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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Big Daddy Roth on April 30, 2011, 06:13:47 pm
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I did a aaz swap into my syncro passat. I used the G60 flywheel. Are the TDC marks in the same position??
I have knocking at 'mid-throttle' conditions. I either have to be into the pedal or off of it to achieve no knocking. Cruising is annoying.
I have a giles pump set at .92mm (or at least I think it is). It made similar knocking at .80mm and 0.85mm. I suspect it's my injectors. Time for fresh nozzles?
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make sure that the TDC mark is indeed at 0*... some VW wheels were not marked besides like 6* or 8* advanced.. my car made the weird knocking too, until i switched to a diesel flywheel again..
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Tho g60 FW is a known upgrade so its likely not the problem ror. I would think confirming TDC & double checking your cam timing would be the best bet first?
I've been lurking on dubberz & watching your syncro build there btw, looks great.
Juuuust figured out who you are btw... thanks for the merc dual horns!
Reuben
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I did a little looking around the net. My G60 fw has two marks. TDC and 6* BTDC. The dam marks are so small, they're hard to see. I'll check it out and come back.
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DEFINITELY check the marks. g60 may be an upgrade but gasser's don't care much for marking TDC.
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I did a aaz swap into my syncro passat. I used the G60 flywheel. Are the TDC marks in the same position??
I have knocking at 'mid-throttle' conditions. I either have to be into the pedal or off of it to achieve no knocking. Cruising is annoying.
I have a giles pump set at .92mm (or at least I think it is). It made similar knocking at .80mm and 0.85mm. I suspect it's my injectors. Time for fresh nozzles?
knocks at mid throttle, then when you go and shift gears at high RPMS right? i had a digifant flywheel on my diesel, and it did the same thing. thought the timing mark was at TDC, but it wasnt, it was at 6*..
so with the crank at TDC, i had everything else set 6* advanced..
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I actually got to skip this pain... sort of. With a G60 & a vanagon diesel bellhousing there isn't a tming mark anywhere near the TDC mark so we had to make a piston stopper for a GP hole & do the angular average measurement using a TDC tool & mark accordingly.
Would a AAZ even run at 6-8* advance?
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Would a AAZ even run at 6-8* advance?
Yes it can. I`ve been driving like that for a month now.
I rolled it to the correct mark and rolled the pump back a little bit. This fixed my issue. Thanks.
I`ll borrow the tools and time it correctly tomorrow.
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Hmmmm
I measured 0.63mm on the dial before i set it to 0.83mm. I'm almost right back to the marks I made on the gear before I moved it back last night. Back to the knocking too.
It ran so smooth, had a good power band, pulled hard, and didn't smoke bad, last night.
Now I'm confused.
Where can I get my own set of timing tools?
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Hmmmm
I measured 0.63mm on the dial before i set it to 0.83mm. I'm almost right back to the marks I made on the gear before I moved it back last night. Back to the knocking too.
It ran so smooth, had a good power band, pulled hard, and didn't smoke bad, last night.
Now I'm confused.
Where can I get my own set of timing tools?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Tools-Gauge-Injection-/370506845616?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5643edcdb0 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Tools-Gauge-Injection-/370506845616?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5643edcdb0)
Prothe timing tool set, have heard anything bad about it..
Or just the dial indicator
http://cgi.ebay.ca/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Gauge-Tool-Injection-/390309146374?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5ae03cef06 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Gauge-Tool-Injection-/390309146374?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5ae03cef06)
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here's a better question.
what size is the 3359 lock pin? my pump uses the small pin, not the larger dowel lock.
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here's a better question.
what size is the 3359 lock pin? my pump uses the small pin, not the larger dowel lock.
6mm
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I think BDR you are 'mixing up' knocking from cam-crank timing error with pump over advance 'knock' error.
The correct position for the pump depends upon the actual dynamic timing of the pump. This is affected by internal pump pressure, timing advance piston pressure response characteristics and injection pressures.
Forget pump locking pins, and spend the money on a cold beer. I still haven't found out their true purpose [pins that is ;D].
Do get a dial gauge as they help you to alter timing methodically, and record where you are when you are 'happy'
Andrew that is an interesting picture, do you know it's history?
If that was indeed a crank to cam timing issue, what is the state of the other 3 corresponding valves?
With a 'normal' head they should have left impressions in the other pistons shouldn't they?
Studying the photo, the valve head and stem section broke off dropped onto piston head, and proceeded to punch the head several times.
Close inspection makes me wonder if this was a piston to valve issue at all? The reason being that the break on the stem is perpendicular to the force, and not with the sloping break, that I think I'd expect.
If you don't mind I would suggest that this may be a tension failure, from perpetual valve to head hammering as the valve shuts, and so possibly down to a fault in the valve metallurgy, and so a rare and unlucky event.
Here is a picture of my engine's piston to valve clash. For me it has been going on for more than 40000 miles, and is not a timing error but an overzealous hand job head skim. It is worse with the two outer valves,at each end of the head, the exhaust ones, and almost non existent on the inner ones. Note the gentle kissing of the inlet valve demonstrating that I had nowhere to go with the crank-cam timing. Improved but not cured by moving from a 2 hole to a 3 hole gasket. Since rering last August, economy good, and four of last 5 fuel economy checks, over 50mpg [uk]. Still knocking, injectors set to 125bar, and timing 0.7. Pump pressure was at 45psi at 1000rpm...
