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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on December 31, 2012, 05:20:22 pm
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What a conundrum. So Saturday morning I ripped the 1.6 TD apart. It was getting its pump resealed, cleaned up and governor modded. While I had that out I replaced and pimped the glow-plugs, replaced the fuel filter, and added clear fuel lines from filter to pump, and pump back to the main return line. I also bought a huge 1050CA battery to put in as well ;). I got everything done (reseal, glow plugs, battery) within a few hours of taking it apart. Set the timing to 0.040", rotated several times, everything remained proper.
So I couldn't get the pump full of fuel because of the temperatures and not being able to fit my lines over the end of a funnel. So I waited until this morning, when I went and got a 12v universal fuel pump to put in line before the fuel filter in the engine bay. It would not pull a drop from the tank.. like WTF right? So I get some shop air on the return line to pressurize the tank, which finally gets some fuel moving up the feed line. Fill the filter full of fuel, fills the pump, and I can see all the air exiting the pump via my clear fuel lines. Crack the injector lines, and crank it over till I get fuel at all four injectors. Get fuel at all four and tighten them back down. Crank it over a bunch without glows to fully prime everything. Hit the glows and crank-crank-crank. Nothing. No fire. No smoke.
I get out and check that I have 12v at the solenoid, and that it is in fact clicking yes it is. I also tested it when it was apart. It works. I tested all four glow plugs before I installed them, and with 12v they all got super red in about 6 seconds (duraterms). I tested my relay setup, and I am getting voltage to it when the ignition is turned on. The glow plugs are also all getting voltage. I have (well had.. lol) the battery fully charged, and had the jumper cables to another running vehicle and a booster pack also attached to the cars native battery terminals. So yes, I also had cranking amps, and the starter was spinning faster then it ever would with only one battery.
I've got fuel, I've got glow plugs, I've got cranking power and the timing is set to 0.040".. what the hell is going on. I am not getting any smoke from the tail-pipe either ???
So I've done this many many many times. Not my first rodeo as you all know, I know the quirks, I know the tricks. I have done them all. Still nothing, HELP ME LMAO.
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Run it off a bottle
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The clear lines I used are less than flexible at cold temps lol. If I could never take them off again I'd be happy. This pump ran the car Saturday morning, well it had an NA lid on it then.. but the pump itself still ran.
I'd agree with the bottle running if I weren't 100% it were pulling fuel. But why else would you run from the bottle?
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Floor it while you're cranking. How deep did you pull the pump apart?
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This one was just a quick job. I didn't take the vane pump assembly out, or the advance piston and cage. It was only leaking from the head seal really, so I had an extra.
I always have it floored when I am cold starting or trying to first start them. No smoke what-so-ever out the tail pipe.. its weird.
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Given all you've done, I'd flip the lines and injectors, crank to verify they're spraying. (Fuel at the hard lines might not be at break pressure.) Pull those heat shields or they'll blow out.
You could check compression, but the thing ran three days ago, right?
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It ran three days ago with no issue other than a dieing battery, a fuel leak and a few burnt out gp's.
Now I get no smoke at all.
Lets brainstorm on the possibility of it not hitting break pressures.. how would this happen? Bad high pressure head?
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Had this happen on my caddy last week after sitting for a few days. No smoke while cranking.
Did all the checks you mentioned even pulled fuel through the outlet fitting on pump with a vac-pump. Fuel appeared in clear line fairly quick.
Pulled outlet banjo bolt off and I could barley blow through it. A little compressed air reinstalled and started first try.
Second time this has happened in the last few months.
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Lets brainstorm on the possibility of it not hitting break pressures.. how would this happen? Bad high pressure head?
I'd first suspect the linkage under the lid - control collar might not be closing the spill port.
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It all went back together as per normal. Verified internal hook up by rotating the throttle shaft and feeling governor springs compress.. Also verified the control collar is in its proper spot in the throttle lever before I put the lid on.
