Post by: Gizmoman on June 11, 2014, 05:58:22 am
After nine attempts to stop it, it still leaks.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Pfgby50CU5Q/U5ZSyyqDGCI/AAAAAAAADn8/TBR_suBB1y4/w957-h718-no/DSC01120.JPG)
The cover is flat
Surface of cover looks like new and it's not twisted. I have also inspected along the entire edge to insure there is nothing hitting once it's tightened down.
Head is new KS
Gasket is the third one, still looks like new
Tried High Tack Permatex, Black, high oil resistant oil RTV, Copper form-a-gasket, Ultra grey RTV
Dabs in the corners of the cam cap (of most of the above).
A thin coat along the entire bottom edge (of most of the above)
My last attempt was clean, clean, clean (using acetone) and no sealer at all. This seems to be the best seal yet but it still leaks.
On every attempt I let it sit overnight before starting it up (except the last one because there was nothing there to cure).
My next attempt may be hylomar or the permatex equivalent "Perma-Shield". Silicone (RTV) is good at filling bad/porous surfaces but I have none. I wish I had never put it on there because I actually think it made things worse. You can never completely remove it without wire wheeling or sanding the surfaces. Also, silicone is very slippery and I fear it has made it impossible to seal. Hylomar on the other hand is urethane based and would have sealed much better but it may be too late now.
For some reason. my old head had six taped holes around the perimeter which would have been for the cast cover - I wish this one did as well.
Has anyone ever had to buy a new cover (if they are still available) that fixed the issue. I know a lot of you have had no problems with this. I am looking for those that have, and found a fix I haven't tried yet.
Post by: vanbcguy on June 11, 2014, 06:39:07 am
From what I've read the cover, head and gasket need to be bone dry. If any sort of sealant is used (other than at the ends of the cam caps) supposedly the gasket squishes around out of place. In my hunting around for the "fix" to the AHU gasket I didn't find anyone having success using anything other than adhesive-type products to keep the gasket in place but I haven't gotten there yet myself.
Post by: Jetmugg on June 11, 2014, 06:45:22 am
I feel like it's easy to get uniform coverage with the Hylomar spray, whereas it's more difficult to achieve even coverage with RTV type products that don't want to spread evenly.
Steve.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 11, 2014, 12:32:00 pm
Post by: vanbcguy on June 11, 2014, 04:36:42 pm
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Post by: Gizmoman on June 11, 2014, 05:36:04 pm
I'm going to spring for a tube of Hylomar and put a light coat on all surfaces. Agreed the the spray gives a good even coat, however, spraying the head while its in the van would take a serious masking job unless I want a lot of stuff blue and sticky ;D.
I wish the FLAPS carried it but they seem to be stocked up with chrome skull door lock knobs and spinning hub-caps.
Vanbcguy, are you running the stock hockey-puck breather?
Reason I'm asking is I had to make my own as my "custom" intake manifold is in the way of the stock one. It's now a can type affair stuffed full of stainless steel scrubber pads and vents to a catch bottle. When I blow through the contraption there is slight resistance. When I blow through the stock breather/hockey puck, there is none at all. Possibly I am building a bit of crankcase pressure which is making it leak.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 11, 2014, 08:37:05 pm
AAZ valve cover has no perimeter bolts, just the 3 center ones.
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Is it possible oil is leaking out of the 3 center bolts, or from elsewhere, dripping wicking to where it "appears" to be leaking? If the valve cover and head is perfectly flat and the gasket is well made, hard to imagine it leaking there, especially after 9 attempts.
Post by: Gizmoman on June 11, 2014, 09:43:17 pm
I have rubbed my finger tips over everything more times than I care to admit, the wife would be jealous. Rub, look, touch, look, you get the drift. I'ts the cover, along the lower edge where the oil rally flows - probably looks like Niagara Falls in there. The three flange nuts and related bits under them are bone dry.AAZ valve cover has no perimeter bolts, just the 3 center ones.
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Is it possible oil is leaking out of the 3 center bolts, or from elsewhere, dripping wicking to where it "appears" to be leaking? If the valve cover and head is perfectly flat and the gasket is well made, hard to imagine it leaking there, especially after 9 attempts.
My guess, is possibly pressure as I mentioned earlier. As soon as I get back to it, I'm gonna remedy that and see what improves.
Post by: vanbcguy on June 11, 2014, 11:05:32 pm
I have mine down to a very light leak on one corner, which I will admit I got a vacuum line stuck under briefly while putting the cover on last time. That may well be the source of my issues at the moment.
