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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TDsamurai on November 08, 2010, 09:00:39 pm
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So a diesel mechanic i know swears by these little things, and you will think im crazy and that someone took my money and that very well could be the case but heres the details as i can describe them.
Its an inline cylinder that simply clamps inbetween the crankcase vent and the turbo. Ill explain the advantages and then my limited info on how it works.
-Better fuel economy
-Lower EGTs
-Cleaner oil for longer intervals
-More power
-And a less sticky oil in the intake
As far as im concerned its voodoo and witch craft and it was certainly not cheap. However my EGT's are a bit lower so its already worth it.
As the guy that designed these describes...
It uses electrostatic energy with the oil vapours creating high octane radicals, these radicals also help break down the diesel in the combustion chamber and help with a cleaner burn.
The town of qualicum a local town uses these systems on all their equipment have seen gains of up to 20% fuel economy. And there are machines that have run 22000km before an oil change and the oil stays substantially cleaner.
Ill try and get a picture of the thing soon, but not much to see it has purple end caps on it with and its just a little 3" by 2" cylinder roughly.
Let me know what you guys think or if you have heard of anything like it.
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Weird.
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A picture is worth a thousand words...
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any info on how it is supposed to work, or what it is supposed to do?
-Owen
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A picture is worth a thousand words...
second that
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/LanceDon/samurai34.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/LanceDon/fuelgizmo.jpg)
From my understanding it is either the alloy of the materials used inside it or the structure in which there are mesh layers inside it, or the combination of the two. But the inventors description was that it uses electrostatic electricity to change the oilvapour into a high octane fuel which also reacts as a catalyst to help burn the diesel more efficiently. He said he did alot of experimenting with high octane drag cars and he said this alone eliminated ping some engines. It is also claimed to help burn unburnt hydrocarbons making the emissions drastically cleaner. He said he is going to drop of a CD of some type ill post up more info as i get it. This guy started talkin about quantum physics, so he must know his *** because i dont know what that even is haha.
As far as real world goes, im already a believer. This morning on my way to work, in 3rd gear i could easily see well over 1300 degrees. On the way home from work it didnt seem to be too much difference, however he said it takes about a half hour to charge up. After driving around town tonight i must say its difficult to get over 1200 in 3rd gear, and in 4th gear i can still get quite hot however it doesnt climb nearly as quickly. And as far as power goes its noticeable but i think its more to do with the lower EGT's and im still seating the rings.
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Interesting, I'll be following this for sure. Any more info you can get would be great and be sure to post your fuel mileage differences!
Quantum physics is a little trippy and I won't pretend to understand it, but at least it'll give me something to read.
What I'd most like to know is what fuel exactly is coming out the other end of that purple flange and how it affects the combustion of the diesel
The real question is... how much does it cost?
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Fuel difference will be hard to measure as ive only had it on the road 3 times with the diesel and now i have this thing on it. So down the road i may remove it to see what happens. But he said lower EGT's and i was sold. Unfortunately it was $200. The fuel is basically just a thinner gasier version of the oil vapour and keep in mind this isnt just oil vapour, there is alot of different gases emitted from a crankcase generated by the combustion process. It definately seems to good to be true but, i have lower EGT's so im stoked.
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If it sounds too good to be true, it is. You've been scammed. I only take 100$ to tell you that, half price! ;D
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placebo?
maybe you are riding softer?
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Trapping/slowing the flow of crankcase gasses from the intake to be reburned.. Basically slightly decreasing the fuel thus decreasing the egt..? Or your rings are seating better.. I'm all for nifty innovations, but $200 marvels get me questioning...
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I think we should see more pictures of that exhaust pipe climbing out of the hood
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Yea i know a few certified mechanics that have nothing but good things to say about it, these are mechanics ive known personally before i met the salesman. And from what i can tell so far it works. Im goin to work ill see if there is much difference going up the hill on the highway. I was in 4th yesterday morning goin about 80-90km bouncing off 11-1200*
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someone buy one and break it open.. im with the "snake oil" crowd tho..
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Fingers crossed that a few other guys try it out first ;)
Another question though, it's hard to tell, but is there another line dropping down from your cylinder back into the block? I'm just wondering how much oil you'll actually end up burning with this instead of dropping it back down into the block.
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I would love to have a cooler running engine. Let me know your findings. Not that I have 200 to give to the cause, but maybe something to save for... More stupid gear aquisition syndrome.
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Isn't a "high octane" fuel exactly the wrong thing to introduce into a diesel engine? Octane is a measure of compression-combustion resistance... maybe the wrong term. Is there a 12V connection on this thing, or is the electrostatic charge generated spontaneously? Dissimilar metals, or airflow-induced, something like that maybe... It's certainly interesting, but I want to see results on an engine that's not a fresh rebuild, and so changing physically as you drive it...
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Does the maker have a website with more info?
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No other lines draining to block, and no 12v supply, i believe it runs off disimilar metals and the airflow thing. I dont think a high octane fuel is bad for the engine or opposite of what you want. I understand diesel does not even refer to octane rating, however if im not mistaken you can run diesels on some high octane fuels such as jet fuel. The high octane increases the length or time the fuel can burn for increasing combustion pressures. More pressure more power, more power less fuel consumption for the same amount of work.
And no there is no more info at this current time, he is supposed to come by with a CD this week sometime.
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No other lines draining to block, and no 12v supply, i believe it runs off disimilar metals and the airflow thing. I dont think a high octane fuel is bad for the engine or opposite of what you want. I understand diesel does not even refer to octane rating, however if im not mistaken you can run diesels on some high octane fuels such as jet fuel. The high octane increases the length or time the fuel can burn for increasing combustion pressures. More pressure more power, more power less fuel consumption for the same amount of work.
And no there is no more info at this current time, he is supposed to come by with a CD this week sometime.
I thought longer burn of same fuel, leads to lower peak pressures, and lower peak temperatures. This can be achieved by larger gobbets of fuel in the turbulent chamber. This is achieved by lowering injection pressures, for any given nozzle [generally]. This is a good thing as it leads to higher average pressure, and more work done.
