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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: stugots on May 06, 2011, 07:31:38 pm
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So I followed some links to do the dowel fix on the crank, as this is my 2nd engine and knew the symptoms of the keyway starting to go.
A machinist drilled through the new crankshaft sprocket and I managed to drill the crank nose (was easy with colbalt bits). But my problem is now, foolish me I didn't mark the timing belt or lock it in place, but I do recall not moving the top end of the engine while taking the belt off the crankshaft.
Marked the crankshaft position and installed new sprocket, all was well until I tried to start and it almost did but heard some clanking / not a good noise coming from the engine.
so I guess my question is, is the engine shot? and if the timing was out that much while trying to start does this mean its time for the junk yard?
I am able to find TDC on the flywheel but there does not seem to be any noticable marking on the IP or the camshaft.....
any help be great.
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It might be toast . After doing a crank fix, it's even more important to be 100% sure TDC is where is supposed to be, and then reinstall the timing belt by the proper procedure.
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It might be toast . After doing a crank fix, it's even more important to be 100% sure TDC is where is supposed to be, and then reinstall the timing belt by the proper procedure.
Thanks for the reply.....
when I took the belt off the crankshaft the keyway was in the 6 O'clock postition, reinstalled the new one at 6 but did turn the crankshaft without the belt on it.
I have a bently manual but can't seem to find the proper procedure to do the entire timing over again, its vague, any idea where to find?
thanks.
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Its toasted. I bought a core engine that this happened to, 1 severely bent valve and 8 punched out lifters. It would be a good time to rebuild the head or get a good used/new one. Once you get the head fixed make sure to time it up very accurately, it needs to be accurate.
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I have no experience with an AAZ but if it's like the VW diesel engines I've worked on it shouldn't matter what position you put the sprocket on the crank. It's only function is to drive the belt, not to set the timing with.
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By the sounds of it your saying your not sure exactly how to retime the engine? I may have interperated that wrong but ill post anyways :P
First off, do the easiest thing to do, lock the pump, rotate the pump around till the smallest hole is at about 2:30? ish. youll see the hole behind it that your 7/16" 1/4"drive socket will slide (forcefully) into. What that is doing is locking your pump so you dont have to worry about it
Second make sure your flywheel TCD mark is 100% spot on. 100% spot on
Third make sure you Cam is also in the TDC? location. Best (or the cheapest) way to do this is put a standard 3" door hinge in the slot at the opposite end of the Cam. Now here is where you have to be carfull. You could easily put the cam 180 degrees out of TDC, you want it at the position where the lobes of the CYL. 1 are both pointing outwards, and the lifter has no pressure on it.
Once everything is locked into place carfully place the timing belt back on. I personally put it on the crank first, but that could be wrong in some people opinion. Its nice to have a buddy with you watching the TDC mark on the flywheel to tell you if you move it or not.
Most important thing to do is check the flywheel after you timing belt is on to make sure that you are 100% on TDC. After you have made sure you are 100% correct I like to turn the engine over with a ratchet a few rotations just to make sure. If something is going to bind up its always better to find out that way.
Even though you tried to start it with the timing waaaay out the chances are the engine is still in perfectly fine condition. My crank sprocket has slipped on me 2 times, (I have since upgraded to a TDI sprocket) but both times the valves were just fine.
Once it runs youll know if your valves are dinked or not.
If you already knew all this then forget I posted it, but hopefully it will help someone else :P
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sprocket can only go on one way, I think he is referring to the pulley. Which the case is NEVER TRUST THE PULLEY!!! ;)
and always turn it over by hand first.
1. Put it in time (according to the flywheel. (Have valve cover off to do this so look for obvious damage)
2. Compression check
3. Tear down or run it depending on results.
heed our warnings, slightly bent valves slightly lowering compression numbers WILL BREAK OFF eventually. Probably while going 80mph and it will destroy lots of stuff.
it's that "easy" 8)
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sprocket can only go on one way, I think he is referring to the pulley. Which the case is NEVER TRUST THE PULLEY!!! ;)
and always turn it over by hand first.
1. Put it in time (according to the flywheel. (Have valve cover off to do this so look for obvious damage)
2. Compression check
3. Tear down or run it depending on results.
heed our warnings, slightly bent valves slightly lowering compression numbers WILL BREAK OFF eventually. Probably while going 80mph and it will destroy lots of stuff.
it's that "easy" 8)
Very true, OP, do a leak down test to see if your valves are seating properly after you have it running again to see for sure.
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I am having problems trying to find TDC on the flywheel.
There are two noticable marks not too far apart, in between there is a small slit..what do I use?
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so here is my update.
I got the car to start and it doesn't sound bad at all. but its the injection pump I am thinking the timing is off a bit, as there is alot of white smoke and absolutely no power, feels like its in 5th gear when I am in 1st. I didn't have a dail gauge for the IP and pretty much guessed where the pulley should be.
so is the IP timing off enough to give me no power and hella lot white smoke'
?
