do not recall if that was the case for all of them.
By the way, Giles responded to my email just now. . .
sounds like this turbo is too big for you...
Unfortunately I agree with Giles. IMO, a lack of understanding about the Vanagon application resulted in bad advice when you were turbo shopping and the whole situation now sucks considering the amount of money and labor that has gone into a disappointing result.
libby, as I know you were well in the conversation during my turbo selection and provided plenty of advice (which I didn't heed), I can appreciate your current stance. I do need to clarify though, I am not disappointed in the HE200, just going through a learning curve :) . I'm fairly confident I can work this out with the assistance of this forum.
It's hard to communicate what is going on with text and emoticons - I may have made things sound worse than they are. Let me try to provide a bit more clarity using 20-20 hindsight. . .
- The old K-14 I rebuilt (including a 360 bearing) was pumping oil into my custom IC from the compressor. I worked on three different drain configurations until I made a 6 o'clock drain with sweeping curves and zero line restrictions - no change. The engine felt like it just wasn't getting enough air.
- Assuming the turbo was toast (and not producing "quality" air, I figured I had only two choices - install a used VNT17 and mess with the linkage for many untold weekends, or purchase a brand new (somewhat proven) HE200 and go from there.
- The Cummins specs were very specific on the size of the drain line (larger than I had) and that's when I found the PO's crappy restriction at the pan fitting (Darn!). I had already built an elaborate adapter and tweaked the center section of the new turbo to drain at 6 - no returning it now. So, I made a new drain port in the pan for the Holset and installed it (no oil in the compressor anymore BTW).
As it stands now. . .
I recently found a nearly 1-1/4" restriction in my 2-1/2" exhaust system. Possibly that was the only issue I had with the K-14 besides the crappy drain at the pan - I'll never know. they are both fixed now.
The HE200 is a far better than the K-14 in every respect save the lag at low RPM.
As for the K-14, it was pretty much tapped out at 15 PSI and the charge temps were higher than the IC could control. Air temps were running 212F at 90 ambient. I tossed the custom IC (which was quite sad) and installed a FB unit - it was better but still way too hot. Boost from the 14 ran at 10-12 at 65 mph and as mentioned - mostly hot, worthless air as well.
The HE200 runs at 7-8 at 65 and much much cooler (useable) air.
Both turbos would move the brick up a grade but the Holset has lowered the EGT's substantially from the 14. Obviously They still peak if I keep my foot in it but it seems that's just energy required and I'll get used to it. If I can, I'll find a way to increase boost without adding fuel. Theman's ride is certainly lighter and more aerodynamic and no, I don't want that much smoke. However, his build does show that high boost can be made without high EGT's and I find inspiration in that.
If I can't figure it out, I'm still better off now than I was with the K-14
As for the low end boost, after turning a few screws, I am now making very close to what I had with the k-14 . Once my new return hose arrives, I'll tweak the smoke screw a tad and I'm good. Besides, it's nice to know the turbo I have is new, not working hard at all, and has capacity to spare ;)
Big thanks again to all - this ain't over!
Jim
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Sure, I can see 20 (where my controller is set) but it's only a blip, then it drops off.
As I doubt you're reaching the flow limits of the turbo, that seems symptomatic of the wastegate getting blown open, as Alcaid mentioned earlier. I'd try adding preload to your wastegate, disconnecting the boost signal, and doing a buildup of accelerations (progressively adding more throttle and going to a higher rpm on each successive run) to see if your sustained boost pressure goes up. Our 1.6 is consistently holding 24-25 psi with the same turbo at fairly high elevations (usually over 6000').
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Sure, I can see 20 (where my controller is set) but it's only a blip, then it drops off.
As I doubt you're reaching the flow limits of the turbo, that seems symptomatic of the wastegate getting blown open, as Alcaid mentioned earlier. I'd try adding preload to your wastegate, disconnecting the boost signal, and doing a buildup of accelerations (progressively adding more throttle and going to a higher rpm on each successive run) to see if your sustained boost pressure goes up. Our 1.6 is consistently holding 24-25 psi with the same turbo at fairly high elevations (usually over 6000').