Higher chamber pressures, are when approaching detonation. Detonation is most efficient release of energy. Alas increased heat losses, stresses on engine etc mean that it is not best for piston engines, but more for caloriometers... I am open to correction on this.... ;D
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Barnum was right...
Electrostatics indeed
I've a bunch of power resistors here
And some polarisation magnets that aligne the molecule in the fuel system increasing laminar flow, mass ionisation and releasing free radicals to ensure your chakras are 100% groovy.
::)
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And some polarisation magnets that aligne the molecule in the fuel system increasing laminar flow, mass ionisation and releasing free radicals to ensure your chakras are 100% groovy.
::)
Isn't that similar to how the turbo encabulator works? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVZ8Ko-nss4
(That's not a joke at the OP, I'm curious to see how this gizmo turns out!)
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well im not gonna try and correct anyone and im not going to give anymore information, because i would be just making *** up at this point. All i know is my EGT's still can get excessive but seems to be tamed down a noticeable difference between 1-200 degrees. Once the engine is broken in, i will make a comparison with and without the gizmo in place.
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I'm not doubting that you have seen an effect, but I doubt that it is anyway due to this device.
You'd have thought that with all the millions spent on R&D by fuel companies, oil companies and motor companies that this device and all the other wonder cures would have been implemented in every car built.
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I'm not doubting that you have seen an effect, but I doubt that it is anyway due to this device.
You'd have thought that with all the millions spent on R&D by fuel companies, oil companies and motor companies that this device and all the other wonder cures would have been implemented in every car built.
I think the oil chaps would buy up anything that actually worked, and bury it under Hogwarts ;D
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Isn't that similar to how the turbo encabulator works? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVZ8Ko-nss4
Completely utterly totally awesome.
I think this little doohickey is total BS.
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No other lines draining to block, and no 12v supply, i believe it runs off disimilar metals and the airflow thing. I dont think a high octane fuel is bad for the engine or opposite of what you want. I understand diesel does not even refer to octane rating, however if im not mistaken you can run diesels on some high octane fuels such as jet fuel. The high octane increases the length or time the fuel can burn for increasing combustion pressures. More pressure more power, more power less fuel consumption for the same amount of work.
And no there is no more info at this current time, he is supposed to come by with a CD this week sometime.
jet fuel is very close to diesel.. sootier, and a higher CETANE rating IIRC.. my boss told me all about it once..
i ran it in a couple diesel powered pieces up in alaska. definitely smells different..
(walk out of my shop, take a right, go 20 steps, and theres as much A/V gas and Jet fuel as anyone could want..
i had a 9.9 hp mercury that would plane out a 16ft skiff.. (nobody knew the the carb wasnt correct) me and Jesse built the carb for it. he had jet drills and everything.. even ported the intake when we had it apart, took the rev limiter out.. that engine RIPPED..
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HOGWARTS??????
You mean that place ACTUALLY exists?
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Barnum was right...
Electrostatics indeed
I've a bunch of power resistors here
And some polarisation magnets that aligne the molecule in the fuel system increasing laminar flow, mass ionisation and releasing free radicals to ensure your chakras are 100% groovy.
::)
Well done Reg!
If this "gizmo" turned oil into "high octane fuels" without any energy introduction we wouldn't have oil refineries, just a series of giant gizmos.
Are you guys serious? Do you all have "electric supecharger" fans on your intakes?
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First off its not just oil, its a mixture off all the gases emitted from the crankcase some of which generated by the combustion process. The structure inside would certainly stirr up and disrupt flow, and it is very plausible that it could create a cleaner burn of the vented vapours rather than burning up poorly atomized vapours. Im no genius but the mechanics behind what was explained to me seems quite possible, and when i have heard from a very reputable mechanic that he has seen significant gains and installs them on every vehicle he owns, im going to trust him. Ive noticed an immediate difference in cooler EGT's, and have not seen any further difference since the install indicating that my differences are not likely from breaking in the engine as the engine still isnt even broken in with only 500km on it.
Sometimes people come up with things that work. Its a lengthy process to have a product not only be invented but also proven and modified to come up with the final piece. Even once the final product is made it takes time to get the patent and extremely difficult to write a patent without error inorder for it to pass. Once the product is produced i understand that it can be extremely difficult to get people to purchase a product that most people dont understand. and im going to go out on a limb and say that many of the closed minded individuals mocking the idea of new technology dont understand quantum physics and these individuals probably think they know alot more than they do.
Lets take one for example Mystery, were you not the one who cursed my life because i was questioning venting my crankcase to atmosphere? Did you know that every dodge cummins truck ive seen is vented to atmosphere from the factory? So if you are going to compare a "gizmo" , which nobody here understands at this time, to a oil refinery i take it you understand the process of a refinery down to the molecular level? If this is what you are implying maybe you could fill us in so some of us that dont understand can relate?
Lets try and keep everyones opinions out of this unless they have some fact to contribute i would like to figure out how this thing works dont clutter up the tech.
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HOGWARTS??????
You mean that place ACTUALLY exists?
Well some of the gothic passaging in HP, was filmed in Gloucester Cathedral. GC is only a mile from me. It does have exceedingly big vaults... By some quirk, I was actually baptised there, so technically I suppose, it is my local church... :o
RE the gizmo:
Could it be the cooler temperatures are also associated with less power?
Is it patented?
This idea has been around at least 40 years, so if it worked would not the first company still have the rights?
If it worked it would be successful, and commonplace, wouldn't it?
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Have I understood the application correct? You have a canister with a gauze filter between the crank vent and the inlet? side of turbo.
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it is patented, as he has other gizmos that he asked me not to share on the internet that have not been patented yet. There was a noticeable increase in power, and it is not a gauze filter, it has a series of alloy meshs.
Are you guys done yet? I honestly couldnt care less about harry potter or hogwarts so with all due respect, shut up? maybe?
