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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: RustyToy on September 29, 2010, 10:28:12 pm
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If you've followed my previous thread I've recently had to tear into the engine on my 1.6NA Golf. so I've replaced the head gasket and head bolts. Then installed a new timing belt.
I have spent 3 days now checking timing marks,making sure everything was lined up just where it was supposed to be. Set IP timing to .039" over and over again. No kidding. I've double checked my IP timing timing literally 8 times tonight alone. I've double and triple checked that the crank and cam are lined up perfectly so many times i can do it by smell now.
Here's the problem. it won't start! I'm at a loss and not sure which way to go from here. It cranks,it smokes,it won't start! after cranking I'm getting wisps of smoke from the intake runners after cranking and the toilet bowl is overflowing with diesel which almost makes me wonder if the cam is out of whack, but really don't see how it could be. might be?
Throw some ideas at me...none of my own are panning out >:(
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Is the compression and glow plugs ok? have you tried to tow it. I've found sometimes that will work for the initial start up as it get everything moving and cleans out the engine.
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Just so you know, excessive cranking without firing can "wash" the cylinder walls of engine oil and cause damage. My Golf had a nasty tendency not to start at around 600 thousand Kms. A rolling jump start worked as it got the revs up a bit more. Blow by was getting pretty bad, and ended up ringing it switching to synthetic. Problem solved. You might want to try adding that "Engine Restore" and see if it starts? (See http://www.autobarn.net/ch00011.html) (http://www.autobarn.net/ch00011.html)) Worked for me until I tore it down. Used the 8 cylinder can. Another trick you can try is to pour a bit of oil into the intake/exhaust ports with a valve open to cheat compression. Lot of work to do that though. Try towing the car around in 3rd or 4th gear and see if it purges the excess and fires up. If there is that much fuel in the toilet bowl I'd drag it with the fuel wire disconnected (You should be able to just leave the key in but turned off) for a little bit to get the dead fuel out, then reconnect. Check the amount of pressure going through the breather line going to the intake plenum. Shouldn't be very much, but some is ok. If any of the "tricks" above work, likely the rings/cylinders are worn. Not enough compression.
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Actually, the only thing i have not tried was the pull start. It's just too difficult to do by myself. :-[
i had thought about the cylinders washing. thought about it alot actually. if I can get someone over here tomorrow to drag me up and down the abandoned highway in front of my house I will try that.
If that doesn't work I am going with Plan Q
Plan Q is pronounce time of death at 4:18Pm sept 30,2010 :'(
FYI - Plan R is much more exciting and involves a freshly built engine....Likely with a turbo ;)
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Sounds like maybe you've got no glowplug action - or not enuff.
Like 2 or less.
The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
Good luck with it.
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When I started messing with VW and I did a HG I never got it done right away. It always went at least a week to the next weekend. Most all of them I did needed to really bleed the air out. My Jetta when it was an n/a would fire in the garage, but not start. I pulled it 3/4 of a mile and all the sudden it went on its own :D Hopefully you have similar results. Mine was a combination of old rings, starter, and air in the lines.
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Glow plugs are all new,as is the relay.I can't visually verify that they are all working but a test light on each one shows that they are all getting voltage.
In the event that they don't work I did have the block heater plugged in.Trust me on this one, the engine was plenty hot.
I've cranked this thing over so many times trying to verify that the air was bled out that I actually burned up one starter. Toasted it! Stupid mistake,I knew better.
When cranking it over cylinders 1&4 barely pull any air into the intake runners at all. 2&3 are pulling decently but not impressively.
Trust me when I say I don't want to pronounce death on the Golf. I drive 140 miles a day commuting and the benz just doesn't do it for me. It's comfortabe,but it really isn't any fun to drive. Know what I mean?
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I ran the battery dead 3 times on the jetta. I still had to pull it a 3/4 mile.
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Sounds like maybe you've got no glowplug action - or not enuff.
Like 2 or less.
The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
Good luck with it.
with a tractor, i started my TD 81 rabbit. it had an ICE CUBE around the engine. like frozen... and it took maybe 20 yards for it to fire with no glow plugs and VERY low compression. but i used 2nd gear. gotta get that engine turnin pretty fast..
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well, today I finally got somone over to drag me down the road. We won't go into the sortid details of letting a moron pull me down the road with my truck. don't worry though, a couple of weeks and i think the wounds will heal nicely. >:(
Back to the car. drug it about 100 yards down the road with the key off in 2nd gear. turned the key on and after about another 20 feet she was running under her own power. ;D
Billowing clouds of white smoke mixed with a little black smoke. Ran it down the road another 1/4 mile, turned around and headed home. As I was getting close to the drive the engine started revving itself up. Pulled into the drive and the engine started to run away. Turned off the key and she kept running. At a high RPM I might add, with a major cloud of white smoke billowing from the exhaust and from under the hood.
