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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Lando on August 24, 2012, 08:07:04 pm
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I am the new owner of a 1.5D in my 1980 rabbit. I am fairly new to VW diesels, but not to IDI diesels.
I recently discovered the block is cracked through one of the head bolt holes. I am picking up a short block tomorrow, the guy says it was running before he sold the head. I am planning on reusing the head, and upgrading to ARP studs to prevent the block from cracking again.
I'll be bringing a set of telescoping gages and micrometers, and checking out the block for cracks especially around the head bolt holes.
Does anyone have a link to where I can find specs for all the key measurements?
I am planning on re-ringing, replacing the bearings, HG and all gaskets. I've got a new water pump, timing belt and tensioner. I've rebuilt the injectors (new nozzles and needles) and shimmed them to spec. I have also rebuilt the vacuum pump.
So is there anything I am missing on my list? I wanna get it done right.
Also, are elring head gaskets a good choice? IME, they are the best for european cars, and often the OES.
Thanks in advance,
David
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Don't bother rebuilding a 1.5... Find a 1.6TD... The only vwdiesel worth rebuilding made pre 1992.
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Don't bother rebuilding a 1.5... Find a 1.6TD... The only vwdiesel worth rebuilding made pre 1992.
I suppose I didn't mention my goals. This will be a commuter which will see 90+ miles a day. I do not care about power. All I want it to do is get 50+ MPG on the highway and for it to be reliable. The only major problem I have heard of on these is the block cracking, and ARP studs should seriously reduce the chance of that happening. With that in mind, would you still recommend replacing the motor with a newer 1.6 when I could get this one running as new for less than $300 bucks?
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What causes the blocks to crack through the bolt holes is water and oil in the bottom of the bolt holes. When the bolt goes in the oil has nowhere to go so it splits the bolt boss when the pressure gets high enough.
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What causes the blocks to crack through the bolt holes is water and oil in the bottom of the bolt holes. When the bolt goes in the oil has nowhere to go so it splits the bolt boss when the pressure gets high enough.
The ARP studs bottom out in the threads, leaving very little room for oil or water to accumulate. Also, when torquing, the bolts push outward on the threaded area of the hole as they resist the friction of the threads and the tension in the bolt. ARP studs only put the tension of the stud on the threads because the friction is dissapated in the threads between the stud and the nut.
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Don't bother rebuilding a 1.5... Find a 1.6TD... The only vwdiesel worth rebuilding made pre 1992.
I suppose I didn't mention my goals. This will be a commuter which will see 90+ miles a day. I do not care about power. All I want it to do is get 50+ MPG on the highway and for it to be reliable. The only major problem I have heard of on these is the block cracking, and ARP studs should seriously reduce the chance of that happening. With that in mind, would you still recommend replacing the motor with a newer 1.6 when I could get this one running as new for less than $300 bucks?
I would at the very least go with a 12mm 1.6. Then you won't have to worry about block crackage. I would also suggest going with a turbo anyway. It's not like it makes it a rocket ship. It just makes it so that you can pull out on the highway and not be crushed. Keeping up with the flow of traffic is pretty nice. Just saying.
$300 is a good price but if you can do a 12mm N/A for the same price. I would.
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$300 is a good price but if you can do a 12mm N/A for the same price. I would.
$100 for the shortblock, $75 for factory rings, $90 for ARP studs. Gaskets are already bought and paid for. I can't imagine I could get a 1.6 for that price. What other problems may I encounter with a 1.5?
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You can put those 1.5 guts in a 1.6 block,.. but the small oil drain hole on the front of the head won't match up.
The bolt holes usually crack because the bolts don't go deep enough, too much stress in a small area,
not because the bolts are so tight in their threads that a fluid can't even escape past them when bolts are tightened slowly.
The 11mm block is a good option as long as you have the head studs,.. I boosted past 30psi with the old VNT-15 with the vanes locked closed, a couple times
and 11mm headstuds are cheaper than the 12mm ones.
If you do decide to use the 1.5 block; use a hose from the block to the intake to help vent the block. The front oil return is too small and returning oil can be blown back into the head.
I don't know what measurements you'll need, other than making sure the cylinders aren't bored too big.
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too much stress in a small area, not because the bolts are so tight in their threads that a fluid can't even escape past them when bolts are tightened slowly.
