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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: sgnimj96 on May 06, 2014, 09:29:56 am
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??? cranking over my 1.6 CR n/a engine after installing my injectors and nothing out of the tail pipe. Lines are very bled, fuel comes out at the fittings quick when loosened and engine cranked, no air in the pump. The pump seems to pull fuel well but I mityvac'd it anyway and then even set a fuel can on a ladder to gravity feed the system. Not a single cylinder has fired. I crank it let the starter cool and batt charge again and again and nothing.
The old injectors popped between 1500-1800 psi (checked right after removal) , car started easy but didn't idle well and the economy was less than average.
I set the new nozzled injectors to just under 2000 psi so they would have some "wear" room. I advance IP timing to 1.00 from .90 thinking that should help, even tried using the cold start but the weather is warm. No difference, not even a puff.
Do I need to:
lower the pop pressure on my injectors :'(
increase internal pump regulator pressure
somthing else?
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Probably neither... The pump internal pressure controls advance, not injector popping. The pop pressure you have is definitely not too high either.
If you have fuel at the injector unions then timing is really the only thing it could be.
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The timing can't be far off because it was running before, although I know the new pop pressure will alter the timing.
Double checked the the timing because I did loosen the belt tensioner a bit because I couldn't twist the belt 90 deg. . ,wanted to make sure I don't stress the old belt with the new injectors. But then I checked the cam/flywheel with the valve cover off the be safe. Also checked the pump timing w/ dial indicator and later advanced it about .10 mm .
Wouldn't I still get some smoke out of the tail pipe even if the timing was off ?
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try using the cold start and glowing first, although if you have fuel going in i figure some kind of smoke would make its way out. even at 70f you need to glow,some,. try that first, if when you crank you have fuel coming out of injector lines, you have part of it right there, what i mean is, only a few things need to come together to get these motors going; timing is it on? if so air must be able to come thru intake to cylinders, fuel must be injected, and engine must crank over, also you need pre-heat or glow/cold start to get her going.
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Well, um... I have been using the glow plugs and the cold start, but thanks, I know these are the questions. I hope they keep coming because this is a strange one.
I must be messing up somewhere(s)...
one major screw up was leaving my glow plugs on too long (left my remote switch on) and fried 3 of the 4. :-[ So had to replace those before doing a real start after priming the lines. Could I have damaged anything from leaving a glow plug stuck on for too long? The only plug that survived had a loose connection.
I even tried spraying wd-40 in the intake before and during cranking and - nothing. There's a little bit of smoke/vapor in the tailpipe when I look with a flashlight but nothing I can really see otherwise. Doesn't even have much of a smell.
might have to pull the injectors.... what else can I possibly try?
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Yeah you mentioned you'd changed the timing, but I wasn't sure how far you'd gone - ie if the belt were off all bets are off, but if you were just adjusting the pump a bit, not as likely.
You can try one of QuantumMan's tricks - connect the injector lines + injectors to the pump upside down (ie injectors pointing straight in the air) and cranking - you should get fuel misting from each of them, that will rule out any issues with the injectors themselves.
If the timing is sufficiently off you might not get much of anything - I was getting some white haze from mine when my timing was out by 1 cylinder, but that was with an open turbo.
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You can try one of QuantumMan's tricks - connect the injector lines + injectors to the pump upside down (ie injectors pointing straight in the air) and cranking - you should get fuel misting from each of them, that will rule out any issues with the injectors themselves
Wow, that sounds interesting. I guess there's no other way - kinda weird and messy though.
I do have some used injectors (that I bought as cores) I could pop check and swap in there. Kinda of backpeddling with that idea though, I suppose...
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did you break the 12v wire going to the shut off on the pump? I would check the easiest thing first, 12v with the key on cranking. Then move on from there. Lots can happen when you loosen the lines to time the pump.
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I had thought he said he cracked inj lines and had fuel while cranking, the only thing with that 1wire is that when you cycle the key on/off you hear the solenoid 'click'.
when you burnt out the glow plugs, did they come out in 1 piece? when they burn out they can go to pieces in the pre-chamber. some could be left in cyl, but I doubt it would lead to this much hard starting, but you don't want your engine to start with bits & pieces of plug in cyl.
the only other thing you need as I stated most of what you need above; is compression, I never tried wd40, but I figure it could work, but the only other thing is the trick posted, hey be real careful doing this, that diesel spray isn't like a gallon of fuel(hard to burn)its really flammable, have someone crank motor, standing well to the side observe inj action/spray. don't get near spray path. but it can tell you if inj pump pressure is defeating inj 'pop' and fuel is actually getting into cyl.
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Fortunately the glow plugs did not break apart (2 of them swelled up on the ends though).