Thanks in advance
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it is patented, as he has other gizmos that he asked me not to share on the internet that have not been patented yet. There was a noticeable increase in power, and it is not a gauze filter, it has a series of alloy meshs.
Are you guys done yet? I honestly couldnt care less about harry potter or hogwarts so with all due respect, shut up? maybe?
Thanks in advance
Wow sorry, at least part of my question was sensible.
Changing, driving style can also be dramatic too, but then this is the GTD site where more power is everything.
Best check for this item, is to run a particular trip twice, once with and once without, or maybe ten with and ten without, then you'd be sure. How long is it supposed to work for?
Maybe you should change it's name from a furry toy to something more becoming of your Japanese vehicle
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my particular trip is up a consistent grade on the way to work every morning, one morning i was going 80km bouncing of 1200* and after the install i was just under 1100. There is no service life of the device.
I through up the information i could provide in a light hearted attitude to see if anyone had heard of something similar. Im not asking if it works, i have first hand experience that it has made a difference and once my engine is broken in i will make more comparisons. I have support from a few people that have noticed differences aswell. So needless to say im gettin pretty tired of the stupid remarks and being treated as if im a retard. So ill continue this experiment on my own i suppose, as this is pissing me off more than it has accomplished anything.
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id like to jump back to mysterys clever comparison to an oil refinery. And since i highly doubt he will explain how a refinery works, most likely because he doesnt know. I took a little time to research lastnight, and its actually somewhat of a similar comparison. The process of refining oil is to simply heat it and extract the vapours that come off of the crude from different temperatures, so it simply breaks down the oil. So if there is any electrostatic reaction going on in this thing and from the internal structure ive seen it will likely seperate and break down the vapours coming from the crankcase. Obviously engine oil is one of the thicker forms of fossil fuels therefore from my understanding it could be broken down into thinner, or more volatile fuels. Thus the high octane radicals.
If im not mistaken the vapours from a crankcase are not only heated but also mixed with combustion gases that make it past the piston rings, so for all those who think this is some joke of a system it seems that whatever is going on in there could very easily breakdown the oil to a more suitable fuel.
End of discussion, and for those of you who were interested in how this works out, you can thank the users on here who have no relevant knowledge to the system but insist on claiming to know it all. This has been proven to be a wasted effort on my part.
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I would love to have a cooler running engine. Let me know your findings. Not that I have 200 to give to the cause, but maybe something to save for... More stupid gear aquisition syndrome.
Please don't get bent out of shape over a couple comments. I would love to see what you find. I have a hard time staying under 1200 myself....please keep posting it isn't a personal attack on you it is just how most things like this are seen on here. Please keep posting and proving all wrong. Let me know what it is called to as I may want one in the future.
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My question was genuine, it not obvious in the pictures and I would like to understand the application.
Have I understood the application correct? You have a canister with a gauze * filter between the crank vent and the inlet? side of turbo.
Am I correct on the fitment location?
Believe it or not I have a small knowledge of quantum mechanics and more than a basic comprehension of electrostatics. You have seen a drop in EGT, there must be a reason why and I'd like to understand what is happening.
*alloy mesh - holes sizes/ dissimilar materials?
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yes dissimilar materials, and hole sizes are a 1/16th of an inch or less. I never thought to ask for a name and i will not be giving it a name other than a gizmo/ device or whatever i want to refer to it as since it is not my product.
I have givin all the information i know of at this time.
And a part of the reason that this product is not found on all equipment is because of skeptics like most on here who do not understand how it works. This product was proven to increase fuel economy by up to 30% on heavy equipment, that burn on the regular of up to 150 litres an hour. Such equipment are hydraulic run vehicles which generally see consistent loads and RPMS eliminating operating style as a variable.
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And since i highly doubt he will explain how a refinery works, most likely because he doesnt know.
It was my understanding that once crude oil has been fractioned - you cannot re-fraction a low grade into a high grade.
Think of the analogy of separating the wheat from the chaff, once you've taken all the wheat, you cannot go though the chaff and get more wheat.
But I wouldn't know much as I failed chemistry. ;)
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from what i read lastnight, they even have a process in which they can turn diesel into gasoline depending on the supply and demand of the fuels in stock. i think the issue with refractioning a low grade is the amount of additives in the oils today which would most likely cause some complications.
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Samauri, you're getting a little sensitive.
However:
First you claim to know nothing, then you spurt out little odments of profound theory.
Fractional distillation removes the more volatile compounds first.
Doesn't diesel not only ignite under compression easier than petroleum, due to it's lower ignition temperature, but it also contains more energy than petroleum, making it preferable for CI engines?
If I get it right you are using this black box on your vehicle, whilst you are still breaking it in. Surely the fact that you are breaking it in can lead to changes in the efficiency, and temperatures as the rings settle down, and compression improves.
If you are also suggesting that this thing can convert low level energy vapour into a potential 30% improvement in fuel economy, not on a petroleum based vehicle, but on a naturally efficient burning CI engine, then I think you are in error.
By implication, if you have a healthy engine, then with minimal blowby you'll get zero improvement... So it's for crap engines :o
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Im glad to see that everyone here knows more about a product that none of you have heard of until now. I did not claim i new it all im simply putting out the facts or information i have been provided, i could easily be wrong. But seeing how you all know exactly what is in the device and exactly how it works, lets just put it to shame right?
I have invested too much time and energy to share this product and defend its capabilities for you guys to just shoot it down. And because of this wasted effort on my part as mentioned earlier. End of discussion. You guys can continue to guess how it works and assume that it doesnt work, if you insist. Enjoy.
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If advertising didn't work, then people wouldn't get sucked in by "mere puff" would they?
Just answer [to the best of your understanding] any of my previous questions, or especially the last two points. I thought they were quite reasonable, and only what any scientifically educated prospective purchaser would have asked.
You don't have to tell us anything, so why create a thread in the first place? Don't we have a Meyer thread?
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Color me hella skeptical, but I have enough blowby I might stand to gain 20-30 MPG, so...