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Small shim between the plunger and camplate...? No pressure, if that's fallen out.
Sorry to take potshots, but no smoke tells me no fuel or no compression - I would verifying the injectors are spraying.
Bottle feeding is good to validate vane-pump and fuel flow.
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Yes bottle feeding is good for that, but she ran three days ago man lol. I didn't touch the vane pump when I was in there.
No worries on the potshots, helps me think. No I definitely vaselined that shim in place like I always do.
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If you're getting fuel at the four injectors, the only thing left is timing. Any chance you're 180° out on the cam/pump relationship?
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Its a one hole pulley, and no even if it were a 2 hole I know the pump shaft key-way needs to point roughly at 11 o'clock when looking at the snout.
Getting a good amount of fuel at the four injectors, typical as I have seen when bleeding the air from them. Timed it to 0.040" and verified that after spinning the engine over by hand.
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You put a TD lid on an NA, or was it a TD pump before...?
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Stock TD, pump lid had a bum throttle bushing when i went to buy it. Swapped lids in the guys driveway and drove it home. That was in August, finally got around to fixing it lol. It is a full TD pump now again.
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Its a one hole pulley, and no even if it were a 2 hole I know the pump shaft key-way needs to point roughly at 11 o'clock when looking at the snout
... when the cam lobes are both pointing UP for the number one cylinder or the cam lock is in. I'm just looking for confirmation that you referenced the cam with the pump.
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... when the cam lobes are both pointing UP for the number one cylinder or the cam lock is in.
This is a hurtful comment, LMAO! Could I really be so stupid? I ALWAYS set the engine to TDC before I remove the pump.
Yes the cam and pump locks were used. It all remained in time after several revolutions. ;)
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It's not meant to be hurtful. Sometimes we all have 'doh' moments.
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;D
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It's not meant to be hurtful. Sometimes we all have 'doh' moments.
The LMFAO, was cheek in tongue sarcasm haha. I have checked and thought over everything.
As you say if I am getting fuel to all four injectors there is nothing much else it could be.
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Next step for me would be a tow start.
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Next step for me would be a tow start.
Extremely hard for me to do for two reasons, my neighbours are stuck up old rich ***'s, and the roads are all hard packed snow I dunno if it will work or just slide when you try to drop the clutch.. or if the two vehicle will get traction eh?
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Yeah that makes it harder. A nice aggressive tow-start is my BFH.
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I've never had to tow-start one of these. I've always just fixed the problem that is preventing it from starting. Try turning the max fuel screw in one full turn but be ready to shut it down quick if it races.
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I thought about doing that, but then i thought.. This pump lid ran the engine before as well and marked throttle linkage and always count turns out for max fuel screw. Plus its still got the collar on it. So its at stock right now if it were close flooring it should do it no??
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It's not meant to be hurtful. Sometimes we all have 'doh' moments.
Hence the Rookie/Newbie share thread. I tend to get that way if I am pushing it all day long and don't break for lunch or coffee. Brain just reverts to I Don't Know mode, or limp mode and I end up doing duh? stuff I laugh at the next day.
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I've never had to tow-start one of these. I've always just fixed the problem that is preventing it from starting. Try turning the max fuel screw in one full turn but be ready to shut it down quick if it races.
Yeah but he doesn't know what the problem is. At least if he gets it started then he can get a better idea of what the issue is by how it runs.
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Im going to guess low compression
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If I understand correctly, this was a TD pump with a NA cover on it, you resealed it and installed the original TD top cover that now has a new throttle shaft bushing?
Assuming that is correct, did you ever hear the car run with the original TD top?
I'd be winding the fuel screw in and taking it from there, or pull starting it. It'll be tricky in the snow but assuming you are on winters and not all seasons you should be fine.
Try running 12v from the battery to the stop solenoid. Sometimes these crazy cars forget to send power to the stop solenoid when you are cranking.
