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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: keithnsage on February 04, 2013, 12:07:22 am
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ECOdiesel swap into 1981 Mk1 Diesel Rabbit L Need advice
Son wants to put an ECOdiesel into 1981 Mk1 Diesel Rabbit L. Basically swap Mk2 (Jetta?) guts into Mk1 body.
Requesting any advice, additional info, suggestions, success stories, comments, corrections, etc.
Original 1.6L diesel NA timing belt failed and destroyed the head.
Swapped in a 1.5L with a 4-speed from a '79 or '80 rabbit to get it home.
The 1.5L had bad blow-by / low compression and eventually refused to start.
Have the blown 1.6L with 5-speed trans, and have 1.5L with 4-speed trans for parts or what ever.
Son saw an ad for a "1.6L Turbo diesel engine and trans. complete." He wanted a Turbo for more power. Turns out that it's an ECOdiesel - better on emissions, not sure about more power.
Son bought the ('91 or '92? not sure I haven’t got to look at it yet) ECOdiesel engine with 5-speed trans. It did NOT come with the AC compressor, PS, or 90 Amp ALT. I will try to get to it to look at it and get numbers off the head, engine, and transmission.
Will this go into the Mk1 Rabbit? How easy or difficult, or is it even possible?
After reading many forums, many issues seem to be apparent.
Most of the threads about ECOdiesel into an Mk1 are about swapping ECOdiesel parts onto a 1.6L to make a franken-motor with a sometimes successful (?) end result after various tricks/adaptations; including but not limited to having to modify or customize exhaust connections and shift linkage parts.
I haven't found threads about swapping an ECOdiesel into a Mk1 Rabbit saying "this is how I did it," like other swap/build threads usually do. They start with, "Hey, that's what I'm planning to do," and then there are no success / Hey, it worked -This is what I had to do, kind of stories.
ECOdiesel came Standard WITH PS, AC, larger ALT, larger radiator?, 3-speed fan switch, Cruise control, and various other peculiarities specific to it.
ECOdiesel V/drive belts for AC, PS, ALT, Water pump; apparently the components mounting, tensioning, and drive belt arrangements make it difficult if not impossible to do an AC and PS delete and still be able to drive the ALT and water pump. The water pump on the ECOdiesel allegedly had a freewheeling/clutched pulley. The ALT was a 90 AMP because of AC and had a larger housing and mounting boss.
From what I understand, if a component was an option then there were some without that option. This gives the possibility of doing deletes by using the brackets or whatnot from a car/unit without the option. Kind of skipping over the fact that some engine or head castings for with options are probably different from without.
If options were as standard equipment and no option not to have it, then there isn't a readily available method to do a delete in some cases. I found this out looking for ECOdiesel AC delete and PS delete – not a very fruitful search result.
Another issue is that not very many of the '91-'92 Jetta ECOdiesel exist, so junkyard, Pick-N-Pull, and sourcing additional parts is more than a challenge than finding Diesel Rabbit parts - and those are hard enough to find. I would also guess that replacement parts from parts houses are hard to find and expensive.
I get this feeling that a bunch of stuff may not be compatible or do-able.
Engine and transmission mounts
I've seen a couple of things that say the engine mounts are different due to Yr/Mdl difference and because of the Turbo. On one thread I found that specifically the rear engine mount has a provision for the oil line to go through it. We don’t have that mount (that I know of) and I doubt it would fit an Mk1 body.
Other ponderings:
Transmission; shift linkage; in one thread the exhaust interferes with the shift linkage and had to be modified in several paces; one piece shortened and welded back together, another piece bent some way, and a home-made bracket for something else – sheesh.
Transmission reverse light switch
Axle flanges size 90mm vs 100mm?
Probably have to relocate fuel filter
Turbo & manifold clearance to firewall may be an issue
Heat shields- 2; 1 at firewall (don't have), and the other (don't have) between intake and turbo???
Exhaust down pipe (toilet bowl?) lower on ECO than Mk1. Diameter piping - unknown.
Oil cooling / Intercooler?
V-belt pulleys and related parts that we need to work; ALT (60AMP from one of the other Rabbit guts), water pump.
Swap ALT mount from 1.6 to ECO?
