VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: mark3kid on May 14, 2014, 07:24:08 pm
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hey there guys.
so i built myself a 1.9td aaz as my first car. i have been driving it now for about the last year. for upgrades i have
a full rebuilt engine
Giles super pump
arp head studs
T3 turbo (which i dislike)
Front mount intercooler
tdi crank
I also have a custom ground Dr.diesel cam that I still have to put in.
I put the car on the dyno last year with a k24 but the wastegate was seized and would only make about 10psi.
The car made 108hp and 160 torque
over the winter i put a t3 on and i find it very slow spooling compared to the k24 and it will also only make 20psi and most.
I am looking for your guys opinions on turbos. im looking for 160hp at the least. The only idea i have for a turbo right now is a VNT 17/22. I realise the work and money to do that but as they say you have to pay to play. so any opinions are welcome
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From what I read the T3 is a bit bigger than the K24 and that is why it will spool slower IIRC. The Holset he211w that Alcaid has for sale in the for sale section is dyno proven to do just what you want. If you could find a similar sized Mitsubishi turbo they are built almost identical to the holset from what I have seen.
If you do use an older style T3 or K24 get it built with a 360 thrust bearing, it will like it better and spool better...way better.
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From what I read the T3 is a bit bigger than the K24 and that is why it will spool slower IIRC. The Holset he211w that Alcaid has for sale in the for sale section is dyno proven to do just what you want. If you could find a similar sized Mitsubishi turbo they are built almost identical to the holset from what I have seen.
If you do use an older style T3 or K24 get it built with a 360 thrust bearing, it will like it better and spool better...way better.
What he said !!
1.9, Giles pump, K-14 blahh - HE200 (or 211) yeah baby!
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What's your budget?
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Well I'd like to keep it under 1500 but if it is closer to that I want at least 180whp
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Well I'd like to keep it under 1500 but if it is closer to that I want at least 180whp
Send a PM to Alcaid http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=586 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=586)
Great to work with and can hook you up for well under your budget.
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With the He211w I think Alcaid can do them for under 700.00, check the for sale section. If you do all the fab work and buy all of the pieces to connect it together you would have another 300.00 in parts. I did 3" mandrel bends for a downpipe, gaskets, manifold, drain line *I had an oil feed line already*, silicone couplers and clamps for the IC, and modding or building an intake to the turbo is what the parts list is IIRC.
It has been dynoed by Alcaid somewhere around the 170hp mark.
FWIW I would never put a turbo like a 17/22 vnt on. I like the vnt turbo boost ideas, but they are just too small. I have a 2256v off of a sprinter that I am thinking of using on my jeep, just because I don't think I could get the money out of it selling it. I would rather have a holset.
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You can get he200w for $520 shipped
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Holset-Turbo-HE200WG-Cummins-ISF3-8_1385924368.html
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I like the way the he211w sounds. Does anyone have any experience on here with them? Also any pictures of the down pipe and how it was made. And also the Clearence with the intake manifold and how you make it fit to the exhaust manifold?
Thanks for the help guys!
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The link provided is a Chinese copy and not the real deal IIRC.
I have the same frame holset in my build thread part 2...every thing I reply to has it in my signature.
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Could you give me the page number? Haha lots of pages looks great though
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31758.330
page 23 it starts and just keep going from there.
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I just finished reading the entire thread. I was amazed by the amount of work. It seems like a lot of work for a 17 year old kid haha. How well do you think the bottom end will hold up? Also have you tried full petal yet?
Thanks guys!
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The bottom end will hold up fine I think. The biggest worry is dropping another precup like the last engine. This is running way cooler than the last engine so I don't think it will as fast if it does. I may take the head off here and see what stuff looks like.
I did go full pedal the other day for about a 1/4 of a second. I wanted to see what would happen or if I would break anything. I am still worried about breaking stuff, but all it did this time was go faster.
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the way you talk about that turbo just keeps making me happier keep me in touch with the power of the car please?
so i am still doing my reasearch but so far for what i want that turbo looks like the one. but im not sure i will be able to do all the fabrication.
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It would be easier to do 2.5" instead of 3". The 3" only comes in bends that are 4.5" radius and larger IIRC from what I found. 2.5" pipe comes in bends that are closer to 3" radius...again IIRC, it has been a bit since I was into it. Whatever you do, please Vband it. I can take off my down pipe in less than 5 minutes if it isn't hot. Getting it back on doesn't take much either.
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Could you make a size comparison for me? Is it smaller then a t3? Or larher. Or maybe take a picture next to something?
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Could you make a size comparison for me? Is it smaller then a t3? Or larher. Or maybe take a picture next to something?
What are you talking about here?
If it is the turbo, the physical outside size of it is about like the AAZ K14, it is smaller than the t3 and K24. I had a pic with my hand on it, but I have decent sized hands.
If you are talking the downpipe, then it is way bigger than the T3 pipe
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That answered my question I was just wondering the physical size. It makes seems to make very good power for the size.
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That answered my question I was just wondering the physical size. It makes seems to make very good power for the size.
It is all about design. It is way bigger than the t3 or k24. The exhaust housing is pretty much 2x as big as the T3.
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These Holsets are also 20-30 years newer technology than those ancient laggy low-powered T3/K24 turbos and neither of those live for long at 30+ psi from experience
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so on a side note i have been having a little issue ever since i had the car running. right now it seems like a little slack of power even when i have 20psi. not really sure what could cause the lack of power. here is a video of what happens if you come onto it if its the first couples times since you started driving. it happends if it is warm or cold.
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/th_IMG_1529_zps2b085c81.jpg) (http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1529_zps2b085c81.mp4)
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Something isn't right.
What have you checked already?
