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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jetmugg on June 16, 2014, 01:27:27 pm
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It doesn't cost anything to think, but when you start buying parts, the $$$ can add up in a hurry.
Anyway, this is for a racing-only application...
Alternator is not needed.
I just had a vision of running a dry sump pump, roughly mounted in the location that my alternator currently occupies. It's a low-mount alternator, using a non-A/C bracket. I'm basically using the alternator as a way to tension the water pump belt, as there are no other accessories. The vacuum pump has had its vanes removed.
Picture with me - a "Gilmer" style toothed belt, running off the crank pulley, turning a toothed pulley on the water pump, and a toothed pulley for a dry sump pump...
Can I completely ditch the factory vac pump at that point, covering the hole with a plate? I'm trying to picture in my mind's eye if there are any oil passages that require the presence of the stock oil pump and vac pump driveshaft.
Custom oil pan, 2 scavenge fittings, oil pressure delivered from the dry sump pump to the front of the block (through a remote filter setup). Maybe a 6 or 7 quart oil tank...
Help me visualize any obstacles (other than $$$) to this plan.
Thanks,
Steve.
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I will go check my window block and see if I can tell if there are any holes for oil in that area. I do not know. The only obstacle that I see is the toothed pulleys but for money anything can be made. Maybe for the crank pulley you could cut the nose off of a crank pulley and bolt it on directly to the other crank pulley? Water pump I don't know.
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That's a good idea about "stacking" the crank pulleys. I already have the dimensions of the bolt pattern, and have a pre-drilled length of aluminum rod with the correct pattern.
I can get belts and various blank pulleys from industrial supply houses. I think that there are enough options in belt length to allow it to work out. I can get the pulleys machined "on the clock".
One of my circle-track friends has volunteered to donate a 3-stage pump from a midget engine that he no longer uses.
This could get interesting!
Steve.
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You can't just ditch the vacuum pump since its gear drives the oil pump. Some early non power brake Rabbits had no vacuum pumps. They had a short gear and a block off plug held down by the vacuum pump hold down. If you can't find one of those, you could certainly cut down and plug the base of a vacuum pump for the gear to run in. I think that I may have an old 1.5D around here that may have that stuff in it. I will look in the next couple of days.
Why Gilmer belts? I know they look racy but they are noisy and eat lots of power. I don't think that they will do anything for you that a much cheaper and more versatile V belt won't. Or better yet, poly V.
What kind of racing BTW?
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Land speed racing. If I go to a dry sump setup, the internal oil pump isn't used. The cogged belt would drive the water pump and external 3 stage oil pump.
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But why a toothed belt? A poly V belt may save you as much as 10 hp.
What kind of car?
You may need to replace the bushing that the oil pump shaft rides in. It blocks off the gallery and IIRRC there is a substantial hole to lube the shaft that you might want to plug. You may just be able to turn the bushing 90* to close off the passage.
Are you considering ash canning the whole intermediate shaft as well? It would be free hp.
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A toothed belt should actually require less power to drive than a V-belt, as the toothed belt doesn't rely on tension and friction to drive the accessories. Less energy is lost to heat, and the belt tension can be much lower, which saves bearings. In industry, we use toothed belts whenever possible.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/27833.pdf
In practice, dry sump pumps generally run on toothed belts. Moroso and others have pretty extensive lines of pulley options to drive the pumps.
The vehicle is an '84 Dodge Rampage, powered by a 1.5L VW turbodiesel.
(http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/Dodge%20Rampage/DSC_1870_zps7acfb0f4.jpg)
That information about an oiling hole in the block (for the vac pump and OEM oil pump shaft) is what I was hoping to find. I have a block in my garage that I can take a look at, but was just hoping for someone to chime in and say for sure.
I would plan on retaining the IM shaft, using it as part of the OEM path for the timing belt routing. It "might" be possible to completely do without the IM shaft, but would require more extensive engineering.
Steve.
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I agree, a toothed belt is the lowest HP usage by far. Here's a shot of my IM shaft bearings (two ball bearings stacked)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BMsJnAAOCG8/U6A7kG5pX8I/AAAAAAAADrc/nKWd1tAXJZw/w900-h675-no/DSC00383.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-spI4p_oNd6k/UViV3aulkCI/AAAAAAAABlY/bhK1SO709F4/w900-h675-no/DSC00385.JPG)
A Smalley spiral ring holds them in place and I found an oil seal that fit as well. I cross-drilled the oil port which is now blocked off by the bearings. If I had it to do over, I'd have used a slightly smaller drill diameter
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ctrdI_MvJrI/UWCyasueBzI/AAAAAAAABoo/0iI3tzYODXw/w900-h675-no/DSC00328.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i1T_PWYRTJc/U6A_Qd5WykI/AAAAAAAADr0/pSC2p-gh2dI/w902-h675-no/IM+SHAFT+MACHINE+DRAWING_noname.jpg)
I turned down the shaft to lighten the rotating mass ind balance it better.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XvAkuJhvuQs/U6A9OukhyhI/AAAAAAAADro/9iH50JLJ2UE/w902-h675-no/IM+SHAFT+MACHINE+DRAWING.JPG)
BTW - that last shot of your car is very nice.