Do I need to get a special VW Dial gauge or can I get one at princess auto and make it fit?
Thanks again.
almost happy....
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Your cam and crank timing could be off. Please tell us that it is perfect before starting again. No power and white smoke could be bent valves.
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Your cam and crank timing could be off. Please tell us that it is perfect before starting again. No power and white smoke could be bent valves.
I used the slit on the flywheel for TDC and CYL number one lobs were in the up position on the camshaft, put the belts on and everything was locked up, except the IP. my IP sprocket does not have 4 round holes it has the not so round holes, and can't see how to lock the IP, there seems to be a keyway on the inside of the IP sprocket and a hole behind the spocket at 12 o'clock. not sure if that means anything....
anyway, thanks for the help..I will keep trying.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/iplocked.jpg
(this is what most of the IP sprockets loook like)
but this is what mine looks like .....
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/injection20pump20pulley.gif
as I mentioned there is a keyway and a hole for a drill bit at 12 O'clock and I am unable to fit a nut lock.
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So the cam and lifters all looked ok? The crank rotated by hand without any strange metal-on-metal? The lifters moved up and down correctly while the crank was rotated?
Everything seemed fine when turning the crank by hand.
I guess the only way to find the correct timing for the IP is with a dial gauge eh?
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Looking at the picture of your pulley on the IP it appears that there is a notch of some sort at the 12 o'clock position. And with the three equally spaced bolts that hold it on I can envision somebody taking it off and getting it on a third off. Is there no little nick or notch on the edge of the IP pulley? That is what most of us have and use. It lines up with another notch in the bracket that holds the pump on.
Look all around and run your fingernail along the edge. It may be packed with grease and grime.
Strange setup, You may be able to adjust the other screws on the IP pump after, yes after you determine it is properly timed.
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Looking at the picture of your pulley on the IP it appears that there is a notch of some sort at the 12 o'clock position. And with the three equally spaced bolts that hold it on I can envision somebody taking it off and getting it on a third off. Is there no little nick or notch on the edge of the IP pulley? That is what most of us have and use. It lines up with another notch in the bracket that holds the pump on.
Look all around and run your fingernail along the edge. It may be packed with grease and grime.
Strange setup, You may be able to adjust the other screws on the IP pump after, yes after you determine it is properly timed.
There is a Keyway knotch on the inner part of the sprocket, yes. and the hole to fit a drill bit into is at 12. oclock. I did not remove the sprocket while trying to retime everything. The only way to lock my sprocket would be to have it in the 12 O'clock position. Right now the notch is at 2:30
I didn't lock my IP pump before removal of the belt, so I have to find the starting point for the injection, I eyeballed it and she started, but only with lots of smoke and no power to take off in 1st gear.
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If it starts and smokes, White smoke? then you have to be close. White smoke is a condition of retarded timing I think. So you may just need to fire it up and rotate the pump towards the engine block. Might take a couple of trials. I can only get so much advance or retard on the pump before I have to shut it off, loosen the nuts holding the fuel pipes to the back of the pump head and tighten again. That takes the torque off the system and I can rotate it some more. When the timing is at the point I want it. I go back and loosen/tighten the nuts on the head again. Trying to have no tension to the feed pipes going to the injectors.
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If it starts and smokes, White smoke? then you have to be close. White smoke is a condition of retarded timing I think. So you may just need to fire it up and rotate the pump towards the engine block. Might take a couple of trials. I can only get so much advance or retard on the pump before I have to shut it off, loosen the nuts holding the fuel pipes to the back of the pump head and tighten again. That takes the torque off the system and I can rotate it some more. When the timing is at the point I want it. I go back and loosen/tighten the nuts on the head again. Trying to have no tension to the feed pipes going to the injectors.
Thanks for the reply, when you say "fire it up and rotate the pump"? not sure what you mean.. my old IP use to have a screw to adjust, now for some reason my pump does not have that screw in the back.. if that is what you mean
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If it starts and smokes, White smoke? then you have to be close. White smoke is a condition of retarded timing I think. So you may just need to fire it up and rotate the pump towards the engine block. Might take a couple of trials. I can only get so much advance or retard on the pump before I have to shut it off, loosen the nuts holding the fuel pipes to the back of the pump head and tighten again. That takes the torque off the system and I can rotate it some more. When the timing is at the point I want it. I go back and loosen/tighten the nuts on the head again. Trying to have no tension to the feed pipes going to the injectors.