A very good plan - I certainly think it's worth a try and thank Alcaid and you for mentioning it (again). As soon as the new return hose shows up (to replace the now leaky junk) I can get to it. It's gonna be quite an adventure as the wife and I are heading to Tahoe in it on Sunday at the latest. Three weeks tooling about, - to think, the adventure has already started and we haven't even left yet ;D
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Sounds like a great adventure! Beautiful area -- we've spent a lot of time up there camping off of jeep trails.
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You probably know this, but if your MBC system has no leakage on the downstream side, it will hold the wastegate open or at least biased toward open.
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Thanks,
I believe I'll be removing it altogether
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I would not if you want quick spool.
~.02" hole, or I just put a small groove in the ball seat.
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I would not if you want quick spool.
~.02" hole, or I just put a small groove in the ball seat.
I think he was talking about removing the boost signal altogether, not just the mbc -- this wouldn't be a long-term solution, but merely for troubleshooting. Concur that he should reinstall the mbc (with hole or groove) once he gets everything dialed in, which is exactly what we did on ours. :)
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Ok,
The fuel line I ordered online got pushed out in shipping so I went to the VW stealership and got about 2 ft - don't even ask how much.
The injector return lines are all in and not leaking a drop. Entirely removed the DIY MBC, turned in the smoke screw on top of the LDA about 1/8 turn and went for a spin. Bottom end power is amazing compared to what it was. A few WOT runs and found boost dropping off at 12-14 psi. Went home and adjusted the rod to the waste-gate pot (added more tension).
Back on the road it now goes up to 20 psi (could possibly go more but I backed off) and while I can see the egts climbing, they taper off as boost goes over 15. You guys were right, the MBC was only messing things up.
I don't plan on putting the MBC back in. The hard hit it was providing is too tough on the transmission. I don't think I will miss it - this brick scoots just fine without it.
I think I'm getting it now - I can turn the uphill corner in 2nd gear coming home and up and away she goes! Before It' just chugged, and sometimes I even had to grind into 1st to get it moving up the hill - no more!
I'll back of on the fuel screw just a tad tomorrow to drop the EGT's some more. I may add a tiny amount to the smoke screw as well.
I can't thank everyone enough for all the help with this. And I can say without a doubt, the HE200 is a sweet turbo on an AAZ - even in a 5,000 lb Vanagon. The lag is gone and there is plenty of nice cool air to keep the EGT's in check ;D ;D ;D
We leave tomorrow on our three week adventure
Jim
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Wonderful news!
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Have a safe trip Jim :)
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Great news!
Have a safe trip Jim :)
x2
Pretty nerve-wracking to be troubleshooting right before a big trip...been there, done that.
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Always nice to hear a success story. Good work Jim. It's about time you get to enjoy all your hard work with a little holiday.
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Great news!
Have a safe trip Jim :)
x2
Pretty nerve-wracking to be troubleshooting right before a big trip...been there, done that.
It's been nerve wracking for sure - and the "personalized" camper is a big part of the adventure. I believe it will enjoy the two lane backroads and cool mountain air as much as we will. My two biggest worries now are the weird jog I had to fab in the boost pot linkage and the transmission getting hammered from the extra oompf.
If that pot rod breaks, I spoze I will be S.O.L. Possibly some bailing wire to hold the gate closed will keep me going. If the tranny craps out though, It's over. I need to keep my foot out of it.
I'd be in a real mess without this forum's help. Thanks to all ;D
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awesome. i remember when my wastegate was stuck shut i could easily control max boost with the max fuel screw, also makes a huge effect on spool up.
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My friend just tested an HE200WG turbo just like the one you are running on his 1.6TD, fully built 11mm pump, ported head, bigger intake valves etc etc. He hit 51psi of boost before turning down the boost controller somewhat, a little bit too much for a single stage turbocharger in the long run maybe ;)
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My friend just tested an HE200WG turbo just like the one you are running on his 1.6TD, fully built 11mm pump, ported head, bigger intake valves etc etc. He hit 51psi of boost before turning down the boost controller somewhat, a little bit too much for a single stage turbocharger in the long run maybe ;)
Holy crap! Stock bottom end?
BTW, I started wondering if my WG was blowing open...turns out it was. I added some preload, and we're hitting (and maintaining) about 27-28 psi with EGT generally staying below 1200 F. Very happy.