A catalytic converter sure blows a lot more heat(work) out the back than not having one.
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I think I remember reading back in the days when HHO (or hydrogen) boosters were all the craze that they were virtually ineffective on an IDI diesel versus a DI engine.. The theory behind them was the the HHO helped break down the fuel for better combustion.. Since the HHO was ingested into the engine via the intake and the fuel in an IDI diesel is injected into the pre combustion chamber the two never really got a chance to mingle.. Same theory should apply here..
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Im glad to see that everyone here knows more about a product that none of you have heard of until now. I did not claim i new it all im simply putting out the facts or information i have been provided, i could easily be wrong. But seeing how you all know exactly what is in the device and exactly how it works, lets just put it to shame right?
I have invested too much time and energy to share this product and defend its capabilities for you guys to just shoot it down. And because of this wasted effort on my part as mentioned earlier. End of discussion. You guys can continue to guess how it works and assume that it doesnt work, if you insist. Enjoy.
I fail to see why you post about this thing, using it on an engine that's not broke in to boot, and get so bent out of shape from people asking questions about it/joking about it/mocking it or whatever.
What did you expect, everyone to go order one? As you said so yourself, none of us heard about it until now. So can we try to figure it out? Some people like to know how stuff works and some just buy what someone else figured out. Go cheer up.
PS. If it works nobody can just "shoot it down" without proving that it doesn't work correct? So, prove that it works.
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I think I remember reading back in the days when HHO (or hydrogen) boosters were all the craze that they were virtually ineffective on an IDI diesel versus a DI engine.. The theory behind them was the the HHO helped break down the fuel for better combustion.. Since the HHO was ingested into the engine via the intake and the fuel in an IDI diesel is injected into the pre combustion chamber the two never really got a chance to mingle.. Same theory should apply here..
Maxfax, afaik most of the air gets shoved into the prechamber anyways though so it should have worked just fine......I tried one that I made and it was a total failure. It bubbled and all but didn't make a bit of difference.
I saw an ad on ebay of a guy selling a two jar setup and claimed he used it in a diesel rabbit and got 70mpg, I thought it was funny.
A friend of ours who has a science brain said that there's no way to get better mileage out of HHO since you're using the alt to convert it making it a loss. I think it would be different if you used an HHO tank though.
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Maxfax, afaik most of the air gets shoved into the prechamber anyways though so it should have worked just fine......I tried one that I made and it was a total failure. It bubbled and all but didn't make a bit of difference.
I saw an ad on ebay of a guy selling a two jar setup and claimed he used it in a diesel rabbit and got 70mpg, I thought it was funny.
A friend of ours who has a science brain said that there's no way to get better mileage out of HHO since you're using the alt to convert it making it a loss. I think it would be different if you used an HHO tank though.
I just dug up the article.. I will correct myself.. It is not as effective on an IDI engine versus a DI engine.. Same reasoning as above.. There is a local fellow that has written a few books on fuel economy, and what works, what doesn't.. He built an HHO thingy and used it on a DI diesel on an irrigation pump.. It did indeed make a small improvement in fuel usage, however he had about 75 mason jars bubbling.. And they were powered by a separate power source.. If they had been powered from the same engine I would guess that the improvement would be gone.. Now if a PMA had been involved........
But I digress, I'd love to see some test results on the $200 gizmo..
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I'm certainly no expert when it comes to refining petroleum but the basic refining process is akin to distillation whereas heat and pressure are combined with various chemical additives to turn crude oil into various grades of petrochemicals including but not limited to bunker fuel, heating oil, automotive fuels etc. A tremendous amount of heat is wasted and dangerous substances and waste products are produced during the refining process. Your "gizmo" supposedly does this with very little energy input. Is the inventor of this product being considered for the nobel prize?
Do you have an electric "supercharger?" The type advertised a few years ago purported to increase fuel mileage by %15.
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Gotta say it... first saw those in the late 1960s, sold by Warshawsky/J.C. Whitney as "The Moleculator". The newer ones are prettier, with the anodizing & all, however, so... who knows... ? Consumer Reports tested them & a bunch of other 'gizmos' that claimed miraculous results, but got zippo, zilch, nada for power, fuel economy, or emissions improvements. Hope I'm wrong. Good luck.
J.R.
SoCal
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Samauri, you're getting a little sensitive.
However:
First you claim to know nothing, then you spurt out little odments of profound theory.
Fractional distillation removes the more volatile compounds first.
Doesn't diesel not only ignite under compression easier than petroleum, due to it's lower ignition temperature, but it also contains more energy than petroleum, making it preferable for CI engines?
If I get it right you are using this black box on your vehicle, whilst you are still breaking it in. Surely the fact that you are breaking it in can lead to changes in the efficiency, and temperatures as the rings settle down, and compression improves.
If you are also suggesting that this thing can convert low level energy vapour into a potential 30% improvement in fuel economy, not on a petroleum based vehicle, but on a naturally efficient burning CI engine, then I think you are in error.
By implication, if you have a healthy engine, then with minimal blowby you'll get zero improvement... So it's for crap engines :o
im thinking this is why he is noticing all the improvements.. new engine, still breaking in..
and just like stated.. if you have a super healthy engine, you wont notice a change..
i bet your engine ran cooler EGTs because the rings sealed better, and were not pushing soo much oil vapor into the intake.. engine oil introduced to the intake will make the engine run so hot that it will melt the tips right off the glow plugs..
sorry. im not saying you are wrong or right.. but i bet your improvements are because diesels take soo damn long ti actually break in and seal up good..
i wouldnt notice much of a difference in my diesel.. it doesnt have any blow by until you spool it up.
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JC Whitney is correct. These have been sold for decades and I would bet that not one gallon of fuel has been saved JUST because of this device.
I have a sneaking suspicion that, because of the OPs defensiveness and strangely intimate knowledge of this particular product, that he has a financial reason for posting this.
Follow the money.
