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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: regcheeseman on September 28, 2011, 07:21:44 am
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Well, Now the colder weather is here, I've just about had enough of the smokey old franken. It's got to the point that I'd rather cycle than drive it.
Sure I can advance it, but I lose power and it seems to clack more. Having already dropped to a 2 notch, I see only 2 options.
1- re-fit the 1.6 head
2- modify the cold start advance cam to give more advance
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modify the cold start sounds like a good idea, maybe josh will chime in with how his acts in colder weather. with daves franken jetta he had advanced the timing to 1.15 or 1.20 or so and alleviated the problem and then dynoed nearly 200whp, but he also had a 9mm pump head so i don't think it is comparable, and i don't think u want to go down to the 9mm head either? but like you say perhaps you will be better off with a heavily ported 1.6 head, maybe taper the edges where the valves are recessed in the head to drop compression slightly and gain flow but that is all
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modify the cold start sounds like a good idea, maybe josh will chime in with how his acts in colder weather. with daves franken jetta he had advanced the timing to 1.15 or 1.20 or so and alleviated the problem and then dynoed nearly 200whp, but he also had a 9mm pump head so i don't think it is comparable, and i don't think u want to go down to the 9mm head either? but like you say perhaps you will be better off with a heavily ported 1.6 head, maybe taper the edges where the valves are recessed in the head to drop compression slightly and gain flow but that is all
it doesnt get COLD here..
cold to canuks, and cold to us yankees is 2 different things.. here in oregon, we dont get much below the 20*F mark..
ive only seen single digit temps a few times in my life..
i believe josh told me his timing was right around stock spec.. he is WELL UNDER 1mm static timing.. i think hes running like .83, or something like that.. under .9mm tho for sure..
we may have another hybrid coming to life eventually.. i have an AAZ head that i ned to rebuild, but i havent had the balls to take my engine apart yet. it runs too good.
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my franken started up stock glow plugs and no block heater at -12F last winter. even made heat too. Smoked until you drove it, then no smoke (grey anyways haha).
Maybe you have an injector or bad glow plug. Dont necessarily blame the franken, it's not that extreme a change...
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Slap a Cummins heater grid on the intake and see what happens?
Or draw through a hairdryer for driveway testing.
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Ooh I support the hell out of the heater grid. Just heating the intake with a blow-dryer works.. A grid will be friggan awesome!
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my franken started up stock glow plugs and no block heater at -12F last winter. even made heat too. Smoked until you drove it, then no smoke
Starting it isn't a problem and it'll clear within a few metres of driving.
What I hate is the cloud of white smoke on start up, the ropey idle until it's driven a few hundred metres.
I don't think a heater is the solution - that's just papering over the cracks, I did think about modifying the glow relay to run on after the key is turned.
i believe josh told me his timing was right around stock spec.. he is WELL UNDER 1mm static timing.. i think hes running like .83, or something like that.. under .9mm tho for sure..
I'm just over 0.9, did he suffer smoke.
but he also had a 9mm pump head so i don't think it is comparable, and i don't think u want to go down to the 9mm head either?
Already gone back to the 9mm, the 10 was too noisy for no gain, the 9mm can deliver enough fuel at the moment to paint the street black.
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my franken started up stock glow plugs and no block heater at -12F last winter. even made heat too. Smoked until you drove it, then no smoke
Starting it isn't a problem and it'll clear within a few metres of driving.
What I hate is the cloud of white smoke on start up, the ropey idle until it's driven a few hundred metres.
I don't think a heater is the solution - that's just papering over the cracks, I did think about modifying the glow relay to run on after the key is turned.
i believe josh told me his timing was right around stock spec.. he is WELL UNDER 1mm static timing.. i think hes running like .83, or something like that.. under .9mm tho for sure..
I'm just over 0.9, did he suffer smoke.
but he also had a 9mm pump head so i don't think it is comparable, and i don't think u want to go down to the 9mm head either?
Already gone back to the 9mm, the 10 was too noisy for no gain, the 9mm can deliver enough fuel at the moment to paint the street black.
every start up ive seen was smokeless, and it started just like a stock 1.6, and it idled nice n smooth.
how are your injectors? maybe theres something awry with them?
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I don't think a heater is the solution - that's just papering over the cracks,
Chevy, Doge, Ford, and VW all use it...
or maybe you should skip the glow plugs altogether, as they are just a crutch for weak starters &engines...
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I don't think a heater is the solution - that's just papering over the cracks,
Chevy, Doge, Ford, and VW all use it...
or maybe you should skip the glow plugs altogether, as they are just a crutch for weak starters &engines...
haha good point, the whole reason for a heater of any kind is to speed startup and reduce smoke.....some engines require more help with the "reduce smoke" part.
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Would a simple dipstick heater or engine block heater get it warm enough to keep the gray smoke at bay?