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toothed belt is also less likely to slip, which is the main reason i'd use one.
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Wow - talk about nice :o - double roller bearing conversion for the IM shaft, with a REAL drawing of the part. Very nice.
Was the shaft ground to size, or turned in a lathe? I manage a small manufacturing company with both shaft grinding and CNC lathe capabilities. Looking over the horizon, I can definitely see that I might like to "borrow" this design. REALLY nice work there, Gizmoman! Do you happen to have the dimensions for the keeper groove? If not, no big deal, I think I can find recommended dimensions from Smalley.
I don't want to bug you to death with questions, but is that the cross-drilled hole at 10:00-ish position in the upper photo?
I'm pretty excited about the future of making power from a 1.5L turbodiesel. I managed to set the H/DT record in Ohio, and will be running on the salt flats (a lifelong dream) in August. After that, I would like to bump up the power some more, with an eye towards running the same engine in some other LSR vehicles.
My Rampage is a pretty handy test bed at this point. I'd like to be able to set it up lower to the ground for one thing, which will be made easier with the addition of a dry sump system. A dry sump would also provide a lot of peace of mind when running at Bonneville - especially if I can get to the "long" course, which is 5 miles running at essentially WOT.
Thanks again. That's really innovative work!
Steve.
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If you ditch both the stock oil pump and vac pump, there is no need for the intermediate shaft at all. I'd block off the hole and install an idler in the top hole to maintain wrap on the injection pump.
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If you ditch both the stock oil pump and vac pump, there is no need for the intermediate shaft at all. I'd block off the hole and install an idler in the top hole to maintain wrap on the injection pump.
That sounds like a do-able plan. Keep it simple. I need to take a look at a spare block to determine how many oil passages would need to be plugged.
Steve.
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Tip for pulleys for this setup is to get t-belt conversion for G60 engine, both crank and vaterpump will fit, an then there are 2 ekstra pulleys that you can use for the oilpump and maybe keep alt?
If you want to run witout alternator anyway, you can use a normal t-belt tensioner to tension the v-belt, alternator takes some hp away from the wheels...
Do you even need a battery?
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I need the battery the start the engine, run the circulation pump for the intercooler ice water, electric fuel pump, and to provide voltage to the gauges. Before a run starts, and after it is complete, I also want to run the electric radiator fan.
I will have a look at the G60 conversion possibilities.
Thank you,
Steve.
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Nothing in the article listed says anything about Poly V belts which I have read are more efficient than toothed belts.
Also what advantage do you think you gained by installing ball bearings on the IM shaft? 1/4 of a hp?
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I need the battery the start the engine, run the circulation pump for the intercooler ice water, electric fuel pump, and to provide voltage to the gauges. Before a run starts, and after it is complete, I also want to run the electric radiator fan.
I will have a look at the G60 conversion possibilities.
Thank you,
Steve.
FWIW I had a bad alt for about a week and didn't know it as I do not have a volt gauge in car and the red light didn't work. I drove it over 450 miles before realizing the cranking was getting slow. I ran the heater, 100w H4 lights, and everything as normal *stock electric rad fan* as I didn't know. If you put it on a charger between runs and keep it topped up you will never need that alt. is what I am getting at. The gauges and fuel cut off work down to about 7v, so you can kill that battery before it wouldn't run the truck. And since we don't really have ignition draw it would take many hours of operation even with a fan to get there, you should be done in less than 4 minutes :D
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Well, depends much of the size battery, but if every pound counts i would have no Alt and a really small battery. Just start it with jumper cables and then don't kill it.
Check how much power you really need, its really not much!
To have a battery powerful enaugh for a several cold starts in a row would be a waste here?
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Nothing in the article listed says anything about Poly V belts which I have read are more efficient than toothed belts.
Also what advantage do you think you gained by installing ball bearings on the IM shaft? 1/4 of a hp?
Wasn't looking for HP gains really, just thought I'd share the concept.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7O79V9ouok0/U6GMnmzP-mI/AAAAAAAADs4/PELcwRwGAls/w448-h312-no/v-belt+VS+Synchronous.JPG)
I agree with libby's idea of no IM shaft at all - just an idler sprocket with bearings inside. If a guy machined a new steel "cap" with a stub shaft that fit tight into the block (sleeve bearing removed), the two bolts that hold the cap on would be sufficient.