I connect the fuel solenoid with an alligator clip direct to the battery, actual 12v wire is disconnected so it doesn't backfeed.
Thanks for the warning about cranking on open injectors, I'm gonna pull the injectors and just look at them first, see if there even wet. Not sure why the wd-40 trick didn't work, just make it smell like wd-40 everywhere.
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If your going to pull the injs, do you have a diesel compression tester? nows time for that too.
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No, I wish.... but the car started and ran fine before. Nothing has happened to to engine except burning up the glow plugs
Will the HF cheapo work? http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-diesel-engine-compression-tester-93644.html
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Something was going on in there, maybe just the wd-40. Glow plugs work, got a visual with the injectors out. I don't have a good camera so I tried it with a magnifying glass
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a550/sgnimj96/IM002531_zps4f38e686.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/sgnimj96/media/IM002531_zps4f38e686.jpg.html)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a550/sgnimj96/IM002536_zps5582d5b2.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/sgnimj96/media/IM002536_zps5582d5b2.jpg.html)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a550/sgnimj96/IM002537_zps8218d372.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/sgnimj96/media/IM002537_zps8218d372.jpg.html)
Seems like if fuel was coming out they wouldn't be so evenly coated with gunk
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Sorta hard to tell but those nozzles look like they are pretty toast from here?
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To me that 'gunk' looks like water. :o
How long did you leave the head open when changing injectors?
Don't worry about igniting the upturned jets, as the only way to do that is to deliberately do it. They also cut off within half a rev.
If spraying properly, just 4 clouds, and not much dropped onto your engine! Besides, within fractions of a second of seeing sprays, and comparing,the key operator can turn off.
Do a diesel pulse test on #1 line, if sprays are good
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Just wipe the injector faces.
If the valve sealed then injector may be perfect inside.
An injector that has seen a lot of wear will have a toroid or doughnut groove.
This does not affect injector performance
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For a different test I pieced together and installed 4 used injector and nozzles, calibrated to around 1800 psi, with fair spray patterns.
I re-used the heat shields (Thanks Mark) , got a better battery charger for faster cranking, and after getting plenty of fuel out the hard lines.....
Nothing ,
Checked the timing again then retarded to back to .88 mm , with or without the coldstart.... Nothing
All I ever see is a little misty smoke inside the tailpipe if I use a flashlight.
Too weird
So I guess if the inverted injector test doesn't fire the injectors, then I need a new IP ?
That thing ran pretty good before I took the injectors out ???
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Maybe something needs help? Try pull starting it once it is back together. Every time I take the lines off there is enough air to make it hard to start, but not impossible. Maybe it is compression issue, but why it would have surface right now is kind of a mystery.
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Is the 12mm bolt that is removed to check pump timing tight?
If it is, I agree with pull starting.
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'only' a few things need to come together to get these engines running; air going into cylinders +cam&timing go with this, &no restrictions. compression, fuel delivery, +pump timing goes with this.
the only other things you need are voltage to solenoid, cranking speed, and cold start(gps).
so these are your points to check. unless its found you have an exhaust restriction,
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For a different test I pieced together and installed 4 used injector and nozzles, calibrated to around 1800 psi, with fair spray patterns.
I re-used the heat shields (Thanks Mark) , got a better battery charger for faster cranking, and after getting plenty of fuel out the hard lines.....
Nothing ,
Checked the timing again then retarded to back to .88 mm , with or without the coldstart.... Nothing
All I ever see is a little misty smoke inside the tailpipe if I use a flashlight.
Too weird
So I guess if the inverted injector test doesn't fire the injectors, then I need a new IP ?
That thing ran pretty good before I took the injectors out ???
So as I understand it, because you doubt the injectors are spraying inside the engine, you took some older ones, and inserted those and cranked with no results. No firing and no smoke.
This could be construed to mean that the pump is bad, or the grossly erroneous timing is still grossly erroneous. The chances of no injectors working is 1 in 256. [2^8].
If you did the visual test, you would know in seconds if your injectors are injecting and if the spray pattern is within the very wide range of adequate functioning. If they were then you could move on to timing the pump...
If they were not spraying at all then, the pump is at fault. [Or it's fuel supply]
Do the test, and get the results!
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I don't have any problems with quantam mans test, just don't get near the line of spray,, it ll tell you a lot right there,,just do it carefully and don't do something stupid like have a problem with the inj lines.
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Throw a clear plastic bag with an elastic over the injectors if you are worried.
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Throw a clear plastic bag with an elastic over the injectors if you are worried.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Good idea,which also demonstrates the momentum of the jet
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I can't seem to get the lines in upside down. Took the alternator out, still just doesn't want to work.
