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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: steevz on November 04, 2011, 08:36:21 pm

Title: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 04, 2011, 08:36:21 pm
Alright, so I bought a 1982 Vanagon diesel 4 speed for $500, great deal I think.
Anyways, the previous owner claims it was running great until he ran out of fuel.
After putting some fuel into the van, he said it starting acting the way it is now.. so let me explain.

1) After glow plugs she fires right up, idle is rough and will stall out if not applying fuel. After warm it can hold a rough idle. Has been sitting for 3-4 months as well.
2) Constantly blowing smoke when idling, whitish blue, seems to be less or go away while driving.
3) The loss of power is insane, I don't know what size NA engine this is but I had a 90 1.6D Jetta that seemed like a rocket compared to this thing.
1st gear gets ~10-20km/hr, 2nd ~20-40km/hr, 3rd ~40-60km/hr, 4th ~60-80km/hr. That's making the engine sound like its red lining too. Also, if going up a hill it keeps losing speed until about 40-50km/hr which it has sorta hold. So a lot more gutless then a 1.6D.

After reading some people running out of fuel in diesels I heard to try changing the return lines as they could be throwing the timing off.

Please help me.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 05, 2011, 12:02:21 am
Those things are pretty gutless, so don't expect much in the way of power.

1) Did you at least drain the water out of fuel filter? Do that first.
2) Change the fuel filter.
3) Bleed the air out of the system by cracking the nuts on the lines at the injectors, one at a time while it is running. This will push any residual air out of the system. Leave them cracked until no bubbles show.
4) If this does not make it better, get used to the idea that you may have been lied to when you bought the van. Start phase 2 by checking pump timing, running a compression check and checking valve clearances and then pop test the injectors when they are out for the compression check. Be sure to replace the little heat shields under the injectors EVERY time you have them out. They are only a buck (US) on the interwebs.

It may be that when it ran out of fuel it sucked up some water and this was left in the pump, lines and injectors for that 3 or 4 months. Lets hope not.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 05, 2011, 12:44:08 am
Well, I was talking to the son of the guy who owned the van before I bought it, and he was the one driving it at the time and sounded pretty honest. The old man mighta been trying to bs saying it was a rebuild etc. It was a good deal for $500 anyway. Also, he said it started running rough immediately after putting fuel into it and starting it back up, he then limped it to his place and parked it where it has sat for a few months.

His son changed out the fuel filter before I bought it, so the filter has been replaced. I'll try and bleed the air out of the lines tomorrow morning. Thanks for the help, I'll post my findings tomorrow after bleeding.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 05, 2011, 02:06:05 am
Check for water in the filter first.

Just because he believes his story is true does not make it correct. He may have overheated it and just thought it was out of fuel. When he came back with extra fuel it may have cooled down. You just never know when dealing with non-car people.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 05, 2011, 09:55:23 am
Very true. Will do.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 05, 2011, 09:54:40 pm
After inspection of the timing belt I've noticed it's extremely worn. You can see the steel part of the belt through the rubber, and it feel pretty loose.. it's easy to slide side to side on the sprockets. I'm thinking making it skipped a tooth and the timing is outta whack? Think it might produce my symptoms? I'm going to try get a new belt on it tomorrow and hope I can figure out a way to time the pump... hopefully I can find a dial.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 05, 2011, 10:32:13 pm
Check the cam and IP timing before you take it apart, otherwise you won't know if there was a problem. You will need the cam lock plate, but that is easy generate for a one off belt change. You can use a deep socket in the 10mm range for the lock pin for the IP.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 05, 2011, 10:54:10 pm
Can you point me in the right direction for doing so? All I've found for injection pump timing is getting everything to TDC flywheel, cam, and pump, then then using a dial indicator in the pump to set the timing?

Edit: Nevermind. I was tired.. I found what I need. Thanks.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 06, 2011, 12:31:45 pm
I am having trouble finding TDC on my flywheel. Is this it? That mark only appears once and there are also two nubs.