1st gear, foot on brake,drop clutch. Engines off now. Valve cover gasket has spewed oil everywhere. Overflow tank is empty (it was full), pulled the dipstick and I'm now convinced the cylinders washed. When i changed the oil after the HG change it was full. Just full. Now it's reading really damned overfull and smelling of diesel.
So in themorning I'll change the oil again,top off the coolant, and I have a responsible driver coming to drag my ass down the road again. We'll see what happens this time.
Am I on the right track?
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What time was it when you dropped the clutch to kill the engine? That will be TOD. (Time of death) The engine ran its last few revs on engine oil! She's dead, Jim. You might have some fun rebuilding it, but likely the bore is grand canyon now. The block makes for a great coat rack base. What is creepy is that I had to pronounce my old Golf yesterday! Buddy I sold it to got lazy with oil changes and she died a similar death as yours did.
RIP
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The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
I found out my glow plugs were bad after arriving in Canmore in -40 weather a few years back. Even with the block heater, it had to be towed for quite a while before reluctantly firing up. I now have a Yanmar intake air heater that I keep handy for extreme cold trips. Fits nicely between the hose and the stock air cleaner box. I power it through an add on relay circuit (Also John Deere!) permanently wired to a stock rocker switch next to the rear window defogger.
Ya, I make a lot of cold weather trips.
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Depending on milage I think you will be ok. You didn't run it out of oil and coolant so that is great. The only problems I could possibly see is if the rings are toast and your compression is the starting issue/runnaway issue. If they are good and it just took awhile to get the air out then you should be fine :D
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I too think if it didnt run out of oil or coolant it should be fine.. If it spun a high enough rpm to harm anything.. you woulda heard it lol ;). Before firing it up again, try and make two full revolutions with a ratchet on the crank bolt to make sure it spins freely. You will feel the compression stroke, you may need a breaker bar to overcome the compression (unless yours is really toast..)
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Yeah, I had to go into a great lengthy detailed explination to the dumba$$ that was towing me today about how the diesel engine views oil as fuel.
in all honesty, I call him that because he is one. Before I could even get in the car he took off down the road with my Golf securely attached to the back of the truck with a chain. try jumping through the passenger window of a car moving 20mph and trying to prevent it from careening through a state hwy fence and down an embankment. I'm going to have scars from this one.
Anyhow, plans for tomorrow morning are:
1. crank engine over by hand.
2. Plug in block heater to warm up oil.
3. put new valve cover gasket on. The one that was on it was the old one and has been on and off at least 20 times in the past week.
4. change oil.
5.hook to the back of the truck and try again.
Of course, if i feel anything out of the ordinary while cranking by hand there really isn't any point in proceeding to step 2.
I know it's going to smoke like a freight train for a while. There was a LOT of diesel fuel that made its way into the 2.5" exhaust. so much so that it was running out and leaving a puddle on the floor. That's going to leave a cloud worse than my 8-71 on startup!
Once I've done all that, I'll post back and let you all know how it went.
If you have any ideas in the meantime, keep throwing them at me!
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Take the muffler off if you can, its probably full of fuel.
Might as well leave it off if it comes off, for now.
Thats assuming you have a muffler on it.
It seems like it "should" start on its own now - with starter.
If you have to kill (pardon the term) the engine again from runaway - try to hit 2nd or 3rd or 4th instead of 1st. Won't be so abrupt and less likely to break a motor mount.
Not banging on ya - when you get in that position all of a sudden you do what you gotta do - as quick as possible to shut it down.
At least you made it through the window before it was too late.
Sounds like a helluva day, and a helluva helper.
(hurter? / helper? - tomato/tomatoe)
I'da took him for a drive somewhere "special" afterwards - and shot him.
I'd also have the key on in run position, before i let the gears engage, if you tow it again.
If its a Mk1 engine or Mk1 intake/breather set-up, i'd mop out the breather box if it needs it.
Good luck to you man.
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well, engine turned over just fine byhand. Chaged the oil,topped off the coolant and pushed it out of the garage.
Hooked on the chain and away we went! 100 yards down the road we're running.
un hook chain and take off under her own power. 1st,2,nd,3rd,4th. according to the GPS we're running 58 mph. After about 1.5 miles the white smoke is clearing and seeing more black smoke from the tailpipe.