Am I forgetting something here?
Anything else?
Sorry for the long-windedness and noobish post. I’d like to do the homework / research before we get into an insolvable project that might turn into nightmare. Maybe I’m over thinking this.
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This is an additional info and attempt to post donor pics post.
There's a sticker on the valve cover that says "TURBO DIESEL." I have no idea if ECOdiesels were labeled that way or not.
Well, the numbers on the IP on this thing doesn't come up as an ECOdiesel IP.
Here's the numbers off the IP:
NR 0 460 494 152 <- wrong #
NR 0 460 494 182 <- RIGHT #
R 223 BT 4007
068 130 081 F
It has an 020 FF tranny (not sure yr) and looks like an Mk1 mount on the Passenger end.
Didn't have much time to get ID numbers / codes off the various guts. Will do when have more time.
Anyone recognize this animal?
Eng+Trans
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/8428696331_66e6f37393.jpg)
Looks like an Mk1 mount to me, but I'm new to this stuff.
EngPasMntSide
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/8428696355_19c88d6c01.jpg)
EngSideAccsryBrkt
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8374/8428696401_0a2d82d00b.jpg)
Turbo-Exhst-DwnPipe
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8428696431_d61659242a.jpg)
Also, the bracket that holds that oil return line that would need to be modded to clear the Mk1 mount is gone.
TurboExhstModedOilLn
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8185/8428696467_4fc1cfab47.jpg)
hmm... no pics, new to this. There has got to be an easier way to link pics from flickr. I tried just about every option before I got links to the pics below the pics, and well... it works, sort of.
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I'll add to what I posted on the other board...
The mounts for the chassis are MK1, so it is close to ready for swapping.
The downpipe may interfere with the stock mk1 shift linkage, but a custom unit won't break the bank.
The pulleys for the waterpump & alternator can be replaced with non-freewheeling versions without much issue (maybe some shimming).
The little ECO turbo will give a nice bump in power, but not killer.
The numbers of the plate on the block and a close-up pic of the head behind the IP should tell what you really have (mech or hydro head, turbo or NA block ).
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I don't understand and it was too long to follow your first post completely.
The Eco, 1.5, 1.6n/a, and 1.6TD all will bolt into a MK1 if you have the engine mount *you do* and trans mount *you do* If it is a diesel car to swap to then it is simple. Fix the exhaust to fit, add or remove a/c and power steering to match the car. Everything else should be the same or close enough and easy. For instance, you may need to move the fuel filter as the airbox is different, but this isn't something crazy. All 8v 75-99 Vw engines would be an easy swap into your car. They are not that different.
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just finised with swap two weeks ago useing a 1.6TD from a 91 jetta, moved the fuel filter to the back side of tower 5 inches apx. to make room for the intake pipeing and modifyed the jetta air filter box to fit nice on that r/s , had to weld up/ move the exhast pipe a bit to clear the shift linkage. did find it easyer to install engine to r/s mount then install trans afterward . be careful of the top two trans bolts one may be longer than the other and bottem out in the hole and braking the block (saw a post here on that).
recommend changeing the timeing belt/ tensioner before installing $35.00 kit from AZAUTOHUSE.and valve cover gasket.
did have a issue that when i replaced the timing belt, the I/P ft seal started to leak i was moveing the shaft of it checking for play/wear there was a bit but just enought to crack the old seal, installed new seal and its been good to go now. i made up a belt idler for the fan belt from the alt to crank on the top side to take the whip out and stop alt from slipping but hope to post that soon on the UPGRADES section.
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I just finished a painfull 5 month swap. It should have not taken that long but i made some mistakes. And it was an ecodiesel. Good luck finding that mount that goes around the turbo oil drain. I would check with quality german in california. Thats were I got my engine from.
One big mistake i made and kept making was timing, get the kit to hold your cam and fuel pump in place before you pull the belt and make sure its all at tdc before separating the tranny.
I made my intake witch was easy just get a 2 inch to 3 inch ruber adapter from an auto parts place and then i put cheapo autozone tubing on there and some aftermarket tuner baby filter.
I have a mk 2 so the down pipe diddn't interfere with anything else so i lucked out there but had a custom exhuast made. While the exhuast is out I would change the shifter ball if mk1s have one of those.