(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMAG0182.jpg)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 06, 2011, 03:33:12 pm
Well, I'm pretty certain the v notch is TDC after reading around and my timing is definately off with my loose belt.

For some reason following Vincent's timing how to he says to loosen the nut on the camshaft and then gently hit it with a hammer and it should freely move without moving the engine. Although I can not get this to move out far enough to rotate freely of the engine.. I might just swap the timing belt as I have another here and in the process get it to TDC. Maybe there is another trick to getting the camshaft out of the sprocket.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 06, 2011, 09:26:51 pm
The first thing you need to do is lock the cam at the rear with the cam lock plate. There is a groove at the back of the cam that the plate slides into. You can usually find a wrench or something that is a tight slip fit into the groove. You will probably have to pull a couple of cam cover studs to get clearance for a wrench.

Then look to see if the flywheel is at TDC (the V notch). If not, loosed the cam sprocket and move the crank to TDC and retighten the bolt. Things often move a bit so recheck when everything is tight.

To get the cam sprocket loose, just back the bolt out 1/8" and give it a sharp rap on the back side with a hammer. You should only need one rap with the hammer. The sprocket is a tapered fit on the camshaft and the belt will loosen a bit when it slides down the tapered nose of the cam.

THEN REMOVE THE LOCK PLATE. Set up the dial indicator and set the timing to .105mm and call it good.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 06, 2011, 10:42:04 pm
It was tight in there.. like ... really tight. I tried a rubber hammer as suggested then bought a puller which happened to have too short of arms. The bolts on the puller were resting on the side of the cyl head and the pressure was in the wrong spot and broke the cam at the very end.. The round part where the lock is. On the top thin edge. I just went out and bought a 1.6d engine tonight that has 146k kms on it. Been sitting for a few years.. maybe 7 or 8.. just need to look into getting this thing going after sitting for so long.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 07, 2011, 08:43:08 am
A rubber hammer won't do it. You need a metal hammer to get the sharp rap that will unseat the taper. So you broke the back end of the cam where the slot for the lock is? If that is all that broke, its no big deal. It just makes it harder to set the cam timing.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 07, 2011, 11:35:00 am
Where do you rap it.. on the cam (doubtfully) or do I hit the bolt head?

(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMAG0184.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMAG0183.jpg)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 07, 2011, 11:55:52 am
you hit the back of the sprocket. to get it off the cam. you dont hit the bolt or the cam..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 07, 2011, 11:58:56 am
Thank you muchly.. that was never clear to me.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 07, 2011, 01:00:59 pm
Looks like he will be at least using the engine he just bought for a cam replacement.  Ouch that looks ugly.  But it may still work, what is the concencus on that? 
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 07, 2011, 01:51:50 pm
Well.. I found a replacement cam for $50. I'm just going to try putting that in before dismantling the other engine.

I have never tried removing a cam, learning as I go.. I've done clutches, head gaskets, etc, etc, without a hitch.. just learning.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: burn_your_money on November 07, 2011, 04:11:22 pm
Make sure you follow the proper procedure for tightening and removing the cam or you will snap it.

You could probably still use the cam that is in there but since you already bought another I'd swap it if the journals are in good shape.

Does anyone else think the oil looks weird?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 07, 2011, 05:17:06 pm
Oil looks on the tarry side to me.  But then doesn't it always look that way under those places on the cam? 
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 07, 2011, 11:36:27 pm
Get yourself a Bently manual and read before you beat on things. It will save you vast amounts of money.

As bad as it looks the break in the thrust face is not fatal, just ugly.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 09, 2011, 01:35:18 am
I already got the new cam in.. and I fab'd a timing belt tensioner tool at work. I'll give it a shot tomorrow and try getting everything back together.. Will post update.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: rabbitman on November 09, 2011, 11:28:17 am
Does anyone else think the oil looks weird?