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Post by: Renax on June 12, 2014, 03:00:07 am
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Post by: vanbcguy on June 12, 2014, 07:23:41 am
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Post by: Gizmoman on June 12, 2014, 05:12:57 pm
With these covers the nuts go down flush with the cam cap, compressing the various rubber seals around the bolts in the process. You can't torque them any further. The design prevents damage due to overtorque.Good to know you cant over-torque them.
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I built a wooden support fixture and turned a chunk of steel to match the concave surface inside the cover. Then I pressed them out a bit checking several time for changes. The goal was to insure the perimeter sealed before the bolt rubbers.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K66bqxhgS4Y/Uu1ZdELzRaI/AAAAAAAADm8/t7kPWiWftqc/w957-h718-no/DSC00794.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PApGXnMh6vE/Uu1Zd-Y-B3I/AAAAAAAADm4/x-fnZzRbiQY/w957-h718-no/DSC00793.JPG)
I ordered a tube of Hylomar yesterday and will also insure my DIY vent has no back-pressure. I'd say that with the Hylomar and removing the slight back pressure should solve the issue but after nine tries, all bets are off till proven.
It will be next week before the hylomar arrives (can't ship fast due to chemicals)
Post by: GEE-BEE on June 12, 2014, 06:48:35 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Valve-Cover-Gasket-Set-Reinz-WD-EXPRESS-fits-96-97-VW-Passat-1-9L-L4-/121341851653?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AVolkswagen&hash=item1c4089b805&vxp=mtr#ht_1101wt_1206
I had no problem with mine, I did install and new cover thou
GB
Post by: Gizmoman on June 12, 2014, 07:02:47 pm
I used a Beck Arnley 036-1658 It looked pretty good though. I'll bet there's a high probability they both get them from the same manufacturer.
It sat in the shrink-wrap for a while and the loop over the cam cap was folder over. It fit fine though once in the groove.
A lot of guys have had success but most don't have the 50 degree vanagon install which isn't helping.
Also, I think I have a tiny bit of back pressure and have fixed that.
I'll keep everyone posted.
Post by: Toby on June 12, 2014, 07:31:53 pm
The easiest way to solve this is to use GOOD RTV used in the proper way. Much of it is crap for sealing engines. The ones marked "OEM grade" are far better than most of the others. The black stuff appears to be more rigid when set up than the gray. If it does not say OEM on the package, its not the right stuff.
The best way to seal any 2 surfaces is to use a bead of RTV and NO gasket at all, but this is not always practical. RTV is useless unless you get every trace of grease and oil and dirt off of both surfaces and keep them oil free for at least 24 hours, preferably more. Once RTV sets up it is impervious to almost everything you are likely to encounter in automotive use. Oil contamination before it is completely set will prevent it from ever setting up.
It is vital that all surfaces be completely oil free and ALL surfaces to be sealed must be coated with RTV. If you have just the tiniest skim coat on other surface before assembly it will not leak once set up. Coat one side only and sometimes little channels form in the RTV and you will have leaks. Coat both surfaces and you are golden.
You do not need a ton of RTV, just enough to seal, so gobbing on huge amounts just means that it will collect somewhere in the oiling system.
What has been said here about RTV and gaskets is spot on. Never use a gasket if you can help it. The factories don't. The RTV just turns into a great lubricant and the gasket usually spits out somewhere. If will often split down the middle between bolt holes. The proper procedure for sealing things with RTV when you cant eliminate the gasket is to coat all four surfaces with a light coat of RTV and then assemble the parts, BUT DO NOT TORQUE THEN DOWN. tighten them just enough to pull everything together. After the RTV has cured then torque every thing down. This will seal very well and not allow the gasket to spit out because is is glued in place.
Post by: Gizmoman on June 12, 2014, 09:05:46 pm
. . . because it is glued in place.
That would be a last ditch effort. I may want to remove the cover to check timing or replace the belt at some point A stock gasket with no sealer would be the goal but not sure if I can get there.
I have cleaned every surface with continuous blasts of brake cleaner - go through a can every time. I also douse the rubber gasket as well to remove even traces of oil from clean hands. The goes on a new pair of surgical gloves before I even pick it up.