Still can't image how the ip could be bad. It ran with a serious restriction when i got it, constant bubbles in the system, leaks, crud inside. Resealed it due to a rpm hang (that's when I found the crud). Ran better than ever, started easy, ... but the injectors were worn out: clatter when cold, rough low idle; so I made a pop tester, pulled the injectors; and sure enough the pintles were all carved out and the pop pressures were low and uneven.
I have a cheap electric fuel pump on the way from ebay. Found out my other one was failed just as I started with the install. I don't think it was restricting the flow but I bypassed it after a few failed attemps to start.
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You most likely had a GP problem to start with, but since you have been playing with so many things, you now may have multiple issues. Tow start the thing. See if it restarts hot.
If you have the injectors out, cycle the glow plugs and look for little curls of smoke and glowing tips. Unless you can see them heat you do not know they are good. I have seen a number that have the right resistance and no gross deformities but only get luke warm.
Pull start it and then you will know. FWIW you can get an IDI to start with 200 psi compression and no GPs if you drag it far enough. I will drag start a diesel long before I will start taking things apart. Some times you can wash all the lube oil off the cylinder walls, if you crank one too long w/o starting. Once you wash down the walls the ring drag is quite high yet you have no compression to speak of. Drag starting these is often your only option short of waiting a few days for the diesel to run by the rings and then remove the GPs or injectors and add a touch of oil to each hole. OR you could just pull start it.
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Getting a tow would be difficult.
The glow plugs do work, got an active visual with the injectors out.
I'll get the compression tester from HF
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rotating the inj lines assembly 180degrees should do it, alt bracket is on the other side; this is what im taking about, don't end up having problems. I haven't done this, but it seems rather straight forward, there is a pic;,somewhere. if you have lines loose and over pump and injectors, visualize turning assy over the top, upside down, 180 degree turn, ends up pointing at up your face as your looking from top. I don't think theres much there to obstruct it.
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Compression tests good, all are ~500 psi , according to the HF gauge. Got my starting system well grounded and charged, so it cranks over fast.
Heat shields had the same stuff on em, put a lighter on em and no sizzle, smelled dieselly. Injectors look wet at the nozzles.
The light smokey mist that I could see in the tail pipe (only with a flashlight) had a faint odd smell, I'm thinking now that was unburnt fuel, or maybe just condensation from the air
Could the timing be so far off as to never ignite the fuel during compression?
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Difficult or not you need to tow it.
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I'd verify injectors spraying first. Even if I had to use just one hardline to check each injector and each delivery valve.
Compression. Fuel. Timing.
If you have all three, the motor should run.
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I pushed on with the other difficult trick, Didn't bend anything but had remove all the line clamps. Not fun
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a550/sgnimj96/IM002540_zpsecf765c2.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/sgnimj96/media/IM002540_zpsecf765c2.jpg.html)
Still nothing coming out of the injectors after a few crankings, I'll keep trying... maybe my IP can't even pop 1800 psi
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So I cranked this time with the injector holes open, very fast... and actually saw one of the external (used) injectors begin firing. This is good, wonder why it didn't even puff with all the cranking i did with those injectors in the head.
After a short break (gotta let the start system rest) got all 4 firing, Now to try the newer injectors
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lines have to prime,
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the lines must have stayed primed being upside down, swapped in the newer ones and they all quickly fired into the baggies.
Engine spins over twice as fast without the compression resistance. Looks like towing would really do the trick as long a the timing is correct.
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Good so far. :)
Next I'd take #1 injector off the hardline and turn the engine by hand to see if a blob of fuel emerges from the hardline when the crank is near #1 cyl 15o BTDC. (rough timing verify)
Power to cutoff solenoid, of course.
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I thing I ll say your timing must be close, you didn't say that you changed the cam timing, only that you adjusted the belt tension, this does change timing some, I find it isn't normally a problem, it just doesn't run as it should be dead-on. a rather small adjustment, as I remember you said you did, shouldn't cause the timing to be too far out. and you have cranked it a lot, so no valves/cam out of time; that far. I d check it, with timing tools(you don't need pump lock), dial gauge. I ve in the past for one reason or another timed the cam by eye, with out the cam lock, it was easily close enough to run. not that im doing that again,,..
so you have real good compression from your reading you say; you now know you have good fuel delivery; timing is the next likely thing to check, only other things it could be is intake or exhaust restriction that somehow happened while you were working in the area, that you haven't seen yet,,
put her back together and check timing, and give her another try; glow 1st; good luck.
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Looks like we're getting somewhere ;D...
If you had the time, you could repeat the experiment, and leave the injectors primed for a bunch of hours to see if the whole setup looses prime causing the long cranking...