Looks like it needs to get changed really bad, possibly even has coolant in it.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 13, 2011, 10:09:37 pm
Try charging the battery and THEN see if it will crank the motor fast enough to start. If not take it to Schmucks or AutoBone and have them load test it.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 12:18:21 pm
Well, here is a video of it running.
http://youtu.be/WGycgx82DSU
Idling, blowing smoke, rev blowing smoke, and stall failing to catch it's idle.

I redid the timing. Everything is right on check, the IP pump wasn't responding to turning it to advance/retard timing so I turned the IP pump sprocket back one tooth. Still running the same. Rotating the pump while idling doesn't make any noticeable changes in the timing. Still runs the same.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 16, 2011, 12:41:42 pm
it ran previous of the issue tho. have you replaced the fuel filter, and cleared all the fuel lines of any restrictions?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 12:57:13 pm
Replaced fuel filter, cracked all the lines ontop of the injectors and there is no air in the lines. One thing I have not tired yet is running diesel from jar to filter to pump though.

Edit: This is the way it's been running since I've had the van and I only have the PO's word on it running out of fuel and starting this issue. I was thinking that the timing might have jumped a tooth, but it still running the same.

I don't know how... but maybe my pump is 180 degrees out from PO? The description I found on a thread somewhere..

"If you were 180 out the engine would run but extremely roughly with a lot of smoke and very little power. "

...is exactly what I am experiencing.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 16, 2011, 01:56:24 pm
Is it definitely diesel in the tank?  Just one more thing to check on...
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 02:06:11 pm
Yep, when I cracked the lines making sure no air was in there it was definitely diesel.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 16, 2011, 02:11:08 pm
Yep, when I cracked the lines making sure no air was in there it was definitely diesel.

that doesnt mean the feed or return line couldnt have a restriction tho.

sounds like a classic clogged feed line to the pump/filter to me..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 02:14:02 pm
I hope so.. I'm going to try and has a bottle of diesel straight to the filter.. Anyone know of a good way to do this.. just to rule out the fuel system?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 16, 2011, 02:16:42 pm
You can get some vinyl tubing at Home Depot and use it to bottle feed - it won't stand up to diesel long term but it'll do fine for what you need here.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 16, 2011, 02:49:42 pm
When you timed it there would have been a mark on the top of the IP pulley that aligns with another mark on the bracket that holds the pump itself.  They should have been close when you had a keeper of some sort in the hole on the right side of the pulley. 

Check that?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 03:00:08 pm
I'm at work now. Going to check that tomorrow, just to rule that out too. Bentley said not to lock the pump if timing jumped a tooth.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 16, 2011, 03:18:10 pm
I'm at work now. Going to check that tomorrow, just to rule that out too. Bentley said not to lock the pump if timing jumped a tooth.

i highly doubt timing jumped just because it ran out of fuel.

usually the only reason the timing jumps, is when the timing belt and tensioner needs replacing VERY BADLY.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 16, 2011, 04:21:37 pm
I think it jumped a tooth. I'm not convinced it running out of fuel messed anything up. The timing  and tensioner are really bad.. and there was a lot of play in the belt between the cam and up before I did anything.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 16, 2011, 04:42:03 pm
I think it jumped a tooth. I'm not convinced it running out of fuel messed anything up. The timing  and tensioner are really bad.. and there was a lot of play in the belt between the cam and up before I did anything.

wont be hard to tell, if you put the pump lock in, and the other marks are off, then it jumped time.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 16, 2011, 07:27:58 pm
Kind of what I was thinking. 

I just take the inlet line off the pump and put on a temporary line from a converted gear lube bottle that i have cut the bottom off of and put a hanger on the back.  That connects to the hood with an S hook and then I add line to the the return line so it just routes around.  Gives me about 20 oz of fuel and time to play with what ever.

Clear lines help with finding leaks on either side of the system. 
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 17, 2011, 01:33:59 am
Great.. First thing tomorrow I'll turn the crank to tdc and check if the IP is out 180. If not, I'll rig up a fuel container/line and try to eliminate any pump/feeder issues.