Post by: Toby on June 13, 2014, 01:58:16 am
Post by: Gizmoman on June 13, 2014, 06:52:11 am
No, getting it not to leak is the goal. Peeling the cover off when it has been RTV-ed is not a big deal. I RTV everything I touch and it is never an issue. It will add a couple of minutes to your dis-assembly. And it won't leak. The factories RTV everything they can instead of using gaskets for a reason.I have read that making the entire gasket from RTV is the trick - tossing the stock gasket out. The idea would be to put a nice bead (slightly thicker than the gasket) on a spotlessly clean valve cover. Then spray the head (I have a spare head on the bench) sealing surfaces with a light coat of oil. Gently position the cover making sure it's centered on the conical rubber washers. Let it sit for 24 hours or more.
Remove the assembly, clean the oil film from the RTV and head, re-install and torque. I would then have a perfectly "matched" gasket.
Thoughts?
Post by: GEE-BEE on June 13, 2014, 08:01:16 am
I had the same problem on my aaz
Post by: RabbitJockey on June 13, 2014, 08:07:21 am
its a bad cover, not the gasket
I had the same problem on my aaz
this right here
Post by: libbydiesel on June 13, 2014, 08:11:03 am
Post by: Gizmoman on June 13, 2014, 05:23:45 pm
Is there a new AAZ valve cover available somewhere? Buying a used one would be a crap-shoot.
The cover I have looks perfectly fine. As I mentioned, it checks out for flatness along both flat faces and has zero twist as well. The only other thing in the bay up that high would be the cam seal. The engine sits a bit down-hill (lower at the back of the van) and oil is seeping out along the left edge of the head - so I have ruled the cam seal out.
The Hylomar arrived today - possibly that will take care of it.
If someone knows where I can get a new cover, let me know.
Post by: Gizmoman on June 17, 2014, 05:34:44 pm
Post Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:18 pm . .
I've been at it nearly all weekend (on and off between other projects).
I really got intimate with the cover after finding none available (if you know of new ones please post a link).
One issue with the rubber gasket - we are really sealing two cracks; one between the cover and the gasket, and another between the gasket and head.
Any-who, I found the left lower corner to be bent slightly upwards. I started by checking the width of the flanges and the front was narrower by 0.01" not much I know, but I am seeking perfection at this point.
I did some tweaking on my steel bench with a dead blow and some spacers and feel it's very flat across all four corners (now it's the same width as well).
EDIT I've decided to let it sit another day. If it's not sealed now, I may go to the guy selling these motors used and see if he has a cover. I sent him an email
With a new gasket placed on the head (I have a spare), I buffed the flange of the cover with a wire wheel till it was a bit grainy and spotless. Next step was to squirt a narrow bead of The Right Stuff on the flange and lay it on the gasket mounted on the head. I laid a few chunks of steel on top - maybe three lbs, and let it sit for six hours.
The gasket is now nearly part of the cover and sits relative to the head. There will be no leaking from that joint.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hFCNu59Gtjk/U57lGR7-I5I/AAAAAAAADqs/Yz-nIbOmMn4/w900-h675-no/DSC01132.JPG)
One down, one left to go.
On the joint between the cover (with gasket firmly sealed to it), I used Hylomar (both surfaces). Let dry for ten minutes and assembled.
Posted: Today 4:23 pm. . .
I did my "take it to work" test run toady to check for valve cover leaking.
It's about 26 miles each way, southern CA freeway (65 is slow), three long grades averaging about 2%.
When I arrived and peered under the back, there was no oil dripping off anything - good sign.
On closer inspection, there is a tiny amount running down the head in the typical place - just a whole lot less. Smile
I'm tempted to quit now but it will be a mess after a few K miles so I'm going after it one more time. My guess is the dabs of HYLOMAR in the corners of the cam cap weren't enough. Once I get it off, it will be clearer.
BTW, I called the local VW dealer and a new AAZ cover is available - about four days (from Texas). The cover is $242.33 + tax.
I think I'll give this one more try possibly tomorrow afternoon.
If my next attempt fails, it's new valve cover time - I despise oil leaks.
Post by: GEE-BEE on June 23, 2014, 06:22:21 am
It will be drilled and tap the the head for the g60 valve cover...
Just another option out there..
GB
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 23, 2014, 07:00:59 am
Nothing a hammer, a block of wood and a straight edge won't fix.
Post by: Rising on June 24, 2014, 07:03:46 am
Its the rear passenger side of the head always so I am starting to be suspicious of my valve cover.
Considering giving it one last go by tossing the rubber gasket and just using "the right stuff" on the head and assembling... Not sure if that's reasonable or not, but I'm so tired of this leak.