I would start with the shaft play in the turbo as that is easy. Tons of other stuff to check, but I will wait for your list of what you have done.
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This has happend with 3 different turbos. No fuel leaks runs fine after it does that
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so I smoke tested my intake today to see that my wastegate seemed to be leaking. does anyone know how that would affect power/boost? I currently make about 20psi but it should be more then that and the car seems way under powered.
its leaking from where my finger is. (this is not the turbo on the car)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140520_172350_zpslmlqeqcq.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140520_172350_zpslmlqeqcq.jpg.html)
thanks for the help guys
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Is the wastegate leaking out of that small hole on the bottom of the can, or where it meets the turbine housing? isn't that where the other end of the diaphragm bleeds to atmosphere so it doesn't get hung up? If so you might have a leaking diaphragm, which means eventually the diaphragm will have a larger hole in it and the wastegate will cease to function.
As far as the missing and grey/white smoke, I think you might have a combination of leaking turbine shaft seal and either bad injector or head gasket. Are you losing any coolant over time with no evidence of leakage? I'd try getting your injectors tested before taking off the head and checking for a bad gasket. Hope it isn't a prechamber.
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Head gasket and prechambers were done probably a week before that video was taken. The injectors were rebuilt and balanced by Giles. For the turbo I think I am going to fix my k24 waste gate and run that until I have the funds for a larger turbo
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Could you make a size comparison for me? Is it smaller then a t3? Or larher. Or maybe take a picture next to something?
K-14 left, Holset HE200 on right.
The efficiencies have improved substantially in 20 years
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-41iVEBhVIvE/Uw6Nj0TdfYI/AAAAAAAADEQ/ZGsb_hBVNog/w959-h719-no/DSC00898.JPG)
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would the he211w be bigger then that?
also what do you guys think of the HE200wg? would it be to big??
thanks for the help guys
the car is coming off the road tonight (hopefully) and i am going to be sending the pump to giles to get it tuned for about 35psi and i am going to fix a few things and get a turbo to put onto it and put my custom ground dr diesel cam in it. hopefully it all goes well and i can make almost 200whp! fingers crossed all the parts start to come together!!
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So I finally got tired of used turbos. I ordered a he200wg from Alcaid. I can't wait for it to get here. Is there any suggestions that I should do before I put it on?
What exhaust manifold is best? The one I have seen on ebay go straight out. Not sure if that would make a tight fit between the turbo and the firewall.
What pyrometer do you guys run? Also what is the danger zone for heat on these engines?
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Generally speaking you want to keep EGTs under 1200F. Maxing out at 1400F under hard acceleration for a couple of seconds is fine but you want to be below there for say long hill climbs.
For your pyro it is mostly important to find one that has a small probe. I'm using an Auber Instruments one, the Aircraft Spruce "micro" probes are great too. Avoid the big fat VDO or Auto Meter probes, they react slowly due to the amount of time it takes to heat the probe itself up.
Any gauge that has a range from about 300F to 1500F would be ideal. That will let you cool down the engine properly. They pretty much all use K-type thermocouples so for the most part any probe should work with any gauge.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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I vote for the micro spruce as I haven't seen anything react as fast as it does, but I am biased. Also I like my gauge to go down to 200f as I don't like to shut it down until then. Even syth oil likes to cook if you shut it down at 300f and the heat soak creeps up to ??? I have seen mine go up 100f after shut down. Also, when I did my turbo I bought the ebay ex manifold. It does come about 1/2" from the firewall, but it fits and mine is a little different than yours. If I were going again I may just make one, and would recommend you do as well if you have the welding skills. The best thing you can do when making your downpipe is to put V band on each end of it. It takes a ton of time to set it all up, but when you are done it is so nice. I can remove my DP in about 3 minutes if it isn't hot, and replacing it isn't much harder. I would run 2.5" from the turbo all the way back. I honestly do not think you will see that much EGT with this turbo and a stock pump, but time will tell.
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My EGT runs at 330 or so after a normal run. I'd have to let it idle for a long time to get it below 200 - if it could even go there.
What could be done to lower idle temps at the EGT?
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Maximum reading of the probe is 2000F. I have seen it read -35F as well on cold winter mornings.. So yes, the gauge reads down to absolute cool down. Which I like, because I can see my engine idling at 215F when at operating temperature.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_26&products_id=231
For that price, it is completely unbeatable.
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I've got the Auber probe too. Seems super fast to react - I have it on my turbo computer so I can look at logs. It seems to track the accelerator perfectly.
I cool my motor down to about 165C before shutdown. I'm usually about there by the time I finish backing in to my driveway.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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^^
Yeah I am really surprised how quickly it cools off after a hard beating.. I very rarely ever have to let it cool off! Three residential roads off any main road to get to my driveway, and by that point I am usually closing in on the lower 300's (Fahrenheit) even if I was just hot dogging it up the main roads..
It can even track the amount of extra fuel added to keep the idle stable when I turn on a higher powered accessory.. I don't see how it could be any more accurate. ;) I am very pleased with that purchase for sure. I use one for EGT and BOOST. Red and Blue respectively.
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The one linked above is the one you guys recondmend? Price is crazy cheap!! And looks good quality. This thread is amazing! :)
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Hey guys just wondering where is the best spot to put the probe at?
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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In the center of the exhaust manifold BEFORE the turbo. Ideally you want the probe to be sitting right in the center of the manifold outlet to the turbo.
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Good to know that before I put the manifold on. Thanks
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well a little update
turbo came today : ;D ;D ;D
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140616_154133_zpsbyftmubr.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140616_154133_zpsbyftmubr.jpg.html)
now question time. how do I clock the intake side? or do I not?
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Congrats. You will really like this turbo but it may take some fiddling.