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 17, 2011, 11:57:25 am
Yeah, NEVER believe the PO. One more time: Never believe the PO. (They always have a reason to lie and often times they are stupid. And/or it is to their advantage to believe what some other lame-o told them was wrong.)

The "smoke" in the video looks like steam to me, with all that that implies. Is there pressure in the cooling system after it runs a bit?

The motor sounds like the timing is WAY off to me. Way advanced. Easy to do on a Vanagon.

You need to bite the bullet and and set the cam and IP timing before you F something up. Without that you are just shooting in the dark.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 17, 2011, 12:01:59 pm
Well, I checked and the IP looked 180 degrees out.. don't ask me how..

So, I moved it 180 degrees and she fired up. Can hold an idle, WAY less smoke, more power. Now I just need to fine tune the IP timing, might still be a tooth or so out.. but running much better.

Here is a picture with the crank at TDC and how the pump sprocket was sitting.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMAG0196.jpg
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 17, 2011, 12:30:22 pm
OP needs a cam and pump lock to really time the thing right..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 17, 2011, 12:40:31 pm
No, it's like 170ish I think.. it sits at 45 degree angle in the Vanagon
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 17, 2011, 01:19:06 pm
Here is how it's running now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSHr9eaiLvM
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: theman53 on November 17, 2011, 04:30:52 pm
What does it look like with the nut off? That is the only way I can tell if it is in time or not. IIRC in time is when the woodruff key is approx. 10 o'clock. EDIT: If it is a vanagon I have no idea where to reference the woodruff key in relation to the rest of it.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 18, 2011, 01:08:21 am
What does it look like with the nut off? That is the only way I can tell if it is in time or not. IIRC in time is when the woodruff key is approx. 10 o'clock.

What in the world are you talking about?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: theman53 on November 18, 2011, 06:10:46 am
reply #42
The IP I cannot tell what is going on in the pic.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 18, 2011, 09:52:50 am
Brillant deduction Watson.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 18, 2011, 11:35:57 am
I have a better idea. How about just telling him to get the tools and set the timing? Then it would probably run fine.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 18, 2011, 11:49:57 am
I have a better idea. How about just telling him to get the tools and set the timing? Then it would probably run fine.

thats what i been saying the WHOLE TIME!!!

how can you set the timing with NO TIMING TOOLS?

i know i need atleast a cam lock to set my timing. and a dial indicator to set it to anything besides by ear..

i use a thin wrench for my cam lock, and a socket for my pump lock.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 18, 2011, 12:18:14 pm
I have a camlock, used a 1' square with a little file to lock it completely. I have a socket for a pump lock, but my pump was no where near the lock when I locked the cam.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 18, 2011, 12:33:18 pm
I have a camlock, used a 1' square with a little file to lock it completely. I have a socket for a pump lock, but my pump was no where near the lock when I locked the cam.

well, then thats your first problem. if your pump lock doesnt fit when the cam lock is in, then the engine IS NOT TIMED RIGHT. not even close..

i think you should start from scratch, timing wise..

like, crank and cam at TDC, and then set the pump to TCD also..

you are just guessing right now, as to where the timing is. im surprised it even runs still, to be totally honest..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 18, 2011, 12:51:18 pm
MAKE SURE the woodruff key in place on the pump shaft, locking the pulley to the shaft!

im sure the key is still there.. its just been timed by someone that obviously has no idea what they are doing..

theres 3 marks that should atleast be really close to lining up.

the flywheel, it should be dead on TDC, and the cam should be locked in place.

the pump sprocket should have the timing mark pointing to the other mark on the pump bracket.

that should get your timing close enough to atleast make it run and adjust the timing..