Might go down to the junkyard and find a cheapo 8v mk3 cover to throw on and see if that helps...
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Post by: theman53 on June 24, 2014, 07:14:11 am
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 24, 2014, 07:42:49 am
I never had a valve cover seal until I got a G60 aluminum one. They always leaked. No amount of flat hammering or vice work did the trick. I haven't tried an aaz or ahu cover yet, but I am sure they will be problematic as well.
The well rusted valve cover on my 92 Eco always leaked, until I took it out and straightened it with a hammer, block of white oak and a straight edge. Now it does not leak anymore (with the updated one piece gasket). I got a G60 valve cover for $10 at a VW meet but have not installed it yet because there is no pressing need to do so.
I have found the best way to tighten the valve cover nuts is not to use a torque wrench but to tighten them down in stages, by feel. Most important to not over tighten (easy to do) and warp it again. First tighten nuts just beyond finger tight, get the engine nice and hot and look for leaks. If it leaks, tighten nuts equally a little more while it's hot. Repeat above till the leak stops.
Post by: wolf_walker on June 24, 2014, 07:49:17 am
of "cheap" motors with nice solid aluminum covers. I re-used an ancient gasket on a 22RE Toyota the other week and it didn't weep a bit.
It's why everyone says use the G60 piece.
Can the G60 piece be drilled to mount with center bolts?
Post by: theman53 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:38 am
Post by: Gizmoman on June 24, 2014, 07:54:49 pm
I'll be getting back to it though.
I'll try the "not-over-tight" method.
Post by: libbydiesel on June 24, 2014, 10:09:40 pm
Post by: Gizmoman on June 25, 2014, 02:35:12 am
It seems Hylomar is better at metal to metal (although it's leaking less than it ever did before). I believe it's leaking at the Hylomar joint by the cam cap.
I'll do RS on the lower flange and the cam cap.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 25, 2014, 07:58:28 am
Post by: Gizmoman on June 29, 2014, 05:53:27 am
If it leaks now, I'll just replace the engine ;)
Post by: nissannx on June 29, 2014, 07:42:31 pm
Post by: Gizmoman on June 30, 2014, 06:42:32 am
Problem solved? Does it still leak?
I will let you know as soon as it's back on the road again. I was "adjusting" the complicated shift linkage under the van over the weekend, and broke the 32 year old plastic bits at the end of the shift lever - waiting on new parts now.
Good Stuff really is good. When I had it off this time, I inspected the previous application of Good Stuff between the gasket and cover (mentioned earlier in this thread) and it looks flawless - like one part. This time the GS was applied on the gasket face (pressurized can and nozzle make a nice thin, continuous bead). Then I gently set it onto a spotless head. I seriously doubt it will leak after this but hope I don't have to remove the cover anytime soon.
Will update as soon as it's running again.
Post by: Rising on August 27, 2014, 10:10:29 am
I never had a valve cover seal until I got a G60 aluminum one. They always leaked. No amount of flat hammering or vice work did the trick. I haven't tried an aaz or ahu cover yet, but I am sure they will be problematic as well.
I just received my brand new one piece rubber gasket and cast g60 Valve cover today. I'm already using Allen bolts vs. Studs so installation should be a snap. My question is: with a new rubber gasket and cast valve cover can I install this dry? Or should I add something to it? My last attempt with the old one piece rubber gasket and stock cover was with the right stuff on both sides of the gasket all the way around and let it sit over night and I still got a (smaller) leak. So I'm a bit paranoid at this point.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on August 27, 2014, 02:50:12 pm
Post by: Gizmoman on August 27, 2014, 06:01:04 pm
Post by: theman53 on August 27, 2014, 08:54:00 pm
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on August 28, 2014, 06:10:35 am
Do you have a 50 degree engine?
No I do not. Does it matter? If the gasket has not achieved a perfect seal, both will still leak. The 50 degree engine will leak more because of pooling.
Post by: Gizmoman on August 29, 2014, 05:51:01 am
Well, I'd say more like flooding ;D. Apparently I'm the exception to the rule. I believe I have stopped it 99.9%. I did find that the brand new rubber grommet at the hockey puck leaks a tad as well - that's how full this thing gets! I believe the 1.6 has a drain in the head that is lower so it drains much faster. The 1.9 head has a higher drain and doesn't drain nearly as well. No expert though.Do you have a 50 degree engine?