Hopefully you won't need to re-clock the housings, just possibly the middle section (the boost gate rod needs to stay aligned). Any rotation of the two housings will throw off the factory adjustment.
To rotate the inner section, remove the V-clamps. You'll find a pin inside that keeps it from rotating. Remove the pin.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NyDO_WR9LZI/UxzjrCRHXiI/AAAAAAAADLs/q720v4M3Pxw/w900-h675-no/DSC00990.JPG)
The goal is to have the oil drain clocked at 6:00
If you need to rotate the scrolls out of alignment with each other, you'll need to make a new bracket of some sort to mount the can on. Mine was an extreme situation (50 degree Vanagon)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5E6udGcKrM0/Uxzjzlcoj_I/AAAAAAAADNY/_moVABkciBU/w900-h675-no/DSC00976.JPG)
I also had to cut the tab for the can off because it hit the head.
A bit of interesting info - snail in Latin is helix
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as you see in his pics that pin in the housing keeps it from rotating, so you cannot just compress the snap ring and twist it. The cold side has to come off and the pin pulled. I left the pin out on mine, it hasn't rotated yet.
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so my manifold arrived on friday. sadly i havnt had much time to do any work at all on the turbo setup is coming together slowly. my concern right now is how do i get it on the manifold. the flange is right but the problem is that there is not enough room to fit a bolt in there to tighten it, ??? im hoping someone has a suggestion?
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_165206_zpsjjuezwfl.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_165206_zpsjjuezwfl.jpg.html)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_165210_zpsazq1dxbi.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_165210_zpsazq1dxbi.jpg.html)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_214627_zpsl6qahwas.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140621_214627_zpsl6qahwas.jpg.html)
and yes my mother is not happy with me keeping my car parts on the kitchen counter
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Studs in the turbo.
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I think I used a m8x16 or x20mm long hex head. No issues?
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The problem I'm having is how do you fit it into the hole with such tight areas? It doesn't look like you physically enough room.
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Studs in the turbo.
Yup ^^
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my flange finally came in the mail :)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140709_171759_zps6gklaokn.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140709_171759_zps6gklaokn.jpg.html)
so guys Im just wondering. so where the actuator comes out into the dp does that not have to be blocked off????
sadly I have had zero time to even touch the car since I started my new job. but soon enough ill get to work on it :)
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Not positive I understand the question but here is the one I built:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jlnpl0mPJKU/UxNpGBjuCTI/AAAAAAAADI8/goC4sfutJ6c/w900-h675-no/DSC00925.JPG) The extra tang is for a brace to the block.
The gate should only open once you've hit either the boost setting of the turbo, or the setting of a boost controller.
Until you hit that pressure (I think stock is 30 psi but Alcaid could verify), the gate will stay closed due to the spring pressure in the pot.
I believe you can also adjust the opening pressure with the knurled sleeve-nut on the actuator rod from the pot. Less tension = lower max boost.
I'm using a DIY boost controller and have it set to 22 psi. A quick search should net you plenty of posts on building a controller.
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yup that answered my question :) and thanks for the photo helps for reference!.
as for the boost well im not sure yet. ill figure that out once I get it ready to run
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Good to see you finally received the flange. I figured out what happened to the last one, I shipped it to another guy as I mixed up the addresses.... ::) nice quote in your signature BTW ;)
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Its one of my favourite car quotes Lol can't wait to see if its true
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so the final piece of the puzzle showed up today!!!
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140725_180322_zpsxaurg1uc.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140725_180322_zpsxaurg1uc.jpg.html)
and because I have not shown you guys the car this is going to be in here is a picture of that I hope you like it
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140427_204652_zpsxdbvyokj.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140427_204652_zpsxdbvyokj.jpg.html)
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For my sons dd build were using
1.9 ahu
ko3 hybrid
aaz intake ./ ported polished form extrude a hone, its like a mirror inside
new ahu head assy polished from extrude a hone
Rover pump
new injectors
g60 vlave cover mod ( drill and tap )
2.5 downpipe and exhaust
trying to make a plug and play
100 mm axles
mk11 spindles
ctn trans/ cable shift
You will enjoy the Giles Pump
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Is that the car or what you hope it looks like when your done?
That is a very nice looking auto sir. Hard to imagine hearing it go clack, clack, clack
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Super nice ride !
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yes that is the actual car. hood needs work now sadly after hitting a deer and my intercooler tubing blowing off into the hood. but still fixable. also here is a picture of what the engine looked like. i am doing a little different colors this time
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/20130324_180711_zps526e989b.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/20130324_180711_zps526e989b.jpg.html)
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Here's the flange I made for our HE200WG, prior to hitting the rough spots with a die grinder and welding it:
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p541/jmaddocks/DSC06499.jpg) (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/jmaddocks/media/DSC06499.jpg.html)
I ended up grinding a small relief for the wastegate flapper to give it a little extra travel (it was hitting the edge of the oval outlet).
Just got the car running about two weeks ago. We're running about 25.5 psi (at an elevation of 6200'), and it's a blast to drive. It's been a great father-son project (he gets his license in two weeks) and has literally transformed the car. We're in the process of installing a lightweight flywheel and beefier clutch, since the stock clutch started shredding itself pretty quickly with the newfound torque.
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Looking good :) nice to hear it is up and running
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Very sweet!
I love my Holset HE 200, just wish it spooled quicker than 2K for my 5,000 lb van with tall tires (not the turbo's fault),
Maybe I need to turn up the fuel ;D
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Looking good :) nice to hear it is up and running
Thanks, Petter! We are very, very happy with the turbo. It was probably a lot more work than an OEM setup, but the results have exceeded our expectations by far. My goal was to build something that would keep up with modern traffic, but the car is actually...dare I say... *fast* now. During yesterday's shakedown run of our new clutch, we were out on a little country road, and a Mk3 GTI caught up to us and got right on our rear bumper. We slowed down and did a couple of accelerations back to the speed limit. The GTI faded away pretty quickly each time. Okay, it was an 8V GTI, but still...