Everything was turned on a lathe. The shaft is really quite soft - cast iron IIRC.
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..... The gauges and fuel cut off work down to about 7v, ...........
But they will not be accurate. They will read much lower than actual.
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Shedding battery weight is not a goal. At Bonneville, additional weight does not hurt, and often helps. Power output and aero drag are the biggest factors. Getting the truck lower, and delivering as much HP to the wheels are the fundamental goals.
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..... The gauges and fuel cut off work down to about 7v, ...........
But they will not be accurate. They will read much lower than actual.
right, the voltage regulator for the guages brings voltage to 10 volts, so sometime before the battery goes below 10 volts the gauges will no longer read accurately. this is on the factory cluster, aftermarket could be totally different.
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I was just saying that I did a weeks worth of starts and drove almost 500 miles before I noticed hard starting. I am implying that he would be fine with ditching the alt and charging between runs. He has all autometer sport comp iirc and do not know what they would do at those volts for sure. Both my same autometer and stock gauges seemed to keep going relatively to each other, but I have no clue as to what voltage I dropped down to.
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Shedding battery weight is not a goal. At Bonneville, additional weight does not hurt, and often helps. Power output and aero drag are the biggest factors. Getting the truck lower, and delivering as much HP to the wheels are the fundamental goals.
I understand that aero drag and power output are much more significant, but additional weight increases rolling resistance. How can that help?
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The salt is traction limited. For higher powered and faster cars, they have problems staying "hooked up". More downforce is needed when traction suffers. Aero downforce means much more drag than static downforce (weight). A lot of Bonneville cars intentionally add weight to maintain traction. Fast roadsters (like 32 Fords and such) can weigh as much as 6 or 7 thousand pounds in race trim. 1/2" thick steel plates built into the floor pan, lead filled cage tubes, water ballast are all common techniques.
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That makes sense. Thanks.
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I would also look at trying to loose some rotational weight, for every 1-lb of rotating weight you can shed its worth the equivalent of 7-lbs of standing weight. So if you have a wheel/tire combo that is 30-lbs as a set, and manage to get it down to 25-lbs as a set, you basically lost 35-lbs of weight that you need to get in motion, and keep it there. The drysump system is also a good place to pick up some horse power & reliability. But you must be careful of some issues that could poke up, if you are able to pull any vacuum in the crankcase, you could pull the oil away from the wrist pins (so get them DLC coated just to be safe), also some seals are not drysump friendly. They will actually pull off of the shaft they seal against and leak, or cause dirt to pass. (if you are able to get a crankcase vacuum, normally with a 3 stage its hard to get crankcase vacuum, but you may see a slight amount since the area you are pulling from is a small crankcase area)
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I am definitely keeping my eyes open for dry sump goodies for next season. For Speed Week in August, I'll be using the larger oil pan, windage tray, and extended pickup tube. A reliable supply of oil, added capacity, and more ground clearance are the big benefits.
With respect to roaring weight, that's another area where more weight is often used to add stability (inertial stability). Many Bonneville wheels use solid steel centers welded to steel rims. Bonneville racing tires are also very heavy, and are regularly 8, or even 10 ply.
Land Speed Racing is not the same as drag racing. The long course at B-ville is 5 miles long, and traction is a limiting factor.
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I've used a bunch of Gary's stuff.. http://www.drysump.com/Volkswagon.htm
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I am definitely keeping my eyes open for dry sump goodies for next season. For Speed Week in August, I'll be using the larger oil pan, windage tray, and extended pickup tube. A reliable supply of oil, added capacity, and more ground clearance are the big benefits.
With respect to roaring weight, that's another area where more weight is often used to add stability (inertial stability). Many Bonneville wheels use solid steel centers welded to steel rims. Bonneville racing tires are also very heavy, and are regularly 8, or even 10 ply.
Land Speed Racing is not the same as drag racing. The long course at B-ville is 5 miles long, and traction is a limiting factor.
Really appreciate your detailed explanations - Interesting stuff
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I've used a bunch of Gary's stuff.. http://www.drysump.com/Volkswagon.htm
Thanks.
I've looked through his website, but still have a lot to learn about what pump and mounting setup will work for my application. Are you running a dry sump setup on any VW 4-bangers?
Steve
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I've used a bunch of Gary's stuff.. http://www.drysump.com/Volkswagon.htm
Thanks.
I've looked through his website, but still have a lot to learn about what pump and mounting setup will work for my application. Are you running a dry sump setup on any VW 4-bangers?
Steve
No, mostly good ole American v8 stuff