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Im going to guess low compression
Meh, I do not think so. Car has been daily use since August, and other than tough gp's and a weak battery it still started ok in the cold.
If I understand correctly, this was a TD pump with a NA cover on it, you resealed it and installed the original TD top cover that now has a new throttle shaft bushing?
I bought it as a car that could not sustain running, because of a severely buggered throttle bushing. It would run however with an electric pusher pump, just spewing out the throttle shaft.
Assuming that is correct, did you ever hear the car run with the original TD top?
Yes, it did.. just leaked.
I'd be winding the fuel screw in and taking it from there, or pull starting it. It'll be tricky in the snow but assuming you are on winters and not all seasons you should be fine.
Put in a fuel screw with no collar, and tried it at every spot until it was all the way in. I could not physically turn it in any more turns.
Try running 12v from the battery to the stop solenoid. Sometimes these crazy cars forget to send power to the stop solenoid when you are cranking.
Decent suggestion, seeing as though I have bled the injection lines and there is fuel bubbling out of there whilst cranking I think it would be safe to assume it is working properly, but I will give it a try!
I had the block heater on it for about 6 hours, got everything good and hot. Hooked up a jumper battery, and a running vehicle... starter spinning faster than it ever would with one battery alone. Glow plug sensor unhooked and allowed full glow on the plugs.
Pull starting ain't gonna make a lick of difference, trust me. It is spinning super fast, and a lot. It is moving fuel to the injectors, the glows are getting power, the fuel screw is maxed all the way in, What the hell.
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You need compression/heat and fuel at the proper time. If you have compression and fuel to the injectors, then what don't you have?
Make sure the advance lever is off, double check the cam to pump timing, turn the crank by hand with the injector lines off and visually see which delivery valve is spurting with the cam lobes up for #1.
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Did you ever try running from a bottle?
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You need compression/heat and fuel at the proper time. If you have compression and fuel to the injectors, then what don't you have?
What if the fuel is at the injectors, but it is not able to break them open??
Make sure the advance lever is off, double check the cam to pump timing, turn the crank by hand with the injector lines off and visually see which delivery valve is spurting with the cam lobes up for #1.
Advance lever was definitely off. Cam to pump was definite, I used both the pump and cam lock guarantee it. I can also guarantee that the pumps cam plate is installed correctly. I always install it with the little key/nub pointing up towards the governor assembly, at the same time I also verify that the pumps shaft key-way is also pointing towards the top of the pump.
I never did attempt a bottle run, its like -20@ lol. With the electric pusher pump, running from a bottle isn't gonna really do anything for me. I can see it moving the fuel through the pump before and while cranking.
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It really sounds like a fuel issue if you are getting ZERO smoke from the exhaust. Or did you plug up the intake with a rag or something?
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Holy shii... I just had an epiphany. When I had it apart I swapped on another head and distributor because it had good seals in it (head o-ring, solenoid, timing plug, and delivery valve coppers)..... however I am pretty sure that was on a pump that supposedly would "not pump fuel".. except when the guy had it, he claimed no fuel to the injectors. I have fuel to the injectors in the typical amount to be seen, so it is in fact pumping. Maybe this dizzy head is snarfed?
No rag in the intake, there is no intake on the turbo at all right now actually as I was working on the fuel lines and filter.
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Epiphany Sunday is next weekend. So the Wise men are working their way across the great white north right now I take it.
Are there differences in the delivery valves on these things? You may need to swap back to your old setup with new seals to figure this out. Or ask the camels before they leave.
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Delivery valves are pretty much all the same across the 1.5's and 1.6's. The 1.9 AAZ are similar as well, if not the same. Even my land rover pump had exact style delivery valves. The only different ones I have personally seen were the AHU ones, with about 22 small pieces each as compared to the 3 of every other DV lol.
It is more than likely the head and distributor causing me this grief.. and it is likely not making injection pressure.. DAMNIT.