Very sweet!
I love my Holset HE 200, just wish it spooled quicker than 2K for my 5,000 lb van with tall tires (not the turbo's fault),
Maybe I need to turn up the fuel ;D
Thanks! Yeah, thankfully it seems to be a great match for our ~2200 lb Jetta. It spools reasonable quickly (even at altitude), much quicker than the T3/T4 in my 16vt corrado, but I'd call it more of a horsepower setup than a torque setup. The midrange is impressive, but it keeps pulling to redline. Can't wait to get an AAZ head on it...
At first, we were consistently maintaining about 21 psi, but turning up the fuel simply increased our EGTs. I said, "well, I guess that's it". Then I noticed there was a little bit of black smoke under boost, so I disconnected the wastegate. Voila, 24.5 psi with no smoke, and EGTs spiking below 1400 F. I subsequently turned up the fuel a tad, and we're hitting 25-25.5 psi, but occasionally spiking EGT to the high 1400s, so I can't go any higher (EGTs stay in the "safe" range if we shift earlier). Next step will probably be water/alcohol injection to recover some EGT margin, along with ARP studs and a metal HG. Here are the highlights of our current setup:
- Mk2 Jetta 1.6d
- HE200WG
- Cast 8V T25 exhaust manifold, cleaned up and gasket matched.
- G60 intake manifold, also gasket matched
- FMIC
- 2.5" turbo-back exhaust, techtonics over-axle w/ resonator, no rear muffler
- Auber instruments dual-channel gauge w/ EGT and boost
- 9.5 lb flywheel w/ 16V PP
- NA LDA pump, governor mod, modified for boost input, trying to source a stiffer aneroid spring...
This is my first experience with diesels. I have to say it's been a lot of fun. :)
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Both of you need bigger pumps, you are propably running your 9mm pumps with looong injection duration giving you higher EGT and PCP than needed. With enough fuel you really need the wastegate hooked up to keep the boost at the level you want it to stay at.
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Yeah I think an 11mm pump is going to go on mine. I see maybe 800f and I am controlling idle with the fuel screw, but I have a 10mm head
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I'm not a pump expert and have no desire to change mine.
Just for the record though, mine is a 1.6 pump tuned by Giles. I also purchased four new injectors from him at the same time. I asked him to get in the 120-150 HP range and he said, OK.
I'm not getting any smoke I can see. Would turning in the fuel screw help with lower end?
(sorry - don't mean to derail this post)
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More fuel = faster spool
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Both of you need bigger pumps, you are propably running your 9mm pumps with looong injection duration giving you higher EGT and PCP than needed. With enough fuel you really need the wastegate hooked up to keep the boost at the level you want it to stay at.
I never would have imagined a bigger pump would help w/ EGT, but that makes sense.
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More fuel = faster spool
Thanks, I'll give it a try
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Hey guys. Anyone know what to use for the bolt for the feed line? Does the adapter out of the stock vw turbo work?
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Use a M10x1.25 banjo bolt or use an M10x1.25 to AN4 adapter with a copper washer to seal
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Use a M10x1.25 banjo bolt or use an M10x1.25 to AN4 adapter with a copper washer to seal
x2. I originally bought an alloy M10x1.25 AN4 adapter off ebay, but had some concerns about its longevity in a harsh temperature/vibration environment. Ended up using one of these with a copper washer:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-592045ERL (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-592045ERL)
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im hopping to try and get that fiting somewhere local i dont feel like waiting a couple weeks for shipping.
so i am going to be bolting the turbo in this week hopefully and soon get it running :) :)
we made our bracket and got everything mounted
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140921_175332_zpsaszmpcbe.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140921_175332_zpsaszmpcbe.jpg.html)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u388/mark3kid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140921_201400_zpsqp3wfnps.jpg) (http://s1065.photobucket.com/user/mark3kid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140921_201400_zpsqp3wfnps.jpg.html)
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Hey guys
So car is running and it works good but I do not like the cam as it won't start easily with it in. I'm wondering what the waste gate is set at. I currently only make about 18psi and it pulls hard but my egts are crazy high. But i do have a bad leak on cylinder one between the head and manifold so gopeffuly with the stock cam and the turbo spooling off and 4 cylinders the egts will drop. I'm glad the site is back online :)
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Fix that leak and get that boost up, more boost lowers EGT.
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FWIW, I have a 1.6 pump with a giles tune.
I went on a long trip a month back and tuned it as I went (tightening the gate rod).
I ended up wiring it shut with mechanics wire. It's great now and I can hit 20 at WOT for a short hit.
Egt's are quite a bit lower while freeway driving but I can still reach 1140 if I want to.
No expert on turbos but my guess is I'm not inputting enough fuel or should I say, at the right time.
I'd enjoy fiddling with it if I had time, but I don't and it meets my needs at the moment.
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Well today we fixed the mafold leak and well no more leak. But it still does not creat anymore then 12psi. Drives great but high egts. I'm going to check my pump timing but what else do you guys think I should check?
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Turn up the pump ;)
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How high are the EGTs?
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Egts could go way higher then 1400. And i think there is tons of fuel I think. Any way I can tell?
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Is boost flattening out? If so you need to put more preload on the actuator as it is opening too soon.
To lower EGT you need more boost
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Right now I have the actuator blocked off. I just disconeccted the vacume line. Makes a bit more boost but only 2-3 psi more. Today it seems like I have a boost leak so I'm going to look into that. It is running really rough at idle so I also need to look into that.
