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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: roachie on March 07, 2012, 10:49:41 pm
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Ive searched and searched to no avail on here. Let me preface this by saying that this is far from my first swap, or performance diesel, but I am very new to the VW stuff. From what I can tell I have an 87ish engine from a Jetta, it is a factory turbo engine, has oil squirters in the block and has a hydraulic head. When I bought the engine is was apart and there are a few things I need answers too.
My cam shaft, injection pump, and intermediate shaft have keyways but I have no keys. I then noticed that at least one pulley does not have a key way in it. All or just some?
Next, I have what appears to be a vacuum pump at the flywheel end of the engine?
Can anyone tell me what the maximum inlet pressure on the injection pump is? I know that the dodge VE pump can take 500psi, my stock pump on the yota makes about 96. Not real sure what it needs for a supply pressure.
Any help is greatly appreciated. And for those that want to know, the engine has ARP cosworth studs and I have the pump at a shop right now getting maxed and benched. Compound turbos are in the works for it also. Trying to get 150hp or so from it.
here is the engine currently.
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419284_10150718984875850_777585849_11433506_1027028697_n.jpg)
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whoever told you that a bosch VE pump can handle 500 psi inlet pressure, is very high on something..
i wouldnt run anything more than like 20-30 psi inlet pressure, just to be sure that the input shaft seal isnt going to pop out..
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The intermediate shaft and pulley should have a key, as well as the injection pump pulley. The camshaft has a key way, but does not get a key. It is a pressure fit alone.
20-30psi on the very high side of things for inlet pressure.
Yes that is a vacuum pump on the flywheel side. It is driven by the intermediate shaft and drives the oil pump by a key in the bottom of it.
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I thought he was a bit high but I have seen others running close to 100 without issues.
Thanks for the info on the keyways. Are rebuild kits for the vacuum pump available or is it a replace only type thing?
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Well I do recall reading somewhere that Giles tested this theory, and the extra psi does nothing for our pumps.
The pumps are rebuildable, but I would suggest using that effort towards replacing it with a newer style vacuum pump. They are found in the later mk2's, and are called a Vane vacuum pump as opposed to the diaphragm pump you have. The diaphragm ones fail often and are just not as good, which is why VW replaced them ;) lol. The vane pumps are non serviceable, but hardly ever fail.
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The pump on these engines have a lift pump built right into the pump. But, from my experience the pump has a hard time sucking enough fuel from the tank on its own. My suggestion would be an electric lift pump designed for a carburetor. 3-8 psi is ideal but 90 is definitely on the high side. I ran a pump from a cummins 24 valve which put out around 12 psi and it was great except for the noise.
The camshaft has a keyway but the pulley doesn't. The cam pulley is a tapered fit and allows precise adjustment of valve timing. The injection pump and intermediate shaft have keyways and keys.
And yes that is a vacuum pump at the flywheel end of the engine.
I'm on my second vw powered toyota and once the second one is done I have a 4runner to do next. I'm almost done with the second one and it has a compound turbo setup as well. If you have any questions I'd be happy to help out.
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Makes me wish I hadnt thrown all those 24v pumps out now. I will start looking for a new vacuum pump.
How is yours for power? I am am a little concerned about that part, everything else seems rather simple.
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The first one was a mechanical tdi with a vnt turbo and the power was unreal. The second one that we're still working on is electronically controlled with compound turbos. It's a few days away from a real test drive so don't know for sure but it should also be unreal. I've seen at least one build with the 1.6 and power was more than acceptable.
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Makes me wish I hadnt thrown all those 24v pumps out now. I will start looking for a new vacuum pump.
How is yours for power? I am am a little concerned about that part, everything else seems rather simple.
Where are you located? I have a vane pump I'm not using.
edit: they're available new if you want to go that route but they're expensive.
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Im in TN, 37820. How much would you want for it?
And while I'm asking, has anyone here used Hans Diesel for parts? They seem suspiciously cheap.
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Im in TN, 37820. How much would you want for it?
And while I'm asking, has anyone here used Hans Diesel for parts? They seem suspiciously cheap.