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9029/imgp9923.jpg) (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/imgp9923.jpg/)
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I ran it on some LubroMoly diesel cleaner this am. Big difference in performance, but similiar knock still remains.
I'm getting a set of injectors together to send to Giles for rebuild.
I'm going to check/adjust timing again this afternoon. Set the pump where it wants to run, and go from there.
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I ran it on some LubroMoly diesel cleaner this am. Big difference in performance, but similiar knock still remains.
I'm getting a set of injectors together to send to Giles for rebuild.
I'm going to check/adjust timing again this afternoon. Set the pump where it wants to run, and go from there.
have you checked that all the bolts are there for your injection pump bracket?
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have you checked that all the bolts are there for your injection pump bracket?
Good call. I'll check those this afternoon.
Maybe it worth mentioning that I have the later almost-tdi style AAZ pump. I mounted it to an earlier bracket that I bored out to fit the hub of the pump.
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have you checked that all the bolts are there for your injection pump bracket?
Good call. I'll check those this afternoon.
Maybe it worth mentioning that I have the later almost-tdi style AAZ pump. I mounted it to an earlier bracket that I bored out to fit the hub of the pump.
doesnt the 2 piece sprocket have a DIFFERENT OFFSET than the standard pulley? i swear i read that somewhere..
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doesnt the 2 piece sprocket have a DIFFERENT OFFSET than the standard pulley? i swear i read that somewhere..
Are you saying it's possible that I have the wrong belt gear on the pump? I also thought i read that somewhere.
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would be pretty hard to time it if you got the wrong sprocket on there.. i think?!
im not positive, but i swear i read that the 2 piece sprocket is different offset from the 1 piece unit.. someone else should confirm/deny that..
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a google search gave me this
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=27624.0;wap2
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a google search gave me this
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=27624.0;wap2
does your pump have elongated mounting holes?
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no, my pulley does. it's one piece.
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I there any other way to find TDC on a aaz?
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I found this: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25013.0
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If you are going to use the dial gauge method, then do it by approaching TDC from two directions. Because:
1) There are a lot of 'stationary' points for the piston at TDC, and
2) bearing slop.
Thus you will get two positions for TDC which you bisect.
A better way is to bisect from either side of TDC using a dropped valve.
Best way to do this; [my invention, but I give it here for you all to use freely and including those who wish to sell it, as my overriding interest is to offer help], is to take an old flat screwdriver, heat the end up just behind the flat area and bend slightly.
Use this to give a repeated constant 'camlobe' by pushing up to bend in screwdriver.
Use as you approach TDC on compression stroke, and remove to turn engine through TDC before reinserting. Go far enough away from TDC to ensure slackness taken up.
Bisect the readings.
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I don't believe my CAM timing is out 6*. I set all of the timing correctly once (w/ diesel fw), and haven't moved it ever. This engine has since had 2 different fw's on it. However, I have never moved the cam. Which is why bad things haven't happened.
I did last night take the VC off and check it. When I have the engine at the fw TDC, the cam is back about 1*. So, if you remember that if I set the pump back to around .6mm (using the fw tdc), it runs fine. So if I consider the fw mark to be ahead by 1* error, the 0.6mm retardation would be a reasonable measurment.
I need to find actual TDC.
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I rolled it to the correct mark and rolled the pump back a little bit. This fixed my issue. Thanks.
I`ll borrow the tools and time it correctly tomorrow.
Have you corrected the *CAM* timing. That picture I posted is not a joke...
no, the picture is NOT a joke, it can happen. and the sad thing is, that was a fairly mild explosion Libby posted up.. ive pulled apart engines with valve heads sticking thru the top of the piston..
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I don't believe my CAM timing is out 6*. I set all of the timing correctly once (w/ diesel fw), and haven't moved it ever. This engine has since had 2 different fw's on it. However, I have never moved the cam. Which is why bad things haven't happened.
I did last night take the VC off and check it. When I have the engine at the fw TDC, the cam is back about 1*. So, if you remember that if I set the pump back to around .6mm (using the fw tdc), it runs fine. So if I consider the fw mark to be ahead by 1* error, the 0.6mm retardation would be a reasonable measurment.
I need to find actual TDC.
You need to move the cam each time you "time" the engine and tention the belt. If you changed FW then that needed done. Unless you have a degree wheel there is no way of knowing how far you are off. More than a tooth of the belt either way makes disaster happen. Crank at TDC, IP locked, cam lock in place is the only real safe mode here. For cam to crank you wouldn't even need the IP locked, but it is good measure to do so.
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I set the pump where it wants to run. LOTS of HP now. This thing is gonna eat VR6's for breakfast.
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I did a timing belt on a late model aaz jetta today (somehow ended up registered in the US... ???)
it had the 2 piece pump pulley and I timed it like you should for the 2 piece and checked it with a dial indicator and it was like 0.85, I set it to 1.00 , and it runs much better. Quiet too, just a note, don't trust that for timing to be spot on without a dial indicator.