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How is timing set on the pump?
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Not sure because I did the can swap back to stock. And I have not had a chance to check yet. But I went to my local vw expert and we believe I have a bent valve. Any chance that would affect boost?
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A bent valve will not be good for anything :(
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Haha well that's a good way to put it. I'm checking pump timing and compression tonight and hopefully that will give me a result even if it is good or bad.
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so i did a compression test
#1 380
#2 300
#3 400
#4 400
seems to me number 2 has a bent valve or broken or well something is wrong haha. what should it be? i heard 450psi
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so i did a compression test
#1 380
#2 300
#3 400
#4 400
seems to me number 2 has a bent valve or broken or well something is wrong haha. what should it be? i heard 450psi
i believe 400 is the limit, below that and ur either worn out or have some type of issue (hg, burnt/bent valve, cracked head, toasted rings)
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I'm not really sure my local Volkswagen guy said that is not to bad. We did pump timing and that fixed the running rough problem but still low boost and high egts. I even turned the fuel up and no change. Next is to smoke the intercooler and piping
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Hey guys so this is coming apart this winter for a rebuild after 25k I'm going to put rings in it and get the head checked out anything suggestions on anything else I should check? Also how is your guys cars working? I havent been able to check on much lately?
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Also how is your guys cars working?
Ours is running great. ~26-27 psi, and EGT stays below 1200F with a third-gear pull. We get quite a bit of wheelspin in second. It's a lot of fun, and we still have a lot of room for future upgrades. ;)
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Right now I have the actuator blocked off. I just disconeccted the vacume line. Makes a bit more boost but only 2-3 psi more. Today it seems like I have a boost leak so I'm going to look into that. It is running really rough at idle so I also need to look into that.
Boost can push the gate open even against the raw spring pressure of the pot (even with the hose disconnected). Try using bailing wire to make sure it stays closed.
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I'm just wondering if anyone has this turbo mounted up to a trapazoidal flange? Pics?
If I mount mine like that my cold side hits my PD intake.
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schnell snail performance makes an adapter to run a t25 flange turbo on a ahu/1z manifold
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How much pre-tention do I put on the waste gate?
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How much pre-tention do I put on the waste gate?
Knowing what turbo you have might help as there are a few experts here (I am not one). As I had to re configure the one on my brand new HE 200 to get the drain clocked at 6:00, I made a simple gauge to measure the stick-out of the pot rod before I took it apart. Once I had the new lash-up built, I just adjusted it to the same length.
Otherwise, trial and error and a boost gauge will get you close. From my limited experience, it's more than you may think. I am currently running with mine wired shut and have never hit more than 22 psi. I also have the boost hose to the pot disconnected/plugged. The hose from the turbo compressor just goes to the gauge.
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I'm just wondering if anyone has this turbo mounted up to a trapazoidal flange? Pics?
If I mount mine like that my cold side hits my PD intake.
I originally looked into mounting our HE200WG with the OEM trapezoidal manifold. The turbo and G60 intake manifold were trying to occupy the same space with the exhaust manifold upright. Flipping the manifold over caused interference problems between the turbo and rear engine mount. We ended up going with a generic 8V turbo manifold with T25 flange.
How much pre-tention do I put on the waste gate?
You need a buttload of pretension. I just realized a couple of weeks ago that we needed more tension on ours, so I tightened the knurled wheel adjuster as far as I could by hand. With the actuator disconnected (c-clip removed), there's probably a 1/4 inch gap between the diaphragm rod and the wastegate actuator arm, such that it would be impossible to connect the two back together (i.e., to install the c-clip) by hand.
Between adjusting the wastegate actuator and fixing a pretty big leak in our intake manifold gasket yesterday afternoon, our boost is way up and EGTs are way down. My son hit 31.8 psi last night at 1/2 throttle with EGT below 1000 deg F. He was going to build up to full throttle on the way to school this morning. I didn't get any phone calls, so it must not have blown up. :)
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I'm just wondering if anyone has this turbo mounted up to a trapazoidal flange? Pics?
If I mount mine like that my cold side hits my PD intake.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by trapazoidal flange, but on my car we just welded a t25 flange on top
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1499906/Mk4%20TDI%204motion/Photo%2007.04.14%2021%2023%2024.jpg)
This is on a ARG engine (ALH but with stock wastgate turbo). I adjusted my pre-tention yesterday. Now I hit 1.7 bar @ 2600 rpm, but it overboost now, so I might have overdone it a bit
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My son said he's hitting (and holding) about 32 psi at full throttle. Max EGT is around 1100 deg F. I might try adding a bit more preload on the wastegate, but I don't want to push our luck with OEM stretch bolts and fiber HG. Needless to say, we're extremely happy w/ the Holset -- the car is a blast to drive. I'm thinking about replacing the T3/T04e on my Corrado w/ an HX35 or HE3xx series.
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If anything you can probably get better performance by reducing the boost a little given your low EGT numbers. You've got more air than you need right now. Knock it down to say 28 PSI and I bet your EGTs will barely be over 1250 but you'll reduce the back pressure on your engine.
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Needless to say, we're extremely happy w/ the Holset -- the car is a blast to drive. I'm thinking about replacing the T3/T04e on my Corrado w/ an HX35 or HE3xx series.
Good to see that you are happy Jason :)
I like your idea of getting rid of the acient T3/T04e and replacing it with a Holset, funny thing is the bigger ones are priced close to the small HE200/211 ones. On E85 a HX35 can give you a ***load of whp!
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I like your idea of getting rid of the acient T3/T04e and replacing it with a Holset, funny thing is the bigger ones are priced close to the small HE200/211 ones. On E85 a HX35 can give you a ***load of whp!