Cheap for a reason ;). Really depends on the parts. I'd ask around here and the vortex about the particular part you are looking at to see if it has a failure rate.
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Hans = Prothe of NC
Cheap prices and cheaper parts.
About 5-10% of his stuff is okay - just ask.
His Injectors have gotten some good reports - looks like you might need some. Get regular TD 155 bar - not MercBenz nozzles he offers.
AutohausAZ.com and RockAuto.com have about same prices on most all the same stuff - but known euro brand names.
What is the suffix on the part number on your cylinder head ?
068 103 373 B = example
Too bad about the diaphragm Vac Pump
All TD's came with Vane, and all 85-newer NA had them also.
TD valve cover is different than yours, but may not matter in your application. They had a hockey puck oil breather on pass side with an outlet hose that went to turbo air intake snorkel.
Pimp the glow plug wires and get rid of the 1 piece buss bar.
Use ONLY Bosch glow plugs.
Duraterms are the best for about $1 more.
If you don't already have one - get an oil deflector that goes on top of camshaft - under valve cover. $5-10 new
.
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Im in TN, 37820. How much would you want for it?
And while I'm asking, has anyone here used Hans Diesel for parts? They seem suspiciously cheap.
$50. I'll include U.S. shipping with that.
It looks brand new but how do you test these? I'm thinking they don't pull a lot of vacuum until you spin it pretty fast.
If you're interested I'll try to post a photo tomorrow too.
Also, your coolant temp sensors, the ones with the spade connectors, what are they from? I have the other kind with the button connectors and I don't like them because they fall off.
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TD valve cover is different than yours, but may not matter in your application. They had a hockey puck oil breather on pass side with an outlet hose that went to turbo air intake snorkel.
If you don't have the plastic oil splash baffle under the valve cover, you might want to get one.
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Giles did do a test with input pressure on our pumps. The result was it had the ability for instant advance. It didn't change the overall advance as the pressure was constant on both sides of the pump and total advance *from what I have heard* is a relationship between the 2 sides and the difference of them.
Summary: Low pressure lift pump is a good thing for our VE pump.
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I'll just stay away from Hans then, I was looking for the gasket for the manifold to turbo and wound up there. I bought everything else from napa to rebuild it other than bearings (were not needed). BTW does anyone have a NAPA p/n for that one or the oem p/n?
My injectors are with the pump getting checked over as well. They had a lot of barn dust in the inlets so I sent them off to be redone.
I have a valve cover with the hockey puck breather, but the one on the engine was in with the boxes of parts and I just used it....mostly because I thought it looked a bit cleaner esthetically. And I do have an oil deflector luckily.
I will check the head number if I can remember tomorrow. And I was wanting to get rid of that bus bar, what gauge wire do they need per plug 10awg?
Anyone have a spec for crank endplay (thrust)? I think mine is a hair more than it should be.
And has anyone ran compounds on one of these? Having issues finding info on it other than bench racing about it.
I really do appreciate the help from you all.
$50. I'll include U.S. shipping with that.
It looks brand new but how do you test these? I'm thinking they don't pull a lot of vacuum until you spin it pretty fast.
If you're interested I'll try to post a photo tomorrow too.
Also, your coolant temp sensors, the ones with the spade connectors, what are they from? I have the other kind with the button connectors and I don't like them because they fall off.
You have a PM. And the top sensor on the head is from my toyota, the other I have no idea, it was on it when I got it. I has two blades for female connectors though.
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no gasket between the turbo and manifold..
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10 gauge is good for running seperate leads to each Gplug.
Here's a version of Pimp you can check out, and use some or all of his ideas.
Vince is a member/moderator here.
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=28
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He has a number of good pictoral/tutorials on other stuff too.
He's a VW afficionado hardcore.
A list of them on the homepage
http://vincewaldon.com
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Thanks for the links. Good info there, still debating if I will run the glow plugs or hook up an ether system.
I checked my head today and it has a "T " suffix. Does that mean anything significant?
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My $.02 ether system not recommended by VW for the idi engines -FYI.
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T is the faktry Hydraulic TD head. Bonus Points.
I'd stick with an electrical Glow Plug system.