Thanks for the reply, when you say "fire it up and rotate the pump"? not sure what you mean.. my old IP use to have a screw to adjust, now for some reason my pump does not have that screw in the back.. if that is what you mean
that would be the fuel screw you are talking about, and both pumps have them, they gotta, no way around it..
if it starts, and smokes white, it may be low compression too (bent valves) or retarded timing (from not knowing how/not using the right procedure)
if you get it running, and move the pump towards the engine till it sounds like a gunnysack full of hammers, thats too far, back the pump up a tad bit..
or, with it shut off, draw a pencil line on the pump body and pump bracket so they match up. then move the pump half the width of the pencil line, and tighten it back up. do that until it becomes harder to start, then back it off a half pencil line towards the radiator..
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If it starts and smokes, White smoke? then you have to be close. White smoke is a condition of retarded timing I think. So you may just need to fire it up and rotate the pump towards the engine block. Might take a couple of trials. I can only get so much advance or retard on the pump before I have to shut it off, loosen the nuts holding the fuel pipes to the back of the pump head and tighten again. That takes the torque off the system and I can rotate it some more. When the timing is at the point I want it. I go back and loosen/tighten the nuts on the head again. Trying to have no tension to the feed pipes going to the injectors.
Thanks for the reply, when you say "fire it up and rotate the pump"? not sure what you mean.. my old IP use to have a screw to adjust, now for some reason my pump does not have that screw in the back.. if that is what you mean
that would be the fuel screw you are talking about, and both pumps have them, they gotta, no way around it..
if it starts, and smokes white, it may be low compression too (bent valves) or retarded timing (from not knowing how/not using the right procedure)
if you get it running, and move the pump towards the engine till it sounds like a gunnysack full of hammers, thats too far, back the pump up a tad bit..
or, with it shut off, draw a pencil line on the pump body and pump bracket so they match up. then move the pump half the width of the pencil line, and tighten it back up. do that until it becomes harder to start, then back it off a half pencil line towards the radiator..
would you have a picture of the fuel screw?
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I haven't used one of the two piece sprockets (like what you have - the two pieces are the sprocket part and the hub it bolts to), but my understanding is that w/ the 2-piece sprocket you don't use a dial indicator. You place the crank at TDC, loosen the bolts that attach the sprocket to the hub, install the pin in the sprocket, tighten the bolts, remove the pin, done.
Ok, now I am getting some where.
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I haven't used one of the two piece sprockets (like what you have - the two pieces are the sprocket part and the hub it bolts to), but my understanding is that w/ the 2-piece sprocket you don't use a dial indicator. You place the crank at TDC, loosen the bolts that attach the sprocket to the hub, install the pin in the sprocket, tighten the bolts, remove the pin, done.
I found a great write up, props to Vince.
Vincent Waldon:
If your pump mounting holes aren't elongated then you probably have the 2-piece IP sprocket with 1 central bolt and three smaller ones around the outside?
If not... hmmmmm.... somethings wrong... you gotta have one or the other.
If so, your pump is the later version of the AAZ that is pre-timed... no dial indicator required. You'll see a slot in the top of the pulley where a 6-7mm drill bit will go into a hole in the pump body to set the correct timing.
If you look closely at the big nut in the centre of the pump sprocket you should see the classic yellow paint indicating a calibration adjustment. :) YUP mine is marked with yellow.!!!!
Basically you:
- get everything else locked at TDC
- loosen the small bolts around the outside of the IP sprocket
- gently rotate the big bolt in the centre until the locking drill bit goes into the hole
- tighten down the 3 smaller bolts
Done like dinner!
Guess its just that easy....
********One more question about the flywheel being at proper TDC. after spinning the flywheel a few times I noticed there are 2 notches (rectangular) a few degrees apart and between the notches there is a slit. There are no arrows or zero's or anything else that would tell me that is TDC other than the 3 marks mentioned. Which mark to I use??
Thank you
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Just to update.
My AAZ starts up and no smoke, loads of power and I am a happy camper.
Thank you for all your help.
:)
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Basically you:
- get everything else locked at TDC
- loosen the small bolts around the outside of the IP sprocket
- gently rotate the big bolt in the centre until the locking drill bit goes into the hole
- tighten down the 3 smaller bolts
Done like dinner!
Guess its just that easy....
Here's a photo of the 2-piece sprocket on my IP (taken through the licence plate door of my Vanagon).
No yellow paint, but I guess that's because it's a Giles rebuild, and he didn't repaint it.
I have not had to time this engine yet, but from what you are saying, I wouldn't need a dial gauge, correct? Just rotate the pump until that slot hits a hole for a 6 mm drill bit, and pin it there?
Where is the hole, relative to the numbers on a clock face? eg. 12:00 high?
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x78/witless_joe/IMGP2664.jpg)
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The OP said his was at the high noon position yours is pictured more like 7:00. Why didn't all IP's come like this? Seems like the most idiot proof timing set up ever. No playing around with advance or retard of any sort. Good to hear yours is flying again.