Yeah, I'm happy with the top end performance of my ancient Garrett, but it takes forever to spool...especially at our elevation (about 2000m).
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I used a T25 manifold instead.
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10801509_10152906832479914_214435665778972239_n.jpg?oh=1517bd40f2808144b77aa1964df7a004&oe=550E10E1)
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If anything you can probably get better performance by reducing the boost a little given your low EGT numbers. You've got more air than you need right now. Knock it down to say 28 PSI and I bet your EGTs will barely be over 1250 but you'll reduce the back pressure on your engine.
Yeah, that's about where our EGT was when we were troubleshooting a boost leak and running about 29 psi.
By your recommendation to reduce boost to get better performance, I assume you believe we're losing efficiency at that pressure ratio. Based on our elevation and boost, our pressure ratio is really high -- about 3.75-3.8 -- which is at the upper limit of the HE200 compressor maps I've seen. You might be right.
I'm thinking an upgrade to larger valves (or an AAZ head) is our next step. Honestly, this car runs so well, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
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I used a T25 manifold instead.
Looks great! You have a lot more space with that intake manifold. The middle bolts on my G60 manifold are nearly impossible to access with the turbo mounted.
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If anything you can probably get better performance by reducing the boost a little given your low EGT numbers. You've got more air than you need right now. Knock it down to say 28 PSI and I bet your EGTs will barely be over 1250 but you'll reduce the back pressure on your engine.
Yeah, that's about where our EGT was when we were troubleshooting a boost leak and running about 29 psi.
By your recommendation to reduce boost to get better performance, I assume you believe we're losing efficiency at that pressure ratio. Based on our elevation and boost, our pressure ratio is really high -- about 3.75-3.8 -- which is at the upper limit of the HE200 compressor maps I've seen. You might be right.
I'm thinking an upgrade to larger valves (or an AAZ head) is our next step. Honestly, this car runs so well, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
Efficiency is one thing, but don't forget the turbine side is a restriction. Allowing more exhaust to bypass the turbine (therefore slightly reducing intake pressure) lets the engine pump out exhaust more easily. Really you want the minimum amount of boost to completely burn all your fuel and keep things cool. More boost doesn't necessarily result in more power.
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Efficiency is one thing, but don't forget the turbine side is a restriction. Allowing more exhaust to bypass the turbine (therefore slightly reducing intake pressure) lets the engine pump out exhaust more easily.
I understand what you're saying -- that's a good point.
Intuitively, I can't imagine we're getting close to the mass flow limits of the turbine, based on Alcaid's experience with an HE211W at 173 whp. That said, it's really a question of system efficiency, i.e., all the components working together. If I had the resources, I'd love to be able to plot hp vs. boost using a dyno to see if we're past the knee in the curve and reaching a point of diminishing returns -- that would be an interesting science project.
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An exhaust manifold pressure gauge would show what is happening better than just about anything.
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Intuitively, I can't imagine we're getting close to the mass flow limits of the turbine, based on Alcaid's experience with an HE211W at 173 whp.
That was the older HE211W design, the HE200WG you have did 205whp on a 1.6TD ;)
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Looks great! You have a lot more space with that intake manifold. The middle bolts on my G60 manifold are nearly impossible to access with the turbo mounted.
PD 150 with a EGR delete pipe from Darkside Developments.
I'm hoping that boost pipe fits under the hood.
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Intuitively, I can't imagine we're getting close to the mass flow limits of the turbine, based on Alcaid's experience with an HE211W at 173 whp.
That was the older HE211W design, the HE200WG you have did 205whp on a 1.6TD ;)
god damn, i may need to buy one for my aaz next year haha. what was the pump?
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Intuitively, I can't imagine we're getting close to the mass flow limits of the turbine, based on Alcaid's experience with an HE211W at 173 whp.
That was the older HE211W design, the HE200WG you have did 205whp on a 1.6TD ;)
god damn, i may need to buy one for my aaz next year haha. what was the pump?
11mm pump built by Dieselmeken in Sweden, 120cc of fuel on that one.
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it fits
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10846016_10152912097414914_9161279010367269175_n.jpg?oh=4ec0828597832987abbd8c2a7f3d9d74&oe=5504A1D5)
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nice!
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I traced the cummins dp flange into CAD, then modded it a little so I can just weld a round 2.5" tube right to it.
(https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1509004_10152926733389914_7361869478899863983_n.jpg?oh=63a991d1a4bfcaae3cf06cb8d5f702b2&oe=5500DB67)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10850034_10152926733439914_7387079049703760200_n.jpg?oh=e5c1956ce7443a765d12bab37a991e19&oe=5509AD68&__gda__=1426387582_138b4ec304b91650cbf6d86211100264)
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1619194_10152926733519914_7225106100803303319_n.jpg?oh=bcfa8237006e72587eb144a47091ad95&oe=550C9BD8)
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I have a slightly used HE200WG if anyone is interested, less than 300 miles on it but my friend is changing it out for a compound setup.
500$ including worldwide shipping
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I am really interested as that would solve my MTDI jeep issue of making a controller for the 2256v I have...Let me know if he doesn't sell it in the next month. Christmas and all.
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11mm pump built by Dieselmeken in Sweden, 120cc of fuel on that one.
[/quote]
hey there guys so i have been out of this for a while now where mine actually blew up... i have low compresson and alot of blow by in my intake and crank case. lots of oil going everywhere along with antifreeze boiling over. so rebuild time again :( when i got my pump back i believe giles got me 121 cc of fuel but i cant really remeber but that gives me good hope and im glad to see alot of people interested in this post besides me. its soon time to start rebuilding spring is just around the corner and 2015 is going to be a good and smoky year for me i hope. there will be alot of photos as i plan on making a beast this year
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also when you say it made 205hp what did it make for toruqe?