If this was true they would be on factory cars. If this was true these same manufacturers would be researching the hell out of this to eek out the fractional gains reported by this item. ALL OF THEM! Toyota primarily. This isnt because they want to save the planet..its because the gubment mandates these lofty goals. They dont WANT to change and make better vehicles...they are forced to other wise they pay big fines. Money.
Now you might say..ok..they are in bed with the oil companies so they will not..BS I say. The name of the game is MPG. This might have been true 30 years ago but with the world oil markets and China's car sales boom the, and fuel prices going up..if you can make your car get one mile per gallon better its an edge. Money
Now why would the OP care SO much that people are not talking positive about this product he says he paid $200 for without ANY hard facts or proven results done in a laboratory. Why would he be so defensive? Money.
Yes..In short..Im saying its a sham product just like all the same before it for the past 50 years. Magnets that align the molecules in your fuel. Silly vanes that break off and fall into your intake. All Crap.
I can just as easily explain any of the OPs claims of improvement without any proof...and they will be just as viable as possible truth.
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JC Whitney is correct. These have been sold for decades and I would bet that not one gallon of fuel has been saved JUST because of this device.
I KNEW this thing sounded familiar...
I have a sneaking suspicion that, because of the OPs defensiveness and strangely intimate knowledge of this particular product, that he has a financial reason for posting this.
My thoughts exactly......
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The my defensive additude is based on being told that it doesnt work when i have seen immediate gains. I would never accept money to try and sell a illigitimate product. Im glad to see your guys are still trying to make up a bunch of *** though keep going though im fascinated. ;D
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We were fascinated too, with hopes of hearing something to substantiate the claims of this device.. Then you started getting defensive... :'( Prove us wrong and give us some solid data to chew on..
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The my defensive additude is based on being told that it doesnt work when i have seen immediate gains. I would never accept money to try and sell a illigitimate product. Im glad to see your guys are still trying to make up a bunch of *** though keep going though im fascinated. ;D
So,
Do you think that based upon what you say/know/think, this device would be able to work, if rings are good, and blowby minimal?
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... explain how a refinery works...
I've got an awesome 40 minute Chrysler Master Tech video called Fuel Basics that explains a lot about fuels in general. I'd love to post it somehow but youtube only allows 15 minutes and I don't have any video editing software, if anyone has a suggestion, I can make it available. It goes through the distillation process, additives, etc. really good stuff.
http://player.vimeo.com/video/16837107 (http://player.vimeo.com/video/16837107)
This is a pretty good graphic and basically the same one they use in the video.
http://static.howstuffworks.com/flash/oil-refining.swf
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http://www.chevron.ca/operations/refining/refineryworks.asp
Google is an amazing thing.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/1802932
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The my defensive additude is based on being told that it doesnt work when i have seen immediate gains. I would never accept money to try and sell a illigitimate product. Im glad to see your guys are still trying to make up a bunch of *** though keep going though im fascinated. ;D
So,
Do you think that based upon what you say/know/think, this device would be able to work, if rings are good, and blowby minimal?
I do not know how it works forsure and ill repeat that again, however i think it is very realistic that it could work. aside from the gains ive noticed personally as yes it could be due to break in, i think it is very possible that it could help atomize the oil into a much more burnable vapour. you do not need blow by to get oil vapour from the crankcase, lobes of the cam stir mist the oil quite a bit. and i think this could be refered to almost a catayst in that it could easily aid in atomization. am i wrong to even think that the thinner the oil the better it can mix with the diesel and the cleaner it will burn? Im not saying im a genius, and other than a few quotes from the engineer im just trying to make sense of this thing as best i can.
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i think it is very possible that it could help atomize the oil into a much more burnable vapour.
No. It isn't.
you do not need blow by to get oil vapour from the crankcase, lobes of the cam stir mist the oil quite a bit.
oh so this device atomises mist now? Isn't mist already atomised then?
Please don't accuse people of making up **** and then come out with gems like these.
If it was possible to make oil into a more burnable vapour by passing it through a screen with no external energy involved then why would we bother with diesel pumps.
I may just get a carbed petrol engine, stick one of these device in the inlet manifold and run it on diesel - do you believe this will work also?
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Lol what an entertaining read!
HOGWARTS??????
You mean that place ACTUALLY exists?
Well some of the gothic passaging in HP, was filmed in Gloucester Cathedral. GC is only a mile from me. It does have exceedingly big vaults... By some quirk, I was actually baptised there, so technically I suppose, it is my local church... :o
Quite a bit was also filmed at Fettis College in Edinburgh - Over the road from me!
(http://www.usscots.com/uploadedImages/article/Fettes%20College.jpg)
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I never once said i wasnt making things up, im trying to explain possibilities of how it works, i was asked how i thought it worked and im explaining it to the best of my abilities. If you have any facts of whether or not a further atomized fuel would not burn cleaner please share. If im not mistaken there are multiple levels of atomization. maybe im using the wrong word.
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I never once said i wasnt making things up, im trying to explain possibilities of how it works, i was asked how i thought it worked and im explaining it to the best of my abilities. If you have any facts of whether or not a further atomized fuel would not burn cleaner please share. If im not mistaken there are multiple levels of atomization. maybe im using the wrong word.
Harry Ricardo, who designed this particular style of IDI clearly stated that the design of the swirl chamber shears droplets and completes the combustion.
IIRC it swirls at 8 times the rpm of the engine. The only downside to the IDI is the extra heat losses to the head, as it is cupped around the fuel. The DI does not shear the fuel so well, so requires finer atomisation, and squirting in many directions, but then gains due to less heat losses to the head.
13-13 that is one beautiful building, but then Edinburgh, is full of them. Down here we take pride in pulling down our best buildings, for dead shopping centres, or patches of gravel :(
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13-13
You don't know how amused that has made me. What about you 13?
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This is off a CD i got today. It has alot of information and if you are still closed minded enough to not even think this thing has a chance at working after reading this i dont know what to tell you.