(thats the reason adjusting the timing did nothing, because it was soo far out that adjusting it did nothing, im sure the fuel wasnt even close to being injected at the right time)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 18, 2011, 12:52:29 pm
MAKE SURE the woodruff key in place on the pump shaft, locking the pulley to the shaft!

another thing, the pump should be the only place in the timing setup that has a key. the cam does not have a key.

i have timed a 1.5D with a keyed cam, and sprocket, and even left the key in there. but it was a 1.5. im not even sure if the newer pieces have keyways..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 18, 2011, 01:12:12 pm
I'm going to head over with my timing tools and give him a hand this afternoon... see what we can sort out!! :)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 18, 2011, 01:13:59 pm
I'm going to head over with my timing tools and give him a hand this afternoon... see what we can sort out!! :)

THANK YOU!!!
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 18, 2011, 01:15:19 pm
Agreed.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 18, 2011, 02:41:43 pm
WE OWE YA!
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Gizmoman on November 18, 2011, 05:29:13 pm
Wow!!!
I've been watching this thread since its inception and a real person is going over to this guys house and assisting with a possible fix.
You guys are amazing!

The world has hope.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 18, 2011, 06:31:52 pm
D'oh.  :-\
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 18, 2011, 09:49:42 pm
yeah, what does that mean?  Did you find a problem, come on fess up.  Or did you pinky swear not to disclose some oh boo, boo-boo. 
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 19, 2011, 12:02:28 am
yeah, what does that mean?  Did you find a problem, come on fess up.  Or did you pinky swear not to disclose some oh boo, boo-boo. 

I am a gentleman.  All will be disclosed in time...
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 19, 2011, 08:57:26 am
yeah, what does that mean?  Did you find a problem, come on fess up.  Or did you pinky swear not to disclose some oh boo, boo-boo. 

I am a gentleman.  All will be disclosed in time...

he broke the timing belt..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 19, 2011, 09:06:24 am
Another broken Cam or pulley this time.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 19, 2011, 09:14:02 am
Another broken Cam or pulley this time.

yea, im not sure. i doubt he broke the timing belt. but im sure something went awry..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 19, 2011, 09:18:20 am
Like any good author he is building suspense for the next chapter in this thread.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 19, 2011, 11:15:23 am
Ha ha.. you guys are hilarious. I made a rushed stupid mistake, so vanbcguy didn't make it out.

After moving the pump a sprocket tooth (I was in a rush to go to work) I cranked without hand cranking first.. big mistake, there was a collision. I bought all my gaskets and stretch bolts and have another head I'm going to put on as long as there is no other damage.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on November 19, 2011, 11:32:00 am
Ha ha.. you guys are hilarious. I made a rushed stupid mistake, so vanbcguy didn't make it out.

After moving the pump a sprocket tooth (I was in a rush to go to work) I cranked without hand cranking first.. bit mistake, there was a collision. I bought all my gaskets and stretch bolts and have another head I'm going to put on as long as there is no other damage.

rookie mistake..

bet you will never do that again..
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 19, 2011, 11:33:58 am
You know, some guys just should not work on their own stuff.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 19, 2011, 11:36:14 am
You know, some guys just should not work on their own stuff.

Exactly the reason I didn't really want to update this post yet.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Luckypabst on November 19, 2011, 12:00:17 pm
You know, some guys just should not work on their own stuff.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tact (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tact)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 19, 2011, 12:23:49 pm
Tact is not the issue here. Skills or lack thereof, are the issue. So much stuff gets turned into junk by kids that jump in without a clue, when a bit of research and  asking some questions is much less likely to result in one more VW diesel getting shreded and loaded on the boat to china. I could see this coming very early on, as I am sure could most of us. He needs guidance, not mollycoddling. Ignorance is curable unlike stupidity. But one will remain ignorant UNLESS one takes measures to educate oneself. I commend Vanbcguy for going over there, but keeping the secret of how he F'ed it up is doing him a disservice. If we hide our mistakes we forgo the chance to learn from them.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 19, 2011, 12:31:09 pm
Telling a kid something that he desperately needs to hear is not being an a'hole. Clearly he needs to stop and re-evaluate how he is doing things or we will see the Vanagen reduced to shredder scrap in even more painful detail.