They work very well.
Vince's system is somewhat elaborate.
The biggest/main weakness with stock system is the buss bar.
Lotta guys just run single leads connected from the main lead wire (wire that connects to buss bar).
The singles give you the ability to check Gplugs individually later down the road. And it makes removal/installation easier too.
And i forgot you're using a Toyota body that never had any diesel provisions to begin with.
I have made manual systems with a 50amp toggle and 50amp self-reset breaker for under $15 using AutoZone parts. Many different ways to set one up - just whatever fits the budget and needs.
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T is the faktry Hydraulic TD head. Bonus Points.
And i forgot you're using a Toyota body that never had any diesel provisions to begin with.
I have made manual systems with a 50amp toggle and 50amp self-reset breaker for under $15 using AutoZone parts. Many different ways to set one up - just whatever fits the budget and needs.
What is so special about that head?
I'll have to start accumulating parts for the glow plug system, I never have found a timer to rig up for one in a conversion and that always bugs me.
I think I have located a suitable low pressure turbo for the twins. Finding room for it on the truck will be an adventure.
Apparently the only place I can find an exhaust gasket is hans, $8 for both turbo gaskets. There is no way this can seal without a gasket.
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Well, it's got hydraulic lifters, the earlier heads have solid lifters and require regular adjustments. The other part is that it's a real turbo head, from a turbo car. They are slightly different, have sodium cooled valves... They're rare in the United States.
I'm shipping your part today. Just so you know, it goes where the distributor goes on a gas VW engine. The blocks are really similar, a lot of the gas stuff fits.
I don't think that gasket is terribly necessary but you can run one if you like. Or, you can use hi-temp RTV.
My Bentley manual doesn't have specs for end play, just axial play. It just says that it does have thrust washers so I'm guessing there is no adjustment for it.
Also, no ether, ever. There's just no good reason for it on any engine you care about. Old tractors and stuff like that used those fire in the hole starting systems but that was when glow plugs were not as advanced as they are today and when diesel engines did not have very high compression. Your engine has extremely high compression, even for a diesel. They are not known for being difficult to start, when everything is working properly. If you want to add additional starting heat, consider a glow coil like the Dodge Cummins or Ford Powerstrokes have, in the latter case they're like spark plugs with a coil on the end of them and heat the air as it passes through the intake.
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Ah, thanks for the info, and the part. I'll just use the glow plug system, though I am a firm believer that ether isnt the devil.
Got a call that they were starting on my pump today, and all of my injector tips needed to be replaced, just lovely. And hopefully my adapter plate will be here soon. I started cutting steel for the motor mounts today. Trying to figure out how I am going to mount the A/C compressor and power steering pump.
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Just an FYI
When I was a young member here I asked about casting numbers and suffixes. Small block chevys are great at listing casting #s and differences in them, so I figured most mfg's would be the same. The conclusion was that there is no rhyme or reason in the names VW gave to them. Although MOST that had the suffix T are turbo heads, and all I have ever heard of, there is no where anyone could point to in an EKTA or VW manual that states it as so. IIRC all the mech 12mm heads I have seen with the suffix F have been turbo heads, but again no real data to say that all were.
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The only oem I have seen that keeps any tabs on P/N's is cummins. Even then they have no idea what engine serial number got the bad block castings. Meh, the important thing is that it has a turbo and will soon have two turbos.
I do need to ask before I for get this, the water outlet at the end of the head.....where does that go on an oem application? I keep thinking it went to the heater core or back down to the water pump.
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The cylinder head coolant outlet at the end of the head goes to the heater core in a stock transvers VW arrangement. The other end of the core joins up via hose and a metal pipe at either the water pump or oil cooler depending on if you have one or not.
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So I can weld up a 5/8" barb and it will be fine?
What is this round thing on the intake manifold that attaches with a small Vband? It looks like a valve of some kind.
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That's a pressure relief valve for when boost gets too high.
You can pull the screw in the center, remove the spring and replace it with a small bolt and tighten down the screw again.
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So I can weld up a 5/8" barb and it will be fine?
If you get the factory Mk1 hose that connects to that outlet - it necks down to 5/8" if i'm not mistaken. Then you could just use a coupler/union from there.