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Rosten Performance H-Beam rods (big end of those are modified to run the wider TDI rod bearings)
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Nice!
My two biggest worries now are the weird jog I had to fab in the boost pot linkage and the transmission getting hammered from the extra oompf.
Rather than having a jog in the WG linkage, you might want to consider relocating the WG diaphragm instead, and keeping the stock Holset straight linkage. Our diaphragm is offset to one side of the original mounting location using a short piece of angle iron that goes across both mounting tabs and cantilevers off of them. There's quite a bit of preload (maybe 20-30 lbs?) in the actuator, and I'd be worried a jog would make it too springy.
Probably a huge PITA at this point, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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they make the holset in different configurations and even one that looks like it would work like the oem k14 setup
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Just returned from our two week camping trip up the East Side of the Sierra Nevadas. We camped at several lakes on the East side and ended up at Tahoe. Then back down the West side camping at a few more lakes on the way.
Van fully loaded weighed 4800 lbs on the truck scales (a lot less than I thought). There were probably ten or more 5-7% grades longer than 20 miles each - a real test of the contraption.
I kept the EGTs below 1150 most of the time with a few stints at 1350 F. Water temp never went over 215F (made sure of that with my right foot). I kept my speed to 65 most of the time with a few runs at 70 going through LA.
Highest elevation was 11,500 ft. I should mention here that my boost gauge read -3 psi at the higher elevations.
When I left, I had removed my DIY boost controller and turned in the LDA screw almost 1/4 turn which really helped with low end. I also turned in the fuel screw 1/4 turn and backed off the idle as far as it would go. Boost seemed to dump easily around 14 psi. Twice I added tension to the adjustable gate rod trying to keep from dumping boost early.
I then backed off the LDA screw 1/8 turn and the fuel screw the same amount. This seemed to lower EGTs a bit but boost was still not what I was hoping for. I finally took some mechanic's wire and pulled the gate shut permanently. I disconnected the boost pot entirely and plugged the "T". This seemed to finally lower EGTs some and I can hit 20 psi but only at WOT. I still think something's off with my fuel to boost relationship but it's much more acceptable now.
The trip was fantastic and overall the engine performed flawlessly. It used 1/3 quart of oil over 1500 miles and I believe most of that was due to a few small leaks I can't seem to fix entirely. I have my vent from the hockey puck piped to a clear plastic bottle and it's got about a 1/4 teaspoon of oil in it ;D.
Loading up. . .
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tDnouwxL4BA/VCGKQfE2F0I/AAAAAAAAEBY/LJCi5A_Ecag/w895-h671-no/DSC01241.JPG)
Off the bow of the kayak in the early morning - Silver Lake, CA (just above June Lake). . .
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oYW49d30Epk/VCGK-Ws_6YI/AAAAAAAAECI/ob2J2zjQlL8/w895-h671-no/DSC01326.JPG)[/img]
Thanks to all of you for the wonderful assistance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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4800 lbs + that kayak @ 65mph...just WOW!! Do you have an idea of what your overall/best/worst MPG was?
the lake picture says it all - - congratulations on the build.
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4800 lbs + that kayak @ 65mph...just WOW!! Do you have an idea of what your overall/best/worst MPG was?
the lake picture says it all - - congratulations on the build.
The weight included the kayak - I thought I'd be closer to 5800 myself. Besides, the wife had every nook and cranny stuffed with something ;D
Best mileage was a sad 22 mpg - average was 20. I was hoping for more but it's shaped more like a toaster than a Lamborgini. Sleeping is better though ;)
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Hmmm. I average better than that in my high top while towing a loaded trailer.
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For mileage that bad you must be boosting all the time. Mine got a few 28mpg when I was taking that trip to SD, but the entire tank was 7-10psi, if I keep it under 5psi I get low 40s mpg.
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Hmmm. I average better than that in my high top while towing a loaded trailer.
For mileage that bad you must be boosting all the time. Mine got a few 28mpg when I was taking that trip to SD, but the entire tank was 7-10psi, if I keep it under 5psi I get low 40s mpg.
I am running a guestimated average boost of 6-8 psi most of the time. The K-14 ran around 10. The only way I could keep the boost under 5 would be to stay on side streets and never go over 35.