Steevz,
 If you would like some guidance on this, PM me your phone number. I am available most of the time.

Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 19, 2011, 12:39:41 pm
Toby, you didn't offer any information that would help him learn.  You just rubbed his nose in his mistake.  Are you really that pathetically insecure?  This forum and the people on it would be better served if you never posted again.  They will also be better served if Steevz keeps posting.

Don't hold your breath on that one. If you reread the entire thread you will see that I have been trying to steer him in the right direction, but amid the din, that has gone unnoticed.

AND

Yes, it is his van to break, BUT I personally think he would be much happier if he were driving it than breaking it. How about you?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Luckypabst on November 19, 2011, 02:28:29 pm
Toby,

In most cases, I agree with your opinion and the knowledge you share. However, you have NO tact. I wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out that you have poor people skills... worse even than my own. Mellow out and be friendly in your approach, we aren't in boot camp.

Chris
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 19, 2011, 03:12:15 pm
Yes, this is a learning process for me. I've never tangled with the inners of a head or block..just pulled the entire assembly. I made a big mistake cranking the start rather then turning by hand.. and it crossed my mind before I did it but from lack of time and success doing the same process a few minutes before I skipped it, which I won't be doing again. I have the head off my other engine, going to pull the head off the vanagon shortly and then go from there.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 19, 2011, 04:16:42 pm
Toby,  I have to agree with Luckypabst,  a bit more friendly approach and lighten up would go a long way on this forum.  When I read most of your posts I get this visual image of a shop foreman leaning over the shoulder of the young mechanic chewing his ear off about the work he sees going on.  You win when you provide good guidance, which you do, without the bark.  

I don't like to see metal shredded any more than the next guy, most of all these big parts that seem to be getting messed up.  But it is obvious to me that we have folks here on the thread that don't have the manual, don't have a lot of skills or experience and have the wrong tools for these engines.  But what they do have is the willingness to do something, even if it is wrong.  Hell I would break more than my knuckles when I was in my teens all the time.  When the wrenches hit the floor with the uttering of Gods' name I could just about count on the door opening and seeing my dad walking out.  His first question was generally "So what ya learning now?"  then the followup "How you trying to do it?"  He never said that was a stupid thing or how dumb an idea it was.  He taught me to take a minute to plan not to just rip into it.  And if I got in a hurry I would pay for it somehow later.  

I think Steevz is on a power learning curve, and it is costing him in time, dollars and pride.  Good to fess up on the procedural foopa, locking the IP and getting it in time is just part of that process.  Cranking by hand is in there too.  But you know that, at least now.  So build your experience and keep us informed.  I and others will support you, and if we bark it is out of character.

We eventually want to see that link that shows the van starting and running like a champ.  Good that you got it for cheap, more capital to buy upgrades, or replacement parts.  

And to you VanBCguy, Way to go, an extremely unselfish move on your part.  I have done similar jaunts to friends needing a mechanical hand but as yet have used this forum to hook up and help another.  To you- KUDOS-
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 20, 2011, 05:37:48 pm
vanbcguy came out to help today. Thanks again!

We discovered my other engine had an 11mm head and the 12mm bolt washers for the block don't fit. Going to grind them down at work tomorrow and try and get it all back together.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 20, 2011, 06:40:44 pm
No problem!!

So yeah, his spare head turns out to be an 11mm so a little "modification" will be required to get it to fit.  It appears to be in good shape though, the usual cracks are barely there at all.  Engine looks in good shape too - bores are nice and clean, not much or a ridge or anything.  Had one bad GP in the new head which we swapped while it was all still apart - much easier that way!
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 20, 2011, 10:55:19 pm
The 12mm bolts fit into the head in all the holes except the two corners on the manifold side of the head. Those holes are too small to fit the bolt. If I drill out those 2 holes, can I use the 11mm bolts washers, either doubled up or else cut the 12mm washers off the bolt?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 20, 2011, 11:28:28 pm
How do you plan to get 11mm hardened washers over 12mm bolts? It is much easier/better to just grind the OD of the washers on a bench grinder. You do this by holding the bolt at an angle to the axis of the centerline of the grinder spindle. That way the washers will not just spin, but still turn fast enough to stay round. You have to play around with the angle that you hold the bolts to get everything right, so practice with some old bolts first. When you have the technique down THEN move on to the new bolts. This is kind of hard on soft grinding wheels, but not overly so. You could probably do it with a hand held 41/2" grinder but I expect it will be harder to get a nice job.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 20, 2011, 11:38:49 pm
Sounds good. I did use a round file and ground out the inside of the washers a tiny bit and they all slide right on the 12mm bolts.