Any other questions feel free to ask.
I got my turbo rebuilt and part of the warranty required getting a new oil feed line. Well after about a month of searching one of my buddies that works at cummins told me to take it a hose shop. The made one from high heat ruber on the spot for 35 bucks. Now I smell something burning and Im keeping an eye on that house. I really hope it holds. im thinking the burning could be the new paint on the turbo but i dont know.
Oh almost forgot. On the top of the intake manifold where the rubber hose comes in from the turbo there is a flat spot. Drill and tap this for a boost guage sending unit.
Oh and i spent a good hour trying to get my alternator to tension. Get rid of the whole system and get a http://www.biconet.com/birds/GIFs/stealth/acc/cableTensioner2.jpg what ever one of those bolts is called with eyes on both sides. Cost me like 5 bucks at the hard ware store and i had washers laying around. So easy. I had a buddy hold the alternator with the belt on while i put the bolts threw the alternator bracket and eys and then tensioned it right up.
Good luck with every thing.
James
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^^^^ The smell is likely the paint, but keep your eyes peeled for oil leaks.
No worries on the motor mount, the MK1 mount is different (goes out to the right side). The small bracket for the line is a good idea tho.
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This has been done at least a trillion times over. The information is out there ;). Trust me, I've written some of it lol.
All the 4 cylinder Volkswagen engines from 74-2004.5 share the same block, and therefore for the most part (most definitely the important holes) all have the same mounting holes.
Put ALL of your mk1 engine stuff on the mk2 engine and its a direct bolt in swap. The only thing is the mk2 exhaust manifold is over to the drivers side a few inches which interferes with the shifter linkages. But creativity can overcome that, I have done it twice. Two separate 1.6 TD engines, two separate mk1 cars. First one took a weekend, the second one took 8 hours for two people.
I can tell from your pictures the engine already has mk1 mounts on it, an those are 90mm axle hubs on the FF/FN 020. So as it sits.. it is a direct bolt in right now as we speak.
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It's in. It's Alive. It doesn't like hills.
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Turn in the fuel screw by a quarter turn and adjust idle down a tad. Sounds like it lacks fuel to pull against a load.
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I DUNNO what turbo the eco runs off hand.. But I am pretty sure that it is not smaller than the ko3 on the 1.9's.
Therefore you should theoretically have a good piece off power with this install.
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ECOs, got the k14... pretty small.
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I disagree. Yeah its small compared to a BIG Holset ;).
People recommend the k14 as an upgrade for the 1Z/AHU engines that got the ko3..
I can tell you right now I am maxxing my 020 clutch with a ko3...
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For anything less than 18 psi intercooled, the K14 is a better choice than any of the larger bolt-on VW turbos.
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The Eco K14 is smaller than the AAZ K14...
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The compressor is smaller on the ECO. The housings and turbine are the same.
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Massive Thanks to the community for all the advice and input.
re doesn't like hills; My son tried to take it up a hill with a pretty steep grade. It went gutless and blew black out the tail. After downshifting and no improvement and still black out the back, he decided to turn it around and abandon the hill attempt.
When I look closely at the waste-gate screw, I can see clean threads as if someone had backed it out quite a few turns.
When my son took it on the highway, he said he could get it to 70mph, and that when the turbo cut out it was gutless.
When we were first driving it out of the shop yard, the speedometer was making horrible noise. We shut it down and went to check the speedometer drive gear and cable in the transmission. It wouldn't come out.
We pulled the cable housing enough to peek in with a flashlight and saw the gear all ****-eyed [edit; half side-ways]. Had him put it in gear and we rocked it a bit while I pulled on the cable and it popped out. Gear was mangled, but was still on there.
Brainstorm - can't put it back in, gotta cover the port, hmm... Grab the lineman's pliers and pull the gear end out as far as we can out of the cable sleeve and 'snip.' Slip the housing into the port and tighten the screw.
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That doesn't look like the K14 that's on my ECOdiesel...
I think that's a K24 on there.
The inlet looks a lot bigger for one thing. Wastegate looks a bit larger too.