At 3 miles turn around and head back. pulling strong through the gears. that's encouraging! Pass my chase truck and boogy on. Temp guage coming up, smelling a bit of coolant. glance in the mirror reveals a trace of black smoke.
coming into the drive start to notice some smoke coming from under the hood. pull up and park. rollin smoke from the hood.
Pop the hoodand the overflow tank is spraying hot molten lava ( ok, it was just antifreeze ) and oil everywhere. Not coming from the valve cover gasket this time. Before I left out I pulled the tube running from the valve cover to the intake and replaced it with a short piece of hose pointed at the firewall. The firewall is covered in oil. Dipstick reveals i have about 1 quart of oil left in the engine.
Now, I now hearby officially redeclare time of death at 12:58Pm Oct 3,2010.
I'm moving in 2 weeks so the rebuild will have to wait till after I get settled into the new place. Gives me a little bit of time to gather parts and weigh my options. I guess I'll just have to drive the Benz to work for a month or so.
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you have to admire an engine that will run after all that.
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Pop the hoodand the overflow tank is spraying hot molten lava ( ok, it was just antifreeze ) and oil everywhere. Not coming from the valve cover gasket this time. Before I left out I pulled the tube running from the valve cover to the intake and replaced it with a short piece of hose pointed at the firewall. The firewall is covered in oil. Dipstick reveals i have about 1 quart of oil left in the engine.
So you blew a HG, no big deal fix it up with $70. $150 if you have to shave a few thou of the head.
If you still see oil on the dipstick then you have plenty oil in the engine, and it wasn't run dry. Its when you see no oil on the stick do you start to worry. Crosshatch on the stick accounts for like quart and half or something doesn't it? so bottom of the cross, your a 3/4 quart low.. no?
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So you blew a HG, no big deal fix it up with $70. $150 if you have to shave a few thou of the head.
If you still see oil on the dipstick then you have plenty oil in the engine, and it wasn't run dry. Its when you see no oil on the stick do you start to worry. Crosshatch on the stick accounts for like quart and half or something doesn't it? so bottom of the cross, your a 3/4 quart low.. no?
Yeah, um....I jut got finished doing that. Thats what got this thread started. I've got a grand total of about 6.5 miles on a new HG & Timing belt.
The oil is not on the crosshatch. There is about 1/16th inch of oil on the stick. I feel had I driven another 1/4 mile there would be none on the dipstick at all.
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If there is still oil on the stick then you need not worry young gwasshoppah. Oil on the stick means you were a quart and some low, not empty. ;)
seems you need a new hg though if the coolant bottle was bubbling over?? Was it over heating? or just bubbling over?
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It was definitely overheating. That was why I turned around on my test drive. Normal position on my car after nearly 5000 miles for the temp guage is/was just a hair to the left of the warning light. On this particular trip it was pegging when I pulled in the drive.
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Sorry to hear it. I was kinda hoping I was wrong about the TOD... They are a fun rebuild though. And like the other guys with far more VW knowledge than me say, they are tough to thoroughly kill! Personally, if the car is a keeper, I'd probably just find a decent runner at a wrecker and yank the engine/transaxle and swap the works. Much less work.
Cheers!
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I wouldn't be inclined to do the HG again either.
That thing probably needs a full re-ring at bare minimum.
When they just miss the bottom of the dipstick, takes about 2 quarts to get back right.
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Well, I just can't stand it anymore. Saturday mornin I'm gonna tear it back apart. I'm going to order a new HG and some studs. The car was running way too good before the HG went. All I can think is that something didn't quite go according to my grand scheme when it went together. something. no idea what, but sumthin aint right in the cookie jar.
Before you even say it, yes...I need to buy a Bentley manual. I know that, and I will.
But I need some specs before it gets here. Has anybody got (and willing to share) a diagram indicating head bolt torque sequence?
which bolt when kinda thing. Both for loosening as well as tightening. If so, that would be fantastic!
I figure I was putting it off till I got moved in a couple of weeks, thing is though it's gotta be trailered to the new place anyhow. so if I can possible fix it between now and then thats all the better. I'd still rather be driving the Golf than the Benz anyhow.
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do a comp test before you pull it apart. but i would bore it and go see our friend prothe for some cheap pistons.
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I think...this is from memory but I did it enough times I think this is it. The torque sequence for the head.
10 4 2 6 8
7 3 1 5 9
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its an x pattern IIRC
9 3 1 6 8
7 5 2 4 10
but i could be wrong..