Also, for drilling the 2 small holes in the head.. should I use a 29/64" or 15/32" bit, then a 31/64" in a drill press?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 20, 2011, 11:50:02 pm
No. Go right to your finish size and be sure to clamp the head securely. The alloy is soft and has a tendency to screw the drill into the hole instead of cutting when you are taking small cuts and the feed gets too high. Much better to go with a slightly higher speed and very light feeds with some lube. Soluable oil is good, but WD40 works.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 20, 2011, 11:59:32 pm
Alright, well I'll take the head with me to work tomorrow. We got a large standing drill press and all the bits I could need. Thanks.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 21, 2011, 10:17:58 am
Did you see the thread about head bolt hole and block prep?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 21, 2011, 10:33:53 am
Hey Toby, we cleaned the block / head well with brake cleaner and made sure there's no trace of old gasket material or anything else on either surface.  All the block bolt holes have been chased with a used bolt with a slot cut in it until the bolt would bottom out without issue and came out of the holes clean.

A razor blade was necessary to remove some head gasket bits from the head, used extremely carefully so as not to damage the soft aluminum.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 21, 2011, 06:04:04 pm
Head gasket life is also improved by cleaning the block and head surfaces with 200 grit sand paper until everything is shiny.

BTW a razor blade is way too flexible to make a good gasket scraper, except in a pinch. Try a carbide scraper and you will never go back. (I am NOT talking about the Horror Fright carbide paint scrapers.)

Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 22, 2011, 02:38:00 am
Got the holes bored out a bit. Going to install the head tomorrow, and try the beast running again.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 27, 2011, 06:57:19 pm
We have a running engine... :)
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 27, 2011, 07:19:28 pm
Yes we do! Fantastic!

Timing was so retarded.. Alright..

Everything is pretty much good to go.. except the pump has a bit of a hanging idle. Also the max fuel screw was leaking.

So I took the max fuel screw out of the other pump that I have and swapped em. It still has the clip on the end, the other pump has never been modified. Screwed it in and when I tried starting the van it just rev'd like redlining (probably if I had a tach), turned it off right away. Backed the max fuel screw and idle screw both back. Fired it back up, same result.

Ideas?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 27, 2011, 07:40:29 pm
Backed the screw out a whole bunch and shes runnin now.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 27, 2011, 08:56:24 pm
drive it but don't break it.  Report how it runs.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 27, 2011, 11:49:41 pm
Its runs great while driving. Not a powerhouse... but 100x more power then last time I "drove" it. All my exhaust studs snapped while removing the bolts.. inside the exhaust manifold.. I tried drilling them out but even almost whole size the left over bits won't come out.. any way to do this? Drill all the way and tap add bigger studs?

IdeaS?
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 28, 2011, 06:38:56 am
lots of penetrating oil soaking on it, heat the exhaust manifold some with a torch to expand the metal but don't heat the bolt areas.  I have had good luck using easy outs for this problem.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Toby on November 28, 2011, 10:56:06 am
Easy-out suck because if the bolt does not want to come out they will swedge what is left into the hole if you use the size they call for, so you must use and undersized one not to risk making it all but impossible to get out.