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Not sure if this is relevant
Here's a weird thing, as I'm hand turning it (using the wheel) and looking for a "blob" of diesel to come out the no.1 delivery valve.... it got to a spot in the rotation and quickly started losing prime in the pump. Actually the little injector return line on the top of the pump was open and my fuel can was sitting about tank level. Fuel just started gravity feeding out of the IP super fast; I just picked my fuel can up a set it up higher and the air got pushed back out of the IP. Normal?
Even weirder, as I rotate the engine by hand, I hear this "tick" about 2 or 3 times every rotation. Sounds sorta like an quick electric zap, and the sound seems to come out of the front of the IP. I can back it up and hear it again in just about the same spot but not exactly.. Alternator/water pump belt isn't on. Used a 3/8 extension to my ear and it's loudest on the IP. I've always used the wheel to rotate engine and never noticed this "noticeable" sound, except for this project. I disregarded it until this closer inspection. (Feed pump?)
I'm taking a nap
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Here's a weird thing, as I'm hand turning it (using the wheel) and looking for a "blob" of diesel to come out the no.1 delivery valve.... it got to a spot in the rotation and quickly started losing prime in the pump. Actually the little injector return line on the top of the pump was open and my fuel can was sitting about tank level. Fuel just started gravity feeding out of the IP super fast; I just picked my fuel can up a set it up higher and the air got pushed back out of the IP. Normal?
Yep, normal.
Even weirder, as I rotate the engine by hand, I hear this "tick" about 2 or 3 times every rotation. Sounds sorta like an quick electric zap, and the sound seems to come out of the front of the IP. I can back it up and hear it again in just about the same spot but not exactly.. Alternator/water pump belt isn't on. Used a 3/8 extension to my ear and it's loudest on the IP. I've always used the wheel to rotate engine and never noticed this "noticeable" sound, except for this project. I disregarded it until this closer inspection. (Feed pump?)
Probably the cam plate and rollers in the IP. Normal.
I'm taking a nap
I'm taking a nap
Normal.
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:) :) :)
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Even weirder, as I rotate the engine by hand, I hear this "tick" about 2 or 3 times every rotation. Sounds sorta like an quick electric zap, and the sound seems to come out of the front of the IP. I can back it up and hear it again in just about the same spot but not exactly.. Alternator/water pump belt isn't on. Used a 3/8 extension to my ear and it's loudest on the IP. I've always used the wheel to rotate engine and never noticed this "noticeable" sound, except for this project. I disregarded it until this closer inspection. (Feed pump?)
I'm taking a nap
i have noticed a similar sound with the timing cover removed, the clip that sits near the ip it will snap against the alt fan as you rotate, possible.
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Even weirder, as I rotate the engine by hand, I hear this "tick" about 2 or 3 times every rotation. Sounds sorta like an quick electric zap, and the sound seems to come out of the front of the IP. I can back it up and hear it again in just about the same spot but not exactly.. Alternator/water pump belt isn't on. Used a 3/8 extension to my ear and it's loudest on the IP. I've always used the wheel to rotate engine and never noticed this "noticeable" sound, except for this project. I disregarded it until this closer inspection. (Feed pump?)
I'm taking a nap
i have noticed a similar sound with the timing cover removed, the clip that sits near the ip it will snap against the alt fan as you rotate, possible.
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(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a550/sgnimj96/IM002541_zps1745f71c.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/sgnimj96/media/IM002541_zps1745f71c.jpg.html)
Unfortunately, there is a delay. Starter went into "click" mode; did it a few times and got more and frequent until no start at all. Found a continuity between: the solenoid terminal to the starter motor, and ground. So I'm waiting on a new solenoid in the mail. Glad it happened now and not on the road. Check out those hardware washers I used on a long shaft alternator to get my pulley lined up exact for the a/c delete. :D
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I took the pump off, opened up the lid and rotated the drive shaft to check for that "click" noise it was making. Looked like the roller assembly making the noise. Then I noticed there was a lot of visible play in the drive shaft, probably got worse when I had the belt over-tightened. Not sure what that had to do with the injectors not firing.
So I got an old 107A pump and resealed it, looked nice and clean inside. Then I saw that it ALSO had a lot of play in the drive shaft. After a long ordeal of getting some bushings, a proper sized reamer, and some creative rigging - I got the 107A pump together. With the newly timed pump the engine fired right off.
I'm sure the timing on the old pump was way off with the new injectors. Maybe if i'd took the belt off and completely re-timed it the motor might have run, but I wanted to find out why it was making that odd click sound when I rotated it. Doing IP bushings was definitively an interesting job, could have been better but it worked.
The engine idles funny with resealed 107A pump, either too low or too high, but it fires up every time so at least I know the injectors are working. Some things I did that also helped were: checking and cleaning the starter, replacing the starter solenoid, adding more and better battery grounds, installing a new electric fuel pump to prime the system quickly.