Engine Catalyst Data
Intro to Tech
Crankcase emissions, commonly referred to as blow-by gases, are extremely toxic. In fact, they are several times more toxic than the exhaust emissions. They are carcinogenic. Few people realize that most large diesel engines simply vent these toxins directly into the atmosphere. Most often, they are vented directly below the operator of the vehicle or equipment. It is difficult to simply recycle these toxins back into the engine on large diesels because they cause a number of maintenance and performance concerns, such as oil contamination, carbon fouling, power loss and excess vibration. These toxic vapors burn as an oil, not as a fuel. They also tend to stick inside the engine necessitating frequent maintenance. Imagine what they do inside our lungs.
Fortunately, oil refining chemists, in their pursuit of better fuels, have discovered a method for literally cracking these oily vapors into a fuel, a high octane, clean burning fuel. The secret relies on the ability of certain metals to react with and decompose oil vapors. Not entirely dissimilar to the function of a car’s catalytic converter. Except, this process involves low temperatures. Once these oil vapors pass into the conditioning chamber of reactive metals, they become modified and no longer coagulate. They also become a burnable, high octane fuel additive.
Recycling these freshly modified high octane vapors, at this point, now becomes something very beneficial. The engine no longer becomes contaminated with sticky, oily emissions allowing the oil to stay cleaner and engine internals to be free of carbon sludge. The performance benefits as a result of the higher octane vapors, is also impressive. The engine will run smoother, quieter and accelerate faster. The increase in torque often provides an improvement in fuel efficiency.
The total volume of crankcase emissions emitted from an engine varies depending on several factors such as engine condition, load conditions, temperatures and even oil condition. On average however, most engines produce from 2 – 10 % of their total exhaust emissions as crankcase blow-by. When this oil vapor is converted into a high octane fuel it is not surprising to see the fuel efficiency improve accordingly.
Exhaust emissions are often reduced significantly as a result of the high octane vapors improving the combustion process. An unadvertised secret in the fuel refining industry is that it takes only a very small percentage of high octane additives to significantly improve the combustion process. Since crankcase emissions cause only harm to the engine and environment, it is only logical to convert them into a high octane fuel additive.
This crankcase vapor conditioning system is not a filter, requires no maintenance and will not wear out, ever. It does not use or emit toxic chemicals and it does not produce heat. The technology is adaptable to all engines from small lawn mowers to locomotives. There are no limits. We have ten years of field experience and have proven this technology on thousands of engines worldwide. Commercial engines have been extensively tested under severe conditions such as in the extreme cold of the prairie winters
to the sweltering jungles of Central America. The steep mountain terrain of British Columbia has also been utilized to test logging trucks, tow trucks, garbage trucks, semis, school buses and delivery trucks under full load, long term operating conditions. The technology is safe, reliable and extremely effective.
Advantages
Installing a catalytic modifying system in the crankcase emissions line to convert blow-by emissions into a high octane fuel additive provides :
-Smoke reduction – 50%
-Exhaust odor reduction - 75%
-Power and acceleration improvement
-Fuel economy 2 – 10%
-Starting improvement, even in the extreme cold
-Sound reduction
-Vibration reduction
-Temperature stabilization – maintains thermostat temp even on long hill climbs
-Oil cleanliness - 50% - 2x longer
-Oil pressure consistency
-Engine internal cleanliness
-Reduced oil consumption, often 25 – 50 %
-EGR cleanliness
-Catalytic converter extended function with less contamination
-Used oil washes off clothing and hands easily
Detailed explanation of functional benefits
Smoke reduction and exhaust odor reduction:
This is a result of the reactive vapours breaking the fuel molecules more completely during combustion reducing the amount of unburned fuel cluster s from escaping out the exhaust.
Power, acceleration and fuel economy improvements:
This is a result of the high octane additive increasing the chemical reactivity of the fuel ultimately improving the rate of combustion to produce a more uniform energy release and subsequent pressure increase.
Starting improvements:
Is a result of the reactivity produced by the modified vapours allowing them to quickly decompose the fuel molecules chemically, rather than the normal process involving heat.
Sound and vibration reduction:
This is a result of the high octane additives controlling the rate of combustion, by decomposing unstable fuel molecules before they self detonate. The smoother, more controlled rate of chemical reactions reduces detonation and energy fluctuations.
Temperature stabilization:
By providing a more uniform combustion rate, more energy is converted into pressure and less is wasted into the engine components and cooling system.
Engine internal cleanliness:
Combustion contaminants that enter the crankcase cavity produce acids, which damage engine components, and carbon based sludge that increases maintenance issues. The water, being strongly bi-polar, is attracted to the crankcase processing system. As well, the carbon contaminants, often carrying a charge, can similarly be attracted to the chemical reactions occurring inside the conditioning system. The elimination of these contaminants has been observed in countless test engines indicating significant potential for providing and maintaining engine cleanliness.
EGR cleanliness and catalytic converter long term maintenance support:
These components are prone to frequent carbon contamination and often require maintenance or replacement as a result. By converting crankcase vapours into high octane, combustion enhancing particles, the increase in decomposition efficiency produces less unburned carbon escaping out into the exhaust. EGR systems and catalytic converters remain cleaner and function longer.
Oil cleanliness and viscosity stabilization:
Oil becomes contaminated mostly by water and carbon escaping from the combustion chamber, past the rings. The piston rings fluctuate considerably more when the fuel detonates. Improved combustion reduces energy fluctuations allowing the rings to seal better ultimately keeping combustion contaminants above the piston. Also, improved combustion reactions produce less free carbon to contaminate the oil. Water, a by-product of hydrogen combustion, when it does escape past the rings, thins the oil ultimately reducing its viscosity and the subsequent oil pressure in the engine. Water, however, is a bipolar molecule and is easily drawn out of the crankcase because of its attraction to the
electro chemical reactions occurring inside the crankcase emissions processing system. It simply enters the device and gets passed into the combustion chamber.