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Maybe it has a CCW plunger...
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Would I not be at least seeing smoke somewhere? Or some sort of backfiring with 30+ seconds of cranking at like ~600 rpm?
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If it is a CCW plunger, you may see fuel at the injectors when cracked, but it won't ever develop injector break pressure.
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Ramp in the wrong direction on the cam plate eh? Interesting!
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No, it's not the camplate, it is the machining of the plunger. The fill port is offset differently in relation to the pressure port. It's actually even hard to see the difference. I think Tintin posted a picture a while back.
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I took a photo on an old seized 12mm (''R'' rotation)
Look at the delivery port location alignment compare to the filling groove at the top of plunger.
(http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/9118/trait2qz6.th.jpg) (http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trait2qz6.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5737/im001456sz3.th.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001456sz3.jpg)
And look at the filling port on the sleeve of the plunger.
(http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/2461/troufg9.th.jpg) (http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=troufg9.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8823/im001457fu0.th.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001457fu0.jpg)
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9577/im001458ta3.th.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001458ta3.jpg)
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Holy shii... I just had an epiphany. When I had it apart I swapped on another head and distributor because it had good seals in it (head o-ring, solenoid, timing plug, and delivery valve coppers)..... however I am pretty sure that was on a pump that supposedly would "not pump fuel".. except when the guy had it, he claimed no fuel to the injectors. I have fuel to the injectors in the typical amount to be seen, so it is in fact pumping. Maybe this dizzy head is snarfed?
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You swapped a a head without the plunger? That's a no no from what I've read. Plunger and head must be a matched set.
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I swapped on another head and distributor because it had good seals in it (head o-ring, solenoid, timing plug, and delivery valve coppers).....
I know that, and no I didn't ;) lol.
At least I only have to pull the pump and swap heads.. phew. 15 minute job start to finish ;) haha
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I know that, and no I didn't ;) lol.
At least I only have to pull the pump and swap heads.. phew. 15 minute job start to finish ;) haha
15 minute job huh? Shoot a video, then I believe you. lol
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15 minute job huh? Shoot a video, then I believe you. lol
X2 :-\
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That is just my signature thing, anytime I tell somebody we're gonna do something I give the ma time frame and it takes 4.5-6 times as long lol. Soo 1.375 hours seems legit.
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Just about right, 1.5 hrs. I can't seem to get it all set up, pull the pump and get it on the bench in less than a half an hour. But with all the extra hose and hoops I have to get through I wonder if that isn't considered a good time.
15 min. I can get the hood up and the tools out and then I need a 5 min coffee break.
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Holy shii... I just had an epiphany. When I had it apart I swapped on another head and distributor because it had good seals in it (head o-ring, solenoid, timing plug, and delivery valve coppers)..... however I am pretty sure that was on a pump that supposedly would "not pump fuel".. except when the guy had it, he claimed no fuel to the injectors. I have fuel to the injectors in the typical amount to be seen, so it is in fact pumping. Maybe this dizzy head is snarfed?
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You swapped a a head without the plunger? That's a no no from what I've read. Plunger and head must be a matched set.
head and distributor would lead me to believe he replaced it as a set..
the rotor or bore may be worn too much, meaning it will NEVER produce break pressures..
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Interchanging heads and plungers is a big no no as I know it because they are lapped together to get that micro fine tolerances needed to make the pressure desired. I really can't see the differences in the pictures and I get the Forbidden flash at me when I try to make them big. So we have to watch the type of plunger as well as the machining of them do we? OK, into the brain goes that fact. thanks for the share.
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I was done a few hours back, but I done gone ran outta propane so I was out there in the elements! I have been resting with beer since, lol. It was not a reverse plunger setup, but changing out the head and plunger did solve my problem.. I'm gonna assume that this head is trash as it has not worked twice now in two different bodies.
See this thread (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31905.msg302085#msg302085) for the continuation of my story :)