I have an afterglow effect on my engine as I have tapped the original VDO temp gauge onto the gp senor on the flange off the coolant tube. Stays on for like a five count. Then clicks off. Amp gauge drops from 30 draw to plus side of about 3-5.
No smoke on start. Slight smoke at top of RPM range on hard hill pulls.
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Cummins don't run the heater above 60F, but they are probably the easiest starting of all. I don't think the box truck 4BT has any kind of heater, and it always starts.
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Sorry to hear about your concerns of your build. Yes my timing is set static at .86mm. Very low but I'm using the one notch gasket, ported head and yes stock glow plugs and relay. True it does smoke on first start up but once its driven, not even 100 yrds. its smoke free. True, it'll fart and studder on first start. But give it some throttle and get some heat into the engine and its fine. Yes when its cold out, I plug in the block heater and it def. helps on starting, but it'll start just fine with out it. Yes I should have better drag racing times but the turbo is to big at lower RPM's and to small at higher RPM's. Its just finding what you like for the way you drive.
I say plug it in and leave it plugged in before you start it if you can every day. Set the timing when its warmed up to Op. temp and leave it there when your happy with the amount of racket. Yes it'll be smokey and ruff running when cold but how long will it be cold, not long.
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it does smoke on first start up but once its driven, not even 100 yrds. its smoke free. True, it'll fart and studder on first start
Good to get the truth 'straight from the horses mouth' - different story to what others were saying. ::)
That is exactly the same as mine runs and I'm not prepared to live with it - it looks and sounds awful.
I'm on 2 notch but worried that 1 notch may just get the pistons and valves untited - or is there lots of clearance?
The other problem is that step where 1.6 bore meets the 1.9 chamber and the squish is all wrong - that cant help combustion.
I've hopefully got a spare cold advance cam on the way, I'll re-profile that to give a few degrees more advance over stock
I really don't want to go for a block heater its not convenient - besides it doesn't get cold enough here to even warrant pulling the cold advance on a stock motor
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I ran separate wire through the glow plug relay for a button/switch that I can keep the G plugs activated. Usually about 30 more seconds. I felt like the combustion chamber warmed up faster and smoke went away sooner also.
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it does smoke on first start up but once its driven, not even 100 yrds. its smoke free. True, it'll fart and studder on first start
Good to get the truth 'straight from the horses mouth' - different story to what others were saying. ::)
That is exactly the same as mine runs and I'm not prepared to live with it - it looks and sounds awful.
I'm on 2 notch but worried that 1 notch may just get the pistons and valves untited - or is there lots of clearance?
The other problem is that step where 1.6 bore meets the 1.9 chamber and the squish is all wrong - that cant help combustion.
I've hopefully got a spare cold advance cam on the way, I'll re-profile that to give a few degrees more advance over stock
I really don't want to go for a block heater its not convenient - besides it doesn't get cold enough here to even warrant pulling the cold advance on a stock motor
If this wasn't the racing forum, I'd say that the big head on a little body seems like a bodge.
After all I don't think that block heaters were ever an option over here, and us Brits all live so close together, that smoking cars will soon get pulled over by the cops looking for easy work.
A 1.9 head on a 1.6 block drops compression ratio down to 18.5:1; and that's assuming optimum ring compression. Too low for perfect IDI startup I think.
Reg why did you not stick to the GTD pump and just turn up the power. I'm sure some of the Euro chaps have nearly 200HP.
I don't think squish squash quench squelch or whatever, applies to the IDI with a swirl chamber. This was CAD-man's favourite topic, but as far as I know all of the research was done on DI petrol engines, with an off cuff remark that it may apply to similarly constructed diesels.
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Reg why did you not stick to the GTD pump and just turn up the power
Do you mean stick to the GTD head?
Ironically I never had a GTD pump at the time, the AAZ one is just fine.
I'm going to try the cold advance mod and if that doesn't work, I'll port the GTD head and return to that.
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if you aren't using the correct thickness gasket for the deck of your block i would never expect any diesel to start in cold winter weather nevermind a reduced compression 1.9/1.6 engine.
before i blew mine up it worked great in the winter. possibly the best it ever did. Took a couple rotations to start but winterized diesel and maybe a spot of conditioner (cetane booster) in the tank and it was great.
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Reg why did you not stick to the GTD pump and just turn up the power
Do you mean stick to the GTD head?
Ironically I never had a GTD pump at the time, the AAZ one is just fine.
I'm going to try the cold advance mod and if that doesn't work, I'll port the GTD head and return to that.
Holy cwap, I definitely meant the head; and as from your info, the GTD pump seems uprated to the 1.9 size, and therefore plenty of reserve power, yes the pump too. however the AAZ pump should be fine.