No I do not. Does it matter? If the gasket has not achieved a perfect seal, both will still leak. The 50 degree engine will leak more because of pooling.
Post by: Rising on September 05, 2014, 12:53:09 pm
After my last attempt failing (rubber gasket and the right stuff on both sides) I ordered me up a g60 valve cover and a fresh victor reinz rubber gasket kit. Painted and polished the valve cover up and then installed it and my gasser intake. Lightly torqued all the Allen bolts in the same pattern as the head bolts incrementally getting tighter until it felt pretty snug holding by the head of the ratchet. Still leaks on the timing belt side where it always had but worse that with the stamped cover and right stuff. I'm about to lose my mind.
Should I snug the bolts down a bit more? I've heard not to overtighten these since its just aluminum. But how is it possible that its still leaking!!! At least its prettier ::)
(http://s24.postimg.org/f1p39pyad/IMG_20140905_083654.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
image url (http://postimage.org/)
Post by: theman53 on September 05, 2014, 05:51:13 pm
Post by: Rising on September 08, 2014, 08:45:56 pm
Do those go bad often? I've never pulled the cam or anything
Dunno about the PO.
That makes a lot of sense with the place it's leaking. Its getting all over my tbelt and throwing oil around :( I tightened it down a bit and it seems to have cut the leaking back a bit. Might have just been a little gingerly on it the first time and had some oil coming off the back of the head. I'll take it off this weekend and do as advised. If it persists I guess I'll pull the cam... Gulp :-[
Post by: vanbcguy on September 09, 2014, 09:32:09 am
Post by: bajacalal on September 09, 2014, 04:47:29 pm
I never had a valve cover seal until I got a G60 aluminum one. They always leaked. No amount of flat hammering or vice work did the trick. I haven't tried an aaz or ahu cover yet, but I am sure they will be problematic as well.
I just received my brand new one piece rubber gasket and cast g60 Valve cover today. I'm already using Allen bolts vs. Studs so installation should be a snap. My question is: with a new rubber gasket and cast valve cover can I install this dry? Or should I add something to it? My last attempt with the old one piece rubber gasket and stock cover was with the right stuff on both sides of the gasket all the way around and let it sit over night and I still got a (smaller) leak. So I'm a bit paranoid at this point.
I don't think silicone makes a good seal with rubber so I don't put it on the gasket except for one spot, which is the front side of the head where that loop of rubber rides on top of the cam bearing block/seal housing thing. I put the silicone in the corners where that meets the flat part of the head and all along the groove the rubber rests in, I mostly do this to keep the thing in place because I've had them move out of the groove when I installed the valve cover and it leaked there. I also use the actual G60 gasket instead of the rubber-metal composite one. The G60 gaskets I've got were flexible and had little rubber tabs that protruded down and gripped the head, they work really well.
Post by: Toby on September 09, 2014, 09:58:57 pm
Did you RTV the cam bearing cap? I have seen lots of leaks there.
I have also seen seal bores no longer concentric with the the centerline of the cam.
Either way, use a new VITON seal, not a black vinyl one. They have a very short life especially if not lubed on installation. Lube the inside of the seal with CLEAN grease and RTV the seal into the head and cap and put a dab of RTV on the mating surface of the cap as well.
Use ONLY OEM RTV. If it does not say OEM on the box its not. If you can't find it, try any dealership. Ford and Chevy will likely be cheaper than VW. Every auto maker uses the stuff. Not one uses the so called "super whiz bang ultra" parts store stuff.
I used to think that lubing a new seal was BS until I worked for a German import shop that did a lot of older vehicles. Every one that I did not lube was back in 3 weeks leaking again. (Guess who got to fix 'em for free?) None of the lubed ones ever leaked a drop. Vinyl Seals are such crap they need every advantage just to do there job at all.
If you don't believe this go and buy a rear main seal for a Volvo or Ford 2.3 from the dealership. They come pre greased.
Post by: vanbcguy on September 10, 2014, 06:47:09 am
I ended up using some Permatex High-Tack Gasket Adhesive. Used brake cleaner on all the surfaces, used some cardboard to mask the head and did the adhesive spray on the head, the gasket and the valve cover itself.
Now I need to fix my leaky power steering high pressure hose... joy.
Post by: Rising on October 21, 2014, 07:31:15 am
Post by: theman53 on October 21, 2014, 08:26:06 am
I got mine fixed! It was the cam seal
Told ya :D Not all people put the cam seal in correctly.