The problem comes when there is enough oil and water left in the bottom of the bolt hole that it is being squirted out the spaces between the head bolt and the threads in the block. Especially if you do it slowly. All of the air escapes and you have a completely filled hole when the threads pull tight as you take up tension on the bolt. And then you put another 1/2 turn or better as you bring it up to the final torque setting. I have watched this happen while watching someone else torque a head of a 1.5D. I watched the bolt click the torque wrench and then there was a little pop and the bolt went another 1/4 of a turn and oil was weeping out the minute, new crack in the block.
I expect that this only happens with good smooth threads in the block and the bolt, but it is real.
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I can't remember assembling a motor without blowing teh
gunk form the bolt holes first....
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I can't remember assembling a motor without blowing teh
gunk form the bolt holes first....
^This
Hello fellow TB'r
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While proper bolt hole prep will reduce likelihood of the block cracking, it still happens frequently regardless of bolt-hole prep. They will still crack even when using ARP studs. BTDT. IMO, the 11mm blocks are not worth assembling.
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What causes the blocks to crack through the bolt holes is water and oil in the bottom of the bolt holes. When the bolt goes in the oil has nowhere to go so it splits the bolt boss when the pressure gets high enough.
no, thats not the only thing that splits these blocks..
the bolts only engaging half of the threaded boss works against them as well
i cracked a block from boost..
the head had never been off before i got it, and i removed it with extreme drive pressure..
To the OP:
ive built/rebuilt more 1.5Ds than i care to count, and they ALL crack..
the 1.5Ds are not really worth messing with. thats why i got rid of all mine.
get a 1.6. the 1.5 only gets like .2mpg better, and is way harder to get parts for.
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Well the clock is ticking on my setup but i'm running 1.6 internals in a 1.5 block (due to my lack of knowledge in my early days) with studs. It sees 15psi daily along with 1300degrees occasionally. It has been this way for over three years and the only issues i have had is keeping head gaskets on it. So if you wind up with no other options it won't be the end of the world to use a 1.5 . But i do agree that a 1.6 is far superior in many ways.
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Picked up the block today, it was too good of a deal and I couldn't find any used 1.6 motors with 12mm head bolts. I also got a set of these for $75 bucks:
(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af212/Doittwice/IMG_0318.jpg)
Got the studs ordered, now I just gotta measure for the head gasket and bearings.
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Don't know where you are, but there's lots of 1.6 engines floating around. I've got a few here, 2 complete with broken timing belts, and more in pieces. I KNOW I'm not the only one. They're a lot more reliable and easire to get parts for!
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I looked on every VW forum I know of, local classifieds etc for a week or so. All I could find were 11mm 1.6's.
We'll see how far this 1.5 gets me. I've read enough success stories with the ARP studs that I'll give it a try. I'll be keeping an eye out for a 1.6L incase this doesnt last.
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If you put your location in your profile so we could all see it, maybe someone would let you know they had one close.
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Oh i didn't realize I was with holding that information. I am in salt lake city.
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Here's a pic of the block, no cracks, deck is flat, bores look decent will just need a hone.
(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af212/Doittwice/IMG_2952.jpg)
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Some one on here must be able to ship this man a decent 12 mm block. Ship in a tub with grey hound and it will probably cost $50 in shipping.
Sent from my DROID X2
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Too late. The turd polishing has begun.
(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af212/Doittwice/IMG_0322.jpg)
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What causes the blocks to crack through the bolt holes is water and oil in the bottom of the bolt holes. When the bolt goes in the oil has nowhere to go so it splits the bolt boss when the pressure gets high enough.
no, thats not the only thing that splits these blocks..
the bolts only engaging half of the threaded boss works against them as well
i cracked a block from boost..
the head had never been off before i got it, and i removed it with extreme drive pressure..
To the OP:
ive built/rebuilt more 1.5Ds than i care to count, and they ALL crack..
the 1.5Ds are not really worth messing with. thats why i got rid of all mine.
get a 1.6. the 1.5 only gets like .2mpg better, and is way harder to get parts for.
For some reason he left out the fact that none of his 1.5s had head studs.
You'll be fine rebuilding a 1.5 with headstuds.
Toby: I still don't believe you can crack it by leaving oil in the holes, even when turning slow.