Also notice the tag with all the numbers is under the inlet on the compressor, this guys tag is on the opposite side on the top (like the K24).
K24 with turbo pump in a Rabbit should have no trouble going up some hills I'd imagine.
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The speedo gears are color coded per trans gearing, and cheap. So are the cables, don't buy an off-brand one, and lube it.
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K24 with turbo pump in a Rabbit should have no trouble going up some hills I'd imagine.
It is an 8mm pump, and the k24 won't be making good power unless you got it good and spooled. My 1.6 with the K24 doesn't like to pull up (accelerate) hills at anything below 2600.
His turbo has the tag on the bottom like other K14;s
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Someone must have swapped Injection Pumps. There's a spaceship looking gizmo (LDA?) on top of this one and it's connected to a vacuum port.
The pump numbers are:
NR 0 460 494 182
R 223 BT 4007
068 130 081 F
015 64? 82347
Bosch lookup = VE4/9F2250 R 223
The tag on the turbo under the intake is missing. There is one on the opposite side on the top. It's green and the info was written with an electric engraver. It says K14. But who knows what's really in there. The cold air intake is aprox 2 inches / 50.5mm or so diameter.
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The speedo gears are color coded per trans gearing, and cheap. So are the cables, don't buy an off-brand one, and lube it.
The only one we could find within 100 miles was a Cofle brand. Still hunting for a lock ring and white gear.
Would re-using the old lock ring be ok?
What kind of lube for the cable?
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K24 with turbo pump in a Rabbit should have no trouble going up some hills I'd imagine.
It is an 8mm pump, and the k24 won't be making good power unless you got it good and spooled. My 1.6 with the K24 doesn't like to pull up (accelerate) hills at anything below 2600.
His turbo has the tag on the bottom like other K14;s
I think there is some misunderstanding here...
There's no doubt from his pictures he has a turbo pump, which the ECO didn't have I know you know that.
Also you confused the picture I posted of my turbo on my car with what he actually has I think.
This is the tag I am talking about on his car. Scroll down for what a factory ECO K14 actually looks like.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/8428696431_d61659242a_zpscf29b926.jpg)
The tag on the turbo under the intake is missing. There is one on the opposite side on the top. It's green and the info was written with an electric engraver. It says K14.
Can you please get a better picture of that tag and post it?
It's very peculiar for a few reasons:
1.) Up until now possibly, every green tag I've seen has been on a Garrett turbo. KKK turbos have had a blue tag.
2.) All the smaller turbos (Garrett T2, KKK K14) I've seen for this era of VW diesels have the spot for the plate cast into the compressor housing.
All the larger turbos (Garrett T3, KKK K24) have the plate on the back side on the top.
Here are some pics of all the turbos I have for comparison.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image02_zps31eb74d8.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image07_zps58892348.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image06_zpsc877c5b0.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image03_zpsca787679.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image01_zpsa652fb86.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image00_zpscf65ab80.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image05_zps29b4235e.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image04_zps9b653233.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/VWturbos/image00_zps8cb71ad2.jpg)
Judging from your pictures you have the correct ECOdiesel intake manifold without the BOV cast into it.
The valve cover looks exactly the same as mine also since you were wondering.
I'd T a cheap boost gauge from the parts store into the line from the LDA and see how the boost is behaving while driving.
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Your tag pics have VW/AUDI part numbers. I wonder if ours is an orphan.
Tag Fields; CODE: (blank), MODEL: K14, GARRETT P/N: ?314-988-6033, CUST P/N: (blank), S/N: RCT?29051
TurboGreenTag
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8547264177_4e50f6cbd5.jpg)
In the pic below you can see where the tag is missing below the intake.
Questions;
1) Is there supposed to be a lock nut on what appears to be a threaded fitting on / in the wastegate?
There are a few turns of clean threads at the bottom, as if it were backed out a bit.
2) Is there supposed to be a hose that connects here?
The inside of the threaded fitting appears to be a Very small Hex.
That is the wastegate below the intake? Or am I totally lost?
TurboExhstModedOilLnWstgt
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8238/8547271469_104427331b.jpg)
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The wastegate dashpot should have a locknut.
If the IP aneroid has a vacuum line connected, it is serving as an ADA, not an LDA. The aneroid can be changed to LDA, if you can get the proper fittings.