If that helps any. The hose is $5-8.
The faktry TD heads had better alloy in the casting, harder more heat tolerant valve seats, sodium filled stems, and different size pre-cups / pre-chambers.
We know that NA heads will survive TD applications.
But its a bonus to have the TD head.
Just like its a bonus to have the TD block.
Your vac pump had me wondering how correct the rest of the stuff was.
Your oil filter stand is TD too.
Do you have the water cooled sandwich oil cooler for it ?
The metal distribution pipe for coolant hose connections, and the special coolant hoses ?
All that stuff can be bought new, if you need it.
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Ah, that is all very good news.
I think that the firewall clearance will be too tight to run a VW water outlet on the head at the rear unless they make one that has a 90* turn. Otherwise I will be dragging out the tig, probably just weld up that pressure relief valve while I'm at it.
I would assume that pump was left over from one of the 5 or 6 rabbits that guy parted out. The p/n on the turbo puts the engine at 1987 ish but that contradicts what I have read on the hydraulic heads. I do have the sandwich oil cooler and the metal tube with an outlet for it. On that subject, are these oil coolers something that fails regularly or is it safe to just reuse the one I have?
The boxes that came with it had alot of odd little parts. Still sorting through them finding little brackets and the occasional bolt (I'm missing many of the external ones). At one point I picked up what I thought was the harmonic balancer, after looking at it and the crank for a minute I realized I was holding a brake rotor for a rabbit..............Ive been working on cummins engines way to much. ::)
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LMAO on the brake rotor deal ! Good one
The TD did use a specific Harmonic Balancer - vs. NA application.
The Mk1 hose i mentioned does make a quick 90* molded turn.
But idunno if any of the outlets are made with 90* turns.
The hoses for the Distribution Pipe and Oil Cooler, etc....
I'd get the Mk2 versions.
Tigging the Over-Boost Valve area is a great fix.
There is a Billet Block-Off Cap made that uses the existing VBand - but its about $40. iirc
In USA we only got 85 86 TD and 91 92 ECO - and i always forget to get head info from the ECO's when i have had the chances. So your turbocharger could be from a Canadian 1987 TD. Or a Service Replacement from VW - cast in 1987.
Or your whole engine may have been of Canadian origin.
On the passenger side of your head next to where it says Germany - those circles with numbers imbedded - if you can get a close up picture of that spot - sometimes i can decipher the casting date from them. If you want to give it a try.
Have found casting dates on TD Intakes, and seems like the exh mans too.
Never found a casting date on any VW Dzl block.
The oil coolers condition are subjective to previous neglect.
As long as a cooling system was always maintained decently, they should hold up fine. Maybe fill the coolant section with lacquer thinner or mineral spirits and let it stand for a couple days, then observe. Whatever fluid you know of that has the highest viscosity (thinnest).
I've not had any problems with vintage ones yet. But others have.
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The head casting on my 92 Ecodiesel head is:
068 103 373 T
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Thanks for that info 92EDJ.
I had presumed they used the T head on ECO.
But only had 2 past examples to base that on.
Would like to get about 4-5 more originals found with T , so it doesn't fall into a claim - vs. a fact - before i start spewing it. lol
Probably should have mentioned the 83 84 TD also in USA to keep everything accurate.
And maybe a few 82 Quantums ?
Canada had TD option every year from at minimum - 83 to 97.
We got shanked hard on that.
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If anyone has a block without a flywheel or tranny attached -
there "MIGHT" be a casting date on the block within that area that the flywheel conceals. Its the only area i haven't been able to check for one yet.
And its only a wild guess at this point.
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I'll see if I can remember to snap a pic today.
It seems I have an issue with using the vane pump. The hole in my block is not near big enough for it. So I guess the diaphram pump will be getting rebuilt.
I have a nice vane pump for sale if anyone wants a spare. ;D
And the pump shop finally got my stuff done, they swapped the cam plate and some other things while inside of it. Should be interesting. Now if I can just find a low pressure turbo the right size for it I will be set.