Any clue what the cause may be? I have a lift pump that I should remove, but from what I've read, it doesn't change the IP output enough to worry about.
I do run low boost - just not often. Here is a shot running along the 395 North. Flat with a very slight tailwind. . .
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RudTytPdxVI/VCLPvkLhevI/AAAAAAAAECk/mlPRCYa0zdY/w979-h734-no/DSC01251.JPG)
63 MPH, 4 psi, 876 EGT, Oil pressure 23 (the OP is not correct - actual is closer to 33 psi - new gauge on order)
I'm sure my milage would be better if I stayed around 50-55. If I had to do that, I'd just sell it.
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Just for reference, a vanagon getting 20 mpg is about the same as a jetta getting 30 mpg.
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A fully loaded one with a kayak on the roof, that MPG is quite acceptable. It is an IDI after all and they will never be up to the fuel efficiency of a TDI
I have done 61.9MPG driving long distance with my '10 Passat wagon, 1.6TDI commonrail engine, no cat, no DPF and a custom tune ;)
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Just for reference, a vanagon getting 20 mpg is about the same as a jetta getting 30 mpg.
OK - I get that the mileage is not good - if this was your rig, where would you start looking for issues?
I'd back off on the fuel screw a bit but go power would suffer greatly and as far as I know, there's no smoke.
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International forum members should bear in mind that we use US gallons which are smaller than Imperial gallons. US gallon is 0.83 Imperial Gallon.
Your mileage isn't horrible, just a little less than I would expect even given the kayak on the roof. As I mentioned, my high top gets better than that while towing a loaded trailer. I averaged 25 mpg on a trip to Colorado towing a trailer loaded with a complete AAZ engine, a spare vanagon 5-speed, three high tops and the windows/vents to go with them. My high top is an AHU so that would account for a 15% (3 MPG) increase in fuel economy, but my experience has shown that the high top takes away some/most of that gain at highway speeds. Towing a trailer loaded in that manner would be similar to the kayak on the roof.
Low fuel economy is hard to track down as EVERYTHING affects fuel economy. There are three basic categories that affect fuel economy: aerodynamics, rolling resistance and drivetrain tune. Often too much focus is on the engine. There is also often a lot of time and expense required for small changes. I would personally take the approach of driving more, enjoying the van and tracking fuel economy. Depending on the results, go from there. For reference, your van moderately loaded cruising flat ground (round trip or no wind) at 65-70 mph with your AAZ engine and no kayak on the roof should average 27 mpg with everything is reasonable tune.
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International forum members should bear in mind that we use US gallons
My numbers where in miles per US gal. 3.8 liter / 100km to us Europeans
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Thanks libby.
To be honest, I'm pretty happy with it as it is.
I wish I had nothing better to do than fiddle with it but I have a house renovation I have been putting off.
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To be honest, I'm pretty happy with it as it is.
That sounds to me like the best approach. :)
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The kayak and rack are probably - >2 MPG, killing the boundary layer over the entire surface of the roof.
Driving slower
perfect alignment and tire pressure.
Cruise RPM should be at peak torque, not sure where you are at.
My Xcab 4x4 is close to that if I can keep it under 70, so I'd think you have some room to improve.
Read this? https://cumminsengines.com/uploads/docs/cummins_secrets_of_better_fuel_economy.pdf
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A westy even without a kayak already has the boundary layer destroyed by the luggage rack. The cd of a westy is 14% worse than a tin top just because of the luggage rack. I'm not saying the kayak didn't also have a significant effect but probably not the full 5-7 mpg.
Stock AAZ peak torque is at 2,000 rpms. I'm sure it's a fair amount higher than that with the Holset. Regardless, gearing for highway cruising at peak torque for an AAZ in a vanagon may not be the best approach if your cruising speed is 70-75 MPH. To maintain those speeds on moderate grades with rpms at peak torque will likely require enough of an increase in torque that the transmission will not survive well. IMO, for a vanagon, it is much more cost effective in the long run to gear shorter, cruise with more power but less torque and replace the trans less often.