Technical explanation of combustion
Fire is a chemical reaction involving atoms, not molecules. A fuel is comprised of molecules of hydrogen atoms and carbon atoms. In order to burn, the molecule must first decompose into individual atoms. Hydrogen then combines with oxygen to form water. It requires over 35 pounds of air to burn one pound of hydrogen. Carbon bonds with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Most fuels are comprised of approximately 87% carbon and 12% hydrogen because of their saturated molecular structures. If the fuel molecules don’t completely decompose into atoms smoke is often produced, ultimately wasting energy. If all of the fuel was able to completely decompose and burn, exhaust emissions would be non- toxic. Normally, fuel molecules must collide with one another in order to break apart, into individual atoms, before they can burn. This is why warm engines are easier to start and smoke less as a result of the heat energy providing sufficient kinetic energy for molecule breaking collisions.
However, molecules can also be broken apart by using chemical solvents, radicals, rather than heat energy. Octane boosters often work in this manner. The concept is to break apart the fuel molecules into atoms quickly and completely in order to promote smooth, controlled and complete combustion reactions.
It should be noted that all fuels commonly available such as natural gas, propane, gasoline and diesel fuels are all made up of carbon and hydrogen atoms proportionately combined into various sized molecules. The larger the molecular cluster, the more viscous the fuel becomes. Diesel fuel, for example, simply has larger molecular clusters of hydrogen and carbon. It is more difficult to ignite because it requires more energy to shatter the larger, heavier molecule of carbon and hydrogen. Regardless of fuel type, the end result of complete combustion is always water and carbon dioxide. The quantity of energy released is also always the same, per atom. Heavy fuels simply have more per volume, it doesn’t burn any hotter. The type of energy released, however, varies considerably.
Burning a fuel produces heat energy but the manner in which it burns ultimately determines its usefulness as an engine fuel. Briefly consider that the sun’s radiant energy will directly heat solid objects or water but not the air. The radiation energy is not in a wavelength that accelerates oxygen or nitrogen molecules. Similarly, the gases in the combustion chamber absorb only certain wave lengths of the combustion’s energy. The wave lengths that are absorbed ultimately accelerate the nitrogen molecule’s vibration causing expansion. The expansion produces pressure and the engine revolves. Only a percentage of the heat energy is absorbed by the gases, leaving a lot of energy to be lost and absorbed into the engine block and cooling system.
Fuels such as alcohol or high octane aviation fuels produce better performance in an engine, not because they burn hotter, rather, they burn smoother and produce more uniform molecular vibrations. More energy is absorbed and converted into kinetic motion or, pressure. Uniform energy levels provide
a more complete expansion resulting in a greater possibility of converting this energy into pressure. Fuels that detonate easily produce hotter engine components, such as cylinder heads, and provide less power. Aviation manuals review this at great length because of its significance in regards to performance, safety and engine longevity.
Fuels can all be made to burn with similar, ideal, characteristics by controlling their decomposition rate. This, in turn, allows control of the combustion intensity and the potential for producing uniform vibration levels, expansion and conversion into pressure.
Catalyst Technical Description –
The toxic characteristics of crankcase emissions are significant and accounts for the reason to recycle these vapors into the engine’s induction and combustion system. However, since these gases contain oil compounds and unburned carbon they tend to coagulate and stick to engine components. This characteristic also makes successfully filtering them very difficult because excessive restriction to the crankcase ventilation system caused by a contaminated filter produces pressure inside the engine leading to oil leaks, poor oil control and excessive exhaust emissions. Accordingly, most manufacturers simply recycle these emissions into the engine’s induction system raw, unfiltered, undiluted and unmodified. As a result, the engine’s oil becomes contaminated sooner, performance and engine longevity is compromised and exhaust emissions are slightly worse.
In order to deal with the very sensitive characteristics associated with toxic crankcase emissions we developed a specific catalyst system that would not, in any way, be associated with a filter system. There are many types of catalysts used in the oil processing industry that can effectively modify oils and their hydrocarbon vapors. Unlike any known catalyst system we developed ours to safely and effectively process crankcase emissions at any temperature without producing heat or causing any resistance to the flow of the crankcase system. Also, there is no required maintenance or limited service life. The materials comprising the catalytic system are non toxic, non corrosive and completely compatible with the engine, its fluids and operating environment. The materials are not consumed in the electro chemical reactions and they are not contaminated by the crankcase emissions. The system is self generating requiring no heat or electrical support. As well, it will work in any temperature extremes from very cold to very hot.
The modifications elicited to the hydrocarbons involve the deformation of the molecule’s electronic structure resulting in processes commonly known in the oil refining industry as fractioning, isomerization, cyclization and dehydrogenation. Although it has been discovered that many different combinations and arrangements of metals produce some desirable hydrocarbon modifications only select materials in specific arrangements are chosen to process and recycle crankcase emissions. The benefits of catalyzing crankcase emissions with our system include not only the advantages of safely processing these toxic emissions without maintenance or restriction, but the positive effect these modified gases have on the combustion process. When these modified emissions enter the combustion chamber they assist the fuel’s decomposition process. This allows the fuel to not only burn more completely, ultimately reducing hydrocarbon and soot emissions, but allows for a more controlled, smoother combustion process ,which in turn reduces NOX emissions. Smoother, less
intense combustion reactions produce lower levels of NOX forming radiation. As well, when the fuel decomposes and burns more completely starting characteristics are improved and less carbon is produced allowing emissions control equipment to function efficiently without excess contamination. It has also been discovered through extensive long term testing that water contaminants in the crankcase are attracted to the catalytic system and are effectively eliminated in the combustion chamber. The reduction of water in the crankcase system allows the oil viscosity to remain as intended with fresh clean oil. As well, acid formation is reduced.
This catalytic system is easily adaptable to engines by simply splicing it into the crankcase ventilation system. Since there is virtually no restriction to the gases passing through the unit it is simply a matter of choosing an appropriate sized device with the proper fitting size to match the engine’s original hose diameter.
The engineers of every engine type have configured a hose diameter suitable for sufficient crankcase pressure evacuation. We simply match the size of the original hose assembly.