As stated awhile back, it might be helpful to post the block numbers, found on the flat near the vacuum pump, just below the water outlet. That may show if it is a turbo block or an NA block. The turbo blocks have oil squirters to cool the pistons.
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Someone must have swapped Injection Pumps. There's a spaceship looking gizmo (LDA?) on top of this one and it's connected to a vacuum port.
The pump numbers are:
NR 0 460 494 182
The 6th digit in bold, in this case the "9" is the plunger size of the pump, it is not an ECO pump as it has a 9mm plunger.
8=8mm
9=9mm
0=10mm
1=11mm
2=12mm
Edited for correction
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Someone must have swapped Injection Pumps. There's a spaceship looking gizmo (LDA?) on top of this one and it's connected to a vacuum port.
The pump numbers are:
NR 0 460 494 182
it is an ECO pump with a 8mm plunger.
Not an ECO IP.
Stock Eco IP has no aneroid.
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Above post edited, apparently today is not my day. Back to bed!
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The speedo gears are color coded per trans gearing, and cheap. So are the cables, don't buy an off-brand one, and lube it.
The only one we could find within 100 miles was a Cofle brand. Still hunting for a lock ring and white gear.
Would re-using the old lock ring be ok?
What kind of lube for the cable?
Cofle used to be OK, I got one that was listed as that or Gemo awhile ago that I think was a fake, or there production has gone to crap, it had
powdery *** metal that was a cheap looking silver color instead of anodized gold like they used to be, and it's noisy.
Technically you are supposed to use powdered graphite, but any decent oil should be fine, hang it up and let it drip through.
The lock ring, where the gear snaps on? Those are a pain, and either not included with the new cable sometimes or the one included does not fit.
Re-use, carefully, it's hard to tell when the gear pops into place on the cable sometimes, look real hard and measure how far it should sit over
the cable. The gear should be available from the dealer. Noisy speedo cables suck.
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The wastegate dashpot should have a locknut.
If the IP aneroid has a vacuum line connected, it is serving as an ADA, not an LDA. The aneroid can be changed to LDA, if you can get the proper fittings.
As stated awhile back, it might be helpful to post the block numbers, found on the flat near the vacuum pump, just below the water outlet. That may show if it is a turbo block or an NA block. The turbo blocks have oil squirters to cool the pistons.
Engine Block ID is 1V, the rest is unreadable.
The numbers from the head are: 068 103 373 T
The wastegate dashpot locknut is missing.
Is there supposed to be a hose connected to the wastegate dashpot?
When I Google ADA, I found info about Mercedes and that it reduces the amount of fuel when "you drive up in the mountains, the fuel will be reduced because there is less air to burn with it. If the fuel is not reduced, increased smoking/poor fuel mileage would result, and probably increased engine wear."
I also found reference that an "ADA feed from the bottom of the diaphragm to some kind of a container."
So an ADA is an altitude compensator to reduce fueling at certain altitudes under load?
And this thing is hooked up wrong?
I find mention that Turbo diesel IP get plugged into vacuum at intake manifold, and another said the LDA nipple gets connected to the compressor side of the turbo.
There's a pic of a TD IP with LDA and a another pump that looks slightly similar to the one we have here: http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7465 (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7465)
ADA, LDA, connected here, there; Now I'm so confused.
The pump is allegedly a TD pump.
But it doesn't have boost enrichment?
If it was an LDA, where would it be connected to?
To clarify my poor description; Here is a pic of the line from the IP to the intake:
Not saying this hook up is correct, but it was how we got it.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8549005369_e4a6c845b7.jpg)
I'll get more pics of the pump from different angles it will help or if needed.
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Ahh... good. 1V is bona-fide eco block.
The IP has a boost pressure line going to the aneroid, so that's a true LDA.
There is not any hose to the dashpot, just the hardline shown in earlier pix. Not sure the effect the missing locknut will have.
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My son reports that he adjusted the accelerator cable. Now, when the rpms get up a bit into boost range there is a significant surge of power through all gears ranges and you can feel the additional torque. He says when the boost cuts out it is no longer gutless, it just doesn't have as much power.