Not that you have many straight roads down your way to get any speed up ;D... I must be getting old.
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Not that you have many straight roads down your way to get any speed up
Straight roads? Any retard can drive fast in a straight line ;)
B road blasting is where the fun is!
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B-road blasting ftmfw :)
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Did you use a 1.6 or a 1.9 headgasket? I would think that the 1.9 headgasket would drop your CR a fair bit
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I am thinking of solving this pesky problem once and for all. Exhaust is hot, regardless of weather. I was trying to think of a kind of radiator/interheater to flow a small amount of exhaust gas while the engine is cold and have a choke, either manual or automatic that controls pressure flow. This will necessitate a fully wrapped exhaust to prevent heat from escaping, as well as our modified heat exchanger. A box, modified to work inline with the intake will have to be modified to channel the colder air to be heated by the exhaust heat exchanger. Furthermore, a new type of glow plug is in the works by yours truly with unique properties, and a way to fully heat the combustion chamber regardless of outside temperature. For the time being, a water heater in the lower portion of the block is very useful as the convection of heat rising through the coolant will assist in heating the components above freezing. insulating other portions of the motor from heat will indeed keep cold out as well as heat in, inessence keeping the engine as adiabatic as possible.
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I am thinking of solving this pesky problem once and for all. Exhaust is hot, regardless of weather. I was trying to think of a kind of radiator/interheater to flow a small amount of exhaust gas while the engine is cold and have a choke, either manual or automatic that controls pressure flow. This will necessitate a fully wrapped exhaust to prevent heat from escaping, as well as our modified heat exchanger. A box, modified to work inline with the intake will have to be modified to channel the colder air to be heated by the exhaust heat exchanger. Furthermore, a new type of glow plug is in the works by yours truly with unique properties, and a way to fully heat the combustion chamber regardless of outside temperature. For the time being, a water heater in the lower portion of the block is very useful as the convection of heat rising through the coolant will assist in heating the components above freezing. insulating other portions of the motor from heat will indeed keep cold out as well as heat in, inessence keeping the engine as adiabatic as possible.
Which problem are you curing with your exhaust; the lack of straight roads in SW England, or the big head on a little body curse? ;D
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I think your solution has missed the point a bit.
The most smoke problem only occurs when the motor is stone cold - in which case, so is the exhaust thus no heat returned.
I'm thinking now that upping the break pressure of the injectors might improve burn on the cold motor?????
if you aren't using the correct thickness gasket for the deck of your block i would never expect any diesel to start in cold winter weather nevermind a reduced compression 1.9/1.6 engine.
Eddy, you've missed the point too, for the sake of repeating myself, the motor starts fine, fires straight up, there is no reluctance to start - in fact it starts much better than most. Starting is not the issue.
The clouds of smoke that occur a fraction of a second after starting are the problem - the cold charge cools the (unpowered) glowplugs and the misfire/smoke starts. maybe I could let the plugs run on for a bit after startup?
or the big head on a little body curse?
Damn, do you know me? I was one of the shortest kids in my year but had 'an unfeasibly large head' as a friend quipped recently.
Unfortunately for my wife, this trait has been handed down and my 2 boys were born with massive heads too - one on the 97th percentile, the other on the 98th.
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Override button to manually control the glowing duration, easy peasy fix :) Don't put on a strangled 1.6 head!
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i would try upping the break pressure.. finer atomized fuel burns easier.
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I have a big head as well.. But not out of proportions big. I feel for you.. Lol
I think an afterglow system setup with some of the Bosch Duraterm glowplugs will be the ticket. They are left on for up to 3 minutes in the aaz motors on the coldest of mornings. I once had my manual gp controller fail and leave the plugs on for well over a half hour (Duraterms) and they still to this day (1.5 years ago) start the car just fine.
I commonly leave them on for an extra 30 seconds on these last few cold mornings just to aid in warmup.
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an electronics guy like reg should easily be able to create a oem like solution, this is assuming that leaving the glow plugs on longer fixes the problem.
the smokey starts would not bother me, but understand it can be embarassing.
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Aren't smokey, belching exhaust pipes on our cars our badge of honor? Mine no smoke unless I retard it a bunch. Then it is gag city. But I can't take the smell that thick so I make it run like he would like he wishes his would.
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My stock (fast glow) system does after glow for 5-10 seconds, I have a ford starter solenoid powered by the stock relay so it's easy to hear when the glow go on and off.
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Aren't smokey, belching exhaust pipes on our cars our badge of honor?
I find it very useful to get a white van driver to stop following so damn close by giving him a soot sandwich - a few seconds off boost full throttle ;D
but the clattering and white smoke is not so cool.
i would try upping the break pressure.. finer atomized fuel burns easier.
I should have 155s in - how far do I go?
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Aren't smokey, belching exhaust pipes on our cars our badge of honor?