Your example of it happening wasn't conclusive, you heard a noise and it cracked doesn't mean oil in the bolt hole caused it.
No way I will ever believe the threads are so tight fitting that oil can't even pass through them.
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I had an 11mm block crack when using ARP studs with meticulously cleaned and prepped bolt holes. I won't even do a head gasket anymore on an 11mm block.
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I had an 11mm block crack when using ARP studs with meticulously cleaned and prepped bolt holes. I won't even do a head gasket anymore on an 11mm block.
Is it possible that it had a slight crack to begin with? The threaded holes are about 28mm deep, ARP studs bottom out, compared to the 12-13mm of threads on factory head bolts. With over twice the thread length, I am hoping it wont crack. If it does, whatever. I wasted $100 and a few hours.
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If you do crack it the 100. isn't wasted you could sell them to almost any gasser guy and recoupe the cost.
I have seen a video of a guy cracking the head bolt bosses with 45lbs on a junk block. The holes were filled with oil, 1/2 full, and a couple almost empty, but they did crack. All in all everyone is right on here from what I have heard about the 11mm blocks just being weak, so good luck.
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If you do crack it the 100. isn't wasted you could sell them to almost any gasser guy and recoupe the cost.
I have seen a video of a guy cracking the head bolt bosses with 45lbs on a junk block. The holes were filled with oil, 1/2 full, and a couple almost empty, but they did crack. All in all everyone is right on here from what I have heard about the 11mm blocks just being weak, so good luck.
I meant the $100 I spent on the short block. I know I could resell the ARP studs.
With the deal I got on the eibach sportlines (the guy selling them forgot he had them until I made him scour his shed for parts), I wouldn't consider it a loss, even if the block did crack.
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Don't bottom the studs, hold them ~1/4 turn shy.
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Don't bottom the studs, hold them ~1/4 turn shy.
bottoming out the studs will make them crack easier as well..
am i the only one that hadnt cracked my 1.5 from tightening the bolts?!
mine died from extreme drive pressure.
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I wasn't going to bottom the studs out, just illustrating the point that they go to the bottom.
Static analysis of the system with bolts bottomed out will result in 2x the radial pressure pushing on the sides of the threaded holes.
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I have never even stripped out or cracked 11mm bolts when reusing the stock bolts
and have put a VNT-15 with the vanes locked closed on a 1.5L block with ARP headstuds.
Boosted to 35 with the great backpressure of a VNT working against it,.. a couple times. With no adverse effects.
Sidenote: I replaced the stock headbolts 1 at a time withy ARP headstuds and was worried it might leak but it worked great.
My TD Golf by comparison has 12mm raceware headstuds ,... oil seeping from the front and I retorqued them after seeing coolant coming up around the threads of a stud.
I think Andrew just got a bad 11mm block.
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I am about to try pushing my luck on an 11mm block and factory bolts. I have done 3 or 4 in the past with no issues. Ignorance used to be bliss 20 years ago (before the internet).
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I think Andrew just got a bad 11mm block.
I guess that's the easy out. Yes, it was a bad 11mm bloc, IMO they all are... It was during a head gasket change, so I didn't have the block magnafluxed, but I did clean the deck surface meticulously and inspected around all the bolt holes with a light and magnifying glass. I prepped each bolt hole meticulously and torqued the ARP studs to spec. All for naught.
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I have never even stripped out or cracked 11mm bolts when reusing the stock bolts
and have put a VNT-15 with the vanes locked closed on a 1.5L block with ARP headstuds.
Boosted to 35 with the great backpressure of a VNT working against it,.. a couple times. With no adverse effects.
Sidenote: I replaced the stock headbolts 1 at a time withy ARP headstuds and was worried it might leak but it worked great.
My TD Golf by comparison has 12mm raceware headstuds ,... oil seeping from the front and I retorqued them after seeing coolant coming up around the threads of a stud.
I think Andrew just got a bad 11mm block.
i boosted up to 35 many a time..
its not till i boosted it up and left it there for a mile or so, that it popped..
popped somewhere north of 40psi.. 30psi is at like 4'oclock on my gauge, well, i had it almost wrapped back to the 0 peg.. lol.
blew a chunk clear out of the head gasket..
and the #4 end of the block was TRASHED..