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It seems I have an issue with using the vane pump. The hole in my block is not near big enough for it. So I guess the diaphram pump will be getting rebuilt.
I have never heard of that before.
And this is a hyd TD block.
Strange as he[[ ???
Anyone have any ideas about this ?
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It's 1,9 pump.
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My PartsPlace catalog lists 2 vacuum pumps (vane style), one for 80-92 1.6 engines (what about the late 70s engines?) and one for 93-99 1.9 and TDI.
The part number of the pump would confirm which one it is.
My guess is that it was a TDI pump but I'm genuinely concerned, I bought a bunch of stuff from a guy parting out a turbo 1.6 and he was also building a TDI to replace the 1.6TD. Did I get his TDI pump?
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I didnt grab the P/N try to remember tomorrow. It has to be for a TDI as the oring sealing area is completely different from the other pump and the drive gear is about .25" larger than the hole it goes in.
Little update on the truck, I got the engine in the truck, had to clearance the hell out of the oil pan. Also found out I have zero room for compound chargers with out getting a little creative with the plumbing. And the motor mounts will be a major PIA.
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/465799_10150768297160850_777585849_11624834_1469122058_o.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526454_10150763386385850_777585849_11599828_1258254394_n.jpg)
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HEY, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find a VW TARO badge for that thing PLEASE, would be SO HOT.
I might end up doing the same thing but with a N/A 1.6, will be GUTLESS.
Kinda posting just to follow, but also wanted to comment on the vw taro badge.
Also, since a few other people are following that know the glow plug setup, on my last rig that had a dash fire that ate everything, I had fast glow plugs and I just hooked up a heavy wire from the starter solenoid that put power to the plugs while the starter was turning. when I let off on the starter it was running. worked very well while i had the rig? any risk? too much load on the starter solenoid?
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What are you doing to make up the oil capacity that's lost to the clearancing? It looks like you loose nearly half a litre of capacity.
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What are you doing to make up the oil capacity that's lost to the clearancing? It looks like you loose nearly half a litre of capacity.
do a straight axle conversion, and run a normal oil pan...
that would fix the issues..
its that stupid, weak IFS differential getting in the way, making the cut-out pretty necessary in the pan..
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VW Taro badge? I need more info on that.
The best solution I have to fix the oil loss from that notch is too install a remote oversize oil filter but that has its own issues.
I am not SAS swapping this truck. The web wheelers can have that, for what I do IFS is perfect.
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VW Taro badge? I need more info on that.
The best solution I have to fix the oil loss from that notch is too install a remote oversize oil filter but that has its own issues.
I am not SAS swapping this truck. The web wheelers can have that, for what I do IFS is perfect.
i wasnt suggesting you do a SAS.. i was just saying that is one way to avoid hacking up an oil pan. was being sarcastic really.
the front differentials in IFS are weak tho. if you ask too much out of them, then you end up picking ring gear teeth out of the differential housing.. ive done it MANY times.. my 3.0 V6 decimates front diffs..
and you really should google search "VW Taro pickup"
they are just re-badged mid 90s toyotas..
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Any updates on this? Really interested to see how it moves with a non-vnt turbo on it. I have the adapter 'kit' from another toyota swap that was abandoned due to worn engine/lack of power and several members here have suggested that a 1.6 would be adequate...
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Ive been busy the past few weekends and havent touched it. I have to haul in my next project next weekend so it will likely be two weeks before I can touch it again.
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Finally got a chance to work on it. Got the mounts built, I did manage to move the engine over about a half inch from the original crank centerline so I can use a much less heavily modified oil pan. The alternator lost a large amount of room though. Does anyone have a pic of 1.6 with a/c power steering and an alternator on it viewed from the front?
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/535610_10150925370205850_777585849_11962501_172353603_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/462669_10150935522905850_777585849_11969027_1277175200_o.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/562190_10150935524710850_777585849_11969032_119843520_n.jpg)
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those motor mounts look like they will transfer a LOT of vibration
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those motor mounts look like they will transfer a LOT of vibration
thats what i was thinking!
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I have the same type on my fords, granted the I6 is much smoother they are just as smooth as the factory type. Besides room isnt something I have.