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That 173whp and 204whp you are talking about its my car :D
Alcaid I tink the 204whp was With Holset HE221wg don't remember, but I tink so ???
PS. my english writing are bad (Norwegians) :P
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That's alright my English is bad to and I'm English haha! But anyways I love that car it's whicked I really want to see a good video of it driving!! Any idea what your made for torque on the dyno?
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345nm.to big turbo I tink the 173whp dynoed more nm on smaller Holset
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That 173whp and 204whp you are talking about its my car :D
Alcaid I tink the 204whp was With Holset HE221wg don't remember, but I tink so ???
PS. my english writing are bad (Norwegians) :P
204whp was with the weird HE221W-5cm with the exact same turbine wheel and just a little bigger comp inducer than the HE200WG and ported shroud compressor housing. Turbine is the limiting factor on this setup so both HE200WG and this HE221W version will be able to do the same 204whp. HE200WG will have slighly better compressor efficiency.
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So where I got the he200wg from you. I should have no issue reaching my goal of at least 180whp
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180whp - no problem if you have enough fuel ;)
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I believe I have 120cc of fuel and that sounds like it should be enough
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What is the cc of the stock pump?
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120cc is enough, stock untampered pump is 40cc :p
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Good I'm getting very excited to start working on this again. I'm pretty interested in seeing how much damage is actually done to the motor. It sure wasn't living well last going off. I put around 170kms on it this year so I'm really hopping that this year will be different
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So guys I think I may have found out why I couldn't make any boost. Its #2 cylinder. The cylinder wall looks bad to. I'll probably have to replace the block to. The rings blew apart when I pushed the piston up. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/09/2ede941bdc2e58bea88db56c63331ba0.jpg)
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I do not understand how that happened. Any ideas?
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None at all!! Cylinder is cracked to
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that's is extremely unfortunate.
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I'm going to make a wild guess but would it be possible you had a cracked ring and this is where everything started. Maybe the high temps first started and progressed to get worst with the boost also dropping you were leaking more and more into the crank? Just what I picture going on.
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yeah quite possible, its on the front hotter side of the piston too
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yeah quite possible, its on the front hotter side of the piston too
check the injectors
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What am I checking the Injectors for?
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to see if it leaks/drips before it actually sprays, and also check the spray pattern
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They shouldn't because they were rebuilt and balanced by Giles and have less then 20k kms on them. But possible
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Hey guys. So I'm looking for ARP rod bolts asap and I need a part number. I can't find it on google or the website so if someone could point me in the right direction that would be great!
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FAQ
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I tried and still have had really bad luck. Id much rather find it on my own trust me but if one of you guys could point me in the right direction it would be great! These are the only thing keeping my car from going together
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/board,13.20.html
about 2/3 down the page is the thread titled ARP Part numbers
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I see now but they only mention it for the 1.6 and 1.7
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Hey guys I need desperate help! I got the car fully rebuilt and it makes great power but it won't make over 20psi and my egts are to high! So the waste gate on the turbo. When its closed it should make full boost correct? Anything I can check to see why I'm not making more boost.
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Have you added a ball and spring type boost controller to dial in the boost? Enough preload on the wastegate? We have seen over 45psi with the exact same turbo on a 1.6TD when adding lots of fuel ;)
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I'd check the WG preload first. For troubleshooting purposes, disconnect the boost line going to the WG actuator (make sure you cap the end which goes to the manifold -- you don't want a boost leak). Increase WG preload incrementally, driving the car each time to check boost levels. It needs a lot more preload than you think.
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Yeah I have a hard time keeping mine under 35 psi now that I fixed the boost leak.
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I can't make over 20 PSI either and have the gate wired shut. For me it's a fueling issue I believe as my EGT's don't go over 1100 F.
The HE200 turbo is still awesome
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I have the wastegate wired shut and the line blocked off. I have a lot of fuel! But just can't make over 20psi
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If that is correct it would mean you have a boost leak somewhere
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Okay thanks! I'll borrow the leak tester from work and see if I can find one. Thanks for the help! Either way it makes tons of power at 20psi I'm kinda scared to see 30+
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Haha I am also at about that 20 psi and I can't help thinking ''you guys are stupid how can you drive around like that'' ;D
and then I think there is more... and I just want to have it :)
Bothers me that boost doesn't seem to steady, it will always drop fast if I apply less fuel (while still accelerating)
Never stops boosting really so I don't think my WG would give me more boost if set higher, probably I have boost leaks everywhere.
Can anyone confirm that boost should stay high once it's biuld up and I am having bad boost leak?
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You're describing normal behavior. Boost is created by heat coming out of the exhaust. Let off the go pedal, there will be less heat, the turbo will produce less boost.
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Hey guys I just wanted to say the car now makes just shy of 40psi!!!! It works great! Definitely not 200whp though. I'm thinking more like 160ish but that is without water meth. But even so it works great and sounds great and is a beyond blast to drive. I actually cried when I saw the guage almost hit 40psi!!!!
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Now add some more fuel ;)
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Really?
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If your EGTs are safe then absolutely! I'd be very interested to see what your exhaust manifold pressure is like at 40 PSI though, you're in the danger zone for the exhaust valves not closing.
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My egts are kinda high but I just installed a water/meth kit so I should be good to turn it up
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"kinda high"
What is that exactly?
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I can see 1500°f before 4g rpm. I tried adding fuel and all it did was make my egts higher
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The car does work pretty good but like a buddy of mine has a mk4 Tdi stage 2.5 with nozzles and he walks all over me. My car should eat his without an issue. But I making full boost and have enough fuel with water/meth kit. To me I really feel the turbo is a tad small. But you guys are seeing 200+whp out of it. I'm running right in 40psi to
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You neee a bigger pump, 11mm pump with more dynamic timing and you will get the fuel you need with way less injection duration = lower EGT, more HP and a happier engine. You really need to talk to Dieselmeken in Sweden for a performance pump ;)
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Just wondering, what do you have for an intake, intercooler, and exhaust?