I find it very useful to get a white van driver to stop following so damn close by giving him a soot sandwich - a few seconds off boost full throttle ;D
but the clattering and white smoke is not so cool.
i would try upping the break pressure.. finer atomized fuel burns easier.
I should have 155s in - how far do I go?
At the risk of annoying more conventionalists, the clatter is not neccessarily from inefficient burning but from a combination of rate of combustion, and timing of that combustion, so experimentally, why not try lowering a set of injectors to say 140 or 130bar.
Keep timing the same for effective slight advancement, of initial burn but a stretching out of the whole burn. Even CAD-man dwelt upon the idea ;D
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Aren't smokey, belching exhaust pipes on our cars our badge of honor? Mine no smoke unless I retard it a bunch. Then it is gag city. But I can't take the smell that thick so I make it run like he would like he wishes his would.
if i lose boost, my car pours a straight stream of charcoal out the pipe.. and has about the power of a n/a..
normally tho, i get ONE PUFF of smoke on start up if its SUPER DUPER cold outside. and it stumbles and chokes for a second, so i burn the plugs for about 10-15 seconds till i can feel the motor smooth out and pop evenly on all 4 cylinders..
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"Keep timing the same for effective slight advancement, of initial burn but a stretching out of the whole burn. Even CAD-man dwelt upon the idea" Mark UK
I think this might be the ticket for a lot of us. As age and wear change the initial design criteria of our engines we modify. Hagar advocated running lower pressure injectors to make it smooth but he also was looking for mileage. Wasn't his theory that one would lose energy of the upstroke if you had it advanced too much? Thus the clack and bang or marbles on the plate sound. The longer burn came from the more solid stream of fuel injected at the lower pressure. Thus less clank and bang.
Love that CAD-man title, He may have stayed longer or left earlier if you used it sooner. LOL.
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I think Hagar initially advocated 155bar, as he kept referring to using the 193's in his TD and setting pressure to maximum stated in the Bentley.
Lower pressures more suceptible to poor spraying etc, but I think Hagar, CAD-man and myself came to the conclusion that there may likely be economy benefits to good condition injectors running lower pressures.
I am running old French 293's set to about 130 bar, and retarded to about 0.7mm. The slight advance idea for Reg, was because of his hybrid issue.
My only attempt at a new matched set of nozzles [old stock 193's ] was thwarted when I broke one, and one was duff, and that left me with 2. So back to the closely adjusted ones previously mentiioned.
Mileage 50[imp] round town and nearly 60 interstate.[motorway].
Close match injectors with pieces of tape measure spring and razor blade 8)
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normally tho, i get ONE PUFF of smoke on start up if its SUPER DUPER cold outside. and it stumbles and chokes for a second, so i burn the plugs for about 10-15 seconds till i can feel the motor smooth out and pop evenly on all 4 cylinders..
Had to laugh at that, Super Duper cold doesn't happen down there ;D. Right now nights get to about 20-25F and in the morning I have to crank it a half second longer and it fires off with slightly less boom.......I'll try to remember to check the tailpipe next time.
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we had some single digit, and low double digit temps a couple years back.. thats COLD to me..
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I've got 135 bar injectors in at the moment, will try a bit more advance and a glow plug mdification.
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For what it's worth, the Mk III cars (where the AAZ was originally found) keep the glows on for a WHILE after startup. If I fire up Jezzie I can usually idle in the driveway for 20-30 seconds, pull out and drive about 8 blocks before I hear the relay click off. I think it's about 2-3 minutes of afterglow. The glowplugs don't seem to mind, the biggest thing you have to worry about is your alt belt!!
She does that much afterglow even when it's fairly warm out (+10C)... Maybe worth throwing a switch on the plugs to see if it helps?
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AT LAST!
It's fully sorted! Now moke white smoke on start up, idles perfect when stone cold, nice and quiet, running on near standard timing.
Could believe that the solution was so simple...
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/P1040529.jpg)
Simply remove the 1.6 block and fit a 1.9 block in it's place - all the original franken parts can stay. ;)
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So how does the full AAZ feel??
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Just in time for all that black ice ;D
Reg, about how many times have you whipped engines in and out? Man-hours?
I bet if you decide to sell you will be able to say "I put in 10 G's worth of work into this" :o, and noone will believe you. We'll give you a testimonial
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So much for the mix and match then. No longer a Franken then is it? Just a Frank, that has been dropped.
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Just for reference, the glow plug system used on the GTD engines is different and keeps the glow plugs on for about 30 secs to 1 minute. If find one and put it on these franken engines it might help.
I can tell when the glow plugs turn off on mine because the load on the alternator suddenly drops massively after a little bit.
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Reg, about how many times have you whipped engines in and out?
well, looking at the state of my engine lifting rope about one time too many.