If you have the hole drilled to the point where you can see the threads from inside the hole you can usually pick out the remnants of the bolt with a sharp pick. If not, which is likely, because it is quite hard to get the hole in the bolt both concentric and right down the centerline of the bolt for its entire length, you will need to use a tiny diamond point chisel to collapse the remnant of the bolt in on itself. You can then grab the remnant with small needle nose pliers and spin it out. This will bugger the threads a bit, but it cannot be helped. Just clean them up with a DULL tap or a thread chased.

One thing to remember is that candle wax melted into the hot part will often wick itself into the threads and free the remnant of the bolt. I like to follow this with a very sharp, narrow center punch and a small ball peen. Make a small center punch prick at the edge of the broken bolt. Then make it deeper and work the bolt with the punch held tangential to circumference of the bolt to unscrew it. You may have to move 180* around the bolt and take another bite as the bolt may bind in the hole.  If you can find any kind of ridge on the face of the break in the bolt, use that to get a better "purchase" when striking the punch with the hammer. This is delicate work  and usually not very quick, so try not to be ham handed or you will just make it worse.

Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 28, 2011, 11:52:34 am
Oh yeah, its also not smoking anymore.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 28, 2011, 12:16:07 pm
What is the chant?  If you don't have pictures it didn't happen?  Another video of proof please.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 28, 2011, 08:11:28 pm
Definitely shoot some more video!!  :D
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 28, 2011, 08:14:09 pm
Going to run some diesel purge through it tonight when I get home from work. Tomorrow morning ill take video.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: ORCoaster on November 28, 2011, 08:34:49 pm
Oh not that line, I will ____ in the morning.  Going for the fog effect, or the cold start success I guess.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 29, 2011, 01:35:50 am
Lol, no I work from 3pm - 1am. So, it's dark when I get home, no good for taking video.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on November 29, 2011, 10:11:24 am
Easy-out suck because if the bolt does not want to come out they will swedge what is left into the hole if you use the size they call for, so you must use and undersized one not to risk making it all but impossible to get out.

If you have the hole drilled to the point where you can see the threads from inside the hole you can usually pick out the remnants of the bolt with a sharp pick. If not, which is likely, because it is quite hard to get the hole in the bolt both concentric and right down the centerline of the bolt for its entire length, you will need to use a tiny diamond point chisel to collapse the remnant of the bolt in on itself. You can then grab the remnant with small needle nose pliers and spin it out. This will bugger the threads a bit, but it cannot be helped. Just clean them up with a DULL tap or a thread chased.

One thing to remember is that candle wax melted into the hot part will often wick itself into the threads and free the remnant of the bolt. I like to follow this with a very sharp, narrow center punch and a small ball peen. Make a small center punch prick at the edge of the broken bolt. Then make it deeper and work the bolt with the punch held tangential to circumference of the bolt to unscrew it. You may have to move 180* around the bolt and take another bite as the bolt may bind in the hole.  If you can find any kind of ridge on the face of the break in the bolt, use that to get a better "purchase" when striking the punch with the hammer. This is delicate work  and usually not very quick, so try not to be ham handed or you will just make it worse.



What I have done is MIG a lump onto the piece of stud. Enough to grab with vice grips. If there is any protrusion, then MIG a nut on. This extreme heat often loosens the stud  somewhat.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on November 29, 2011, 11:06:48 am
Okay, cold start video of the Vanagon this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NjhyAuIYEU

Didn't do the diesel purge yet. Going to do that now. That's without using the block heater too, which actually functions amazingly.
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: vanbcguy on November 29, 2011, 12:10:04 pm
BTW the god-awful rattle is the mostly-not-attached exhaust system... :)

Glad to see how much cleaner it's running - that looks better than after we got it going for sure. 
Title: Re: New 82 Vanagon Diesel, ran out of fuel.. issues arised.
Post by: steevz on December 02, 2011, 05:51:11 pm
How.. changed the front brake pads and bled the brakes today. Big clonky calipers.. 1 piece, 2 pistons. On the passenger side it had a seized piston and that brake pad was bare metal on metal, the rotor was pooched too.

Got the piston freed up, bled again and now no more grinding. :)