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/22/8a7ebc4a72e5cd35435b0b13d36d5fe8.jpg). Big intake 2.5 inch intercooler tubing with a more then big enough intercooler and a full 2.5 inch exhaust turbo back
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You neee a bigger pump, 11mm pump with more dynamic timing and you will get the fuel you need with way less injection duration = lower EGT, more HP and a happier engine. You really need to talk to Dieselmeken in Sweden for a performance pump ;)
I see what your saying. But I already have enough fuel don't i? Im making full boost and now I even have a tad bit of smoke. Giles said it should be more then good enough
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You can smoke even with an 8mm pump with too long duration. If only Giles would tell how much cc his pumps gives as that would give a quantitative number of how super those pumps are or not. 120cc 11mm pump dynoed 204-205whp
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2.5" intercooler piping is a bit big. 2" will help with smoke, as the 2.5" would be a race or all high rpm only application. That may help with the smoke early. Especially if you have a bigger than needed IC.
I say something is off as I have a Giles 10mm maxed out and now that I eliminated the boost leak I have 0 smoke and EGT around 700f peak...I did a lot of porting and head work though. I don't think it would make that much difference.
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Like Alcaid says... The challenge isn't so much total fuel quantity as it is timing. If you're running a 10mm pump and smaller injectors you can make lots of smoke and high EGTs without making all that much power. It's about getting it in there fast enough that it gets burned while the piston is in the right place.
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Like Alcaid says... The challenge isn't so much total fuel quantity as it is timing. If you're running a 10mm pump and smaller injectors you can make lots of smoke and high EGTs without making all that much power. It's about getting it in there fast enough that it gets burned while the piston is in the right place.
smaller injectors in an IDI?
On my setup it has an aaz camplate with the 10mm head.
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Ah crap. Wasn't paying attention to which forum I was in. A 10mm pump would actually be pretty hot on an IDI.
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Not sure guys I still have yet to get it dynoed but its still working pretty decent I am overall very very happy with the performance of the car and setup it drives great I just need to figure my egts out which I am continuously getting lower
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Doesn't matter now guys the engine blew up
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WHAT!! Howd that happen? Any plans for that holset ;)?
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Are you giving up? In my coutry 1.6 D engines are so cheap I don't really care if my blows up.
As long the turbo survives...
Please report what happened.
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I'd be very interested to see what your exhaust manifold pressure is like at 40 PSI though, you're in the danger zone for the exhaust valves not closing.
Says who? What do you think is going to hold the valves open? 40psi on the intake side? Not likely.
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40 on the intake side could easily be 60+ exhaust manifold pressure...
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I disintegrated a rod bearing completely destroyed it to nothing but pieces of metal in my oil pan. Bottom end is toast. And I can't afford another rebuild after 1250kms
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I disintegrated a rod bearing completely destroyed it to nothing but pieces of metal in my oil pan. Bottom end is toast. And I can't afford another rebuild after 1250kms
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Very sorry for your loss. Do you know what caused the issue?
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To much boost I'd say and the bottom end just couldn't handle it. Very sad but nothing I can do now
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Hey guys just wanted to put a little update about this. I put an engine in it. Did a little stuff and now I make just about 50psi yes that's right 50psi!!! Hauls pretty good. Egts get high but I just hold it and it keeps pulling
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If you want it to last you need to back off the boost. You are overspooling it and back pressure is probably very high as well. Unless you are running a 12mm pump you are out of fuel a long time ago anyway
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What will break? The turbo?
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Yep, and worst case your engine due to excessive EGT and PCP
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I thought these turbos could handle high boost like that?
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50psi is a PR of 4.5, not even a HX40 Super will do that without overspooling (too high rpms = too high compressor wheel tip speed)
50 psi is compound territory if you want it to last
Besides you are not even close at having the fuel needed so you are actually getting worse performance that what you will get with lower boost
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So lower the boost to like 40? And I'll most likely have more power
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Lower boost until it smokes slightly on full boost. Then add boost until it just clears. No need to run more boost than what you have fuel for
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That's what I had originally something is different with this new motor. My old one maxed out at 42psi and just cleared the smoke up
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Do you think 40-45 is good?
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Really that's excessively high for these engines. To get boost pressure that high you're creating massive back pressure; your turbo is probably taking 60-80 PSI to create that 40-45 PSI. Unless you've got a heavily modified pump with a huge head on it and a massive intercooler (and I mean massive, you are probably looking at 200°C air coming out of your turbo right now) you're just hurting your engine without making any more power. Lots of folks have 200ish HP TDI engines at around 30ish PSI, you aren't likely to make that much power on an IDI without blowing the prechambers out of the head.
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Yeah. I mean I have been kinda hard on the engine. It holds this boost pretty good. I have probably 30 pulls on it at this much boost and it acts the same each pull. Not sure why its making more then ever though. It's weird I never changed anything and before it just made 40
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Lots of folks have 200ish HP TDI engines at around 30ish PSI, you aren't likely to make that much power on an IDI without blowing the prechambers out of the head.
TDI and IDI is not comparable when it comes to boost or fuel quantity vs. hp. And your last comment is just silly. With the right mods 200hp is easy without prechambers going anywhere.
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I'm interested to see how much I make. I haven't been driving the car as I'm waiting to dyno it. The guys from around me say max I'll make is 140hp and 240ftq it sure feels like it has alot more power then that but idk
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