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Don't want to rain on anyone's parade--I certainly understand the efficiency and thrift side of owning a vw (wouldn't daily drive one if not, eh? ;D), but for something like a vanagon that (I would imagine) gets used only for vacations etc., for myself I wouldn't get too worked up about 'lower than expected' fuel economy, especially for anything that isn't getting driven across the entire U.S. every summer like my family is used to. I mean, we're talking about spending x amount of money on a number of different things to go have a good time; is another 50 bucks (or less) for fuel per trip really worth a massive, potentially ongoing headache trying to track down what combination of things is causing an issue that may not even exist in the first place?
You've done a fantastic job with the build--I guess I'm just saying that if I had just finished something like what you've accomplished here, it might be nice to just enjoy it for a while before pulling hair out trying to fix the ways that it doesn't fully live up to every expectation.
Whatever you end up doing, I'll be reading your updates with interest :)
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For mileage that bad you must be boosting all the time. Mine got a few 28mpg when I was taking that trip to SD, but the entire tank was 7-10psi, if I keep it under 5psi I get low 40s mpg.
I had 20-30mph head winds and was boosting hard to get that horrible tank. I also had 600lbs of gear with me. I know it wasn't good, but the wind was the killer. The Giles pump I have is set to really start giving fuel at 5 psi and the more boost you run the more fuel you get, to a point. 10psi for 5 hours straight is a ton of fuel. I think the areo/wind was 90% of the bad mileage. I was also doing 70mph most of the time. Pretty windy in Iowa, Mn, and SD for whatever reason. I think that is why they had all the wind farms along all the roads.
Gizmo, bottom line is if you like it that is all that matters.
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I really appreciate all the comments. I'm not going to spend any more time or money on it at this point. The #1 goal was to build reliability into it. Goal 2 was to be able to do 65 mph on the local freeways, even when loaded. I was worried about the transmission when I left but it held up fine.
I passed the 200K mark on the odometer about 75 miles into the trip and it's 32 years old. One day we took a day trip North from our campsite and got trapped out by a fire that closed the 395. While we were sitting in a small town tavern sipping a cold brew, a local cowboy mentioned a dirt road around the closure and we went for it. 46 miles of corrugated single lane torture that climbed to 11,500 ft - 1st gear switch-backs and all.
Heres a shot of one of the smoother sections. . .
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-siyuB2KtwRw/VCQ4qsgLbBI/AAAAAAAAEC4/fC_3aRgsgsk/w597-h796-no/20140912_161516.jpg)
Everything survived save the crappy oil pressure sender. I had just replaced it before the trip relocating it off the engine using a 1/8" grease-gun hose. It was mounted hard to the engine bay but the corduroy road still beat it into producing silly numbers. I'll just let the next sender hang loose off the hose.
Other than the sender, both goals have been reached.
As I've said many times, without this forum and all the contributions from every one of you, this would have never happened.
Jim
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Try doing a dyno run when you get the chance, that'll tell you a lot about the drivetrain drag as well as the engine output.
I'm at the same point as you, just tired of fuxing with it all the time. :P
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Try doing a dyno run when you get the chance, that'll tell you a lot about the drivetrain drag as well as the engine output.
I'm at the same point as you, just tired of fuxing with it all the time. :P
Thanks, but a dyno run would just have me wrenching on it again and it purrs like a kitten - albeit a hungry one. I may change the oil after the 1576 mile trip and add the new pressure sender unit. Other than that, I'm just going to enjoy it.
Here's a foreshortened video of the trip if you have 10 minutes.
http://youtu.be/FB7h19Rs67Q (http://youtu.be/FB7h19Rs67Q)
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Nicely done video! After all the work you've done, you deserve to be rewarded with a beautiful and problem free trip.
What's the deal with the grease gun hose for the sender? Seems too stiff and to much mass for such application. Is it a electric sender?
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Thanks, the video was a blast to make - time consuming though.
The sender is electric. The gauge set is from Glow-Shift - I like the look and it auto dims at night but it's a cheap gauge. Wish I had gone to something more robust.
Originally I had it mounted to the engine and the vibrations took it out. The grease gun hose is quite flexible - about 12" long. I figured hard mounting the sender to the engine bay would be fine but didn't count on going off road. As you can tell in the video, the road was pretty brutal as far as shaking things up. The 40+ miles took over three hours. The video doesn't show the grades I was climbing as there's no perspective, but I had to drop into 1st several times.
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I'm just going to enjoy it.
True to your signature. Well played.