The most significant characteristic of this system, compared to any known crankcase enclosure systems, is that it effectively modifies crankcase emissions without restricting flow, even after long term use. As well, the self generating electrochemical reactions safely produce reactive intermediates with unique combustion enhancing characteristics ultimately enabling engines to produce cleaner emissions longer.
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This is off a CD i got today. It has alot of information and if you are still closed minded enough to not even think this thing has a chance at working after reading this i dont know what to tell you.
Engine Catalyst Data
Intro to Tech
Crankcase emissions, commonly referred to as blow-by gases, are extremely toxic. In fact, they are several times more toxic than the exhaust emissions. They are carcinogenic.
Agreed
Few people realize that most large diesel engines simply vent these toxins directly into the atmosphere. Most often, they are vented directly below the operator of the vehicle or equipment.
Sounds like a stupid thing to do.
It is difficult to simply recycle these toxins back into the engine on large diesels because they cause a number of maintenance and performance concerns, such as oil contamination, carbon fouling, power loss and excess vibration.
These toxic vapors burn as an oil, not as a fuel.
Sorry I thought these engines are oil burning.
They also tend to stick inside the engine necessitating frequent maintenance. Imagine what they do inside our lungs.
Fortunately, oil refining chemists, in their pursuit of better fuels, have discovered a method for literally cracking these oily vapors into a fuel, a high octane, clean burning fuel.
That was the big leap…
The secret relies on the ability of certain metals to react with and decompose oil vapors. Not entirely dissimilar to the function of a car’s catalytic converter. Except, this process involves low temperatures.
Nope this is it; is this a catalyst, or is this item dissolving as I speak, and behaving the same as on old school aluminium chair leg dipped in electrolyte and used to create hydrogen for cars.
Once these oil vapors pass into the conditioning chamber of reactive metals, they become modified and no longer coagulate. They also become a burnable, high octane fuel additive.
Recycling these freshly modified high octane vapors, at this point, now becomes something very beneficial. The engine no longer becomes contaminated with sticky, oily emissions allowing the oil to stay cleaner and engine internals to be free of carbon sludge. The performance benefits as a result of the higher octane vapors, is also impressive.
How do you know it’s because of these vapours?
The engine will run smoother, quieter and accelerate faster. The increase in torque often provides an improvement in fuel efficiency
I’ve just this week improved my mileage by 20% by turning my timing back from 1.05mm to 0.7mm. It also resulted in smoother, more efficient etc etc, as it naturally would do: A local 2 mile grade, that was requiring changes from 5th down to 4th and 3rd for the last 200 yards, can now be cleared in 5th…
The total volume of crankcase emissions emitted from an engine varies depending on several factors such as engine condition, load conditions, temperatures and even oil condition. On average however, most engines produce from 2 – 10 % of their total exhaust emissions as crankcase blow-by. When this oil vapor is converted into a high octane fuel it is not surprising to see the fuel efficiency improve accordingly.
So you are saying that 2 to 10% of emissions are from the crank case? This sounds reasonable.
However it is a big leap to say that it is 2 to 10% of fuel, as opposed to 2 to 10% of the heat and CO2 going out of the exhaust. Remember it is not 30% of the fuel going out of an exhaust, but 30% of the results of burning the fuel, which may contain miniscule amounts of unburnt hydrocarbon, and CO. If it were working then it would be referring to 2 to 10% of the fraction of a %.
Exhaust emissions are often reduced significantly as a result of the high octane vapors improving the combustion process. An unadvertised secret in the fuel refining industry is that it takes only a very small percentage of high octane additives to significantly improve the combustion process.
See "chair leg" above for similar results then.
Since crankcase emissions cause only harm to the engine and environment, it is only logical to convert them into a high octane fuel additive.
This crankcase vapor conditioning system is not a filter, requires no maintenance and will not wear out, ever.
So it is a catalyst ;) can 'they', the CD writers make up their mind? ::)
As our slimy Politicians would say; “I refer my honorable friend to the answer I gave a few moments before”
This whole thing reminds me of a limerick:
“A mathematician named Hall,
Had a hexa-hydronical ball!
The cube of it’s weight x his pecker + 8
Was 4/5ths of 5/8ths of F***all."
I can’t be bothered with the rest of the essay, but I repeat, the engine has to be in need for a general if not major service for this item to work, else no blowby means nothing to convert…
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It's whole operation depends upon
Fortunately, oil refining chemists, in their pursuit of better fuels, have discovered a method for literally cracking these oily vapors into a fuel, a high octane, clean burning fuel.
My father has a saying which is quite apt...
"What absolute cods."
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If you think an engine has to be damaged to have blowby i think you should go read a book or something.
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If you think an engine has to be damaged to have blowby i think you should go read a book or something.
I'm sure you don't mean me, but if you do, then I never mentioned damaged, I mentioned in need of a service. My one engine had 160 thou ring gaps, but is still hopefully going to reach over 60mpg with the$22 re-ring and a completion of the current tuning...
WRT reading a book , alas you have found out my obsession, I love books.
There are books in every room of the house, except the crappowse, and that is only because queues used to form due to ponderers.
I could not justify a 3rd T. Crapper, in a household of 4 ;D.
I do own a large attic that I am turning into a mini library though...
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it says that the "blow by gasses are burned as an oil, not a fuel."
last i checked, i could take the oil from the crank case of my engine, and dump it in my fuel tank.. thats straight oil, but whats it burning as? oil or fuel? whats the difference?
DIESELS BURN OIL! that is their sole function.. burn oil.
im not sold on this little gizmo at all.. i need factual answers. actual improvements..
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I think you should keep running this device for 6 months or so, keep track of your engine and egt temps, fuel mileage, etc and post up the results. We can argue about this device all day, but road testing's the only way we'll know for sure.
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this thing gizmo dont work , snake oil comes to mind ;D :)
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...and with that we've come full circle in this thread, several times.
OP... please consider posting back in 6 months time and let us know what your long-term experience has been.