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need help with a no start
by
RustyToy
on 29 Sep, 2010 22:28
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If you've followed my previous thread I've recently had to tear into the engine on my 1.6NA Golf. so I've replaced the head gasket and head bolts. Then installed a new timing belt.
I have spent 3 days now checking timing marks,making sure everything was lined up just where it was supposed to be. Set IP timing to .039" over and over again. No kidding. I've double checked my IP timing timing literally 8 times tonight alone. I've double and triple checked that the crank and cam are lined up perfectly so many times i can do it by smell now.
Here's the problem. it won't start! I'm at a loss and not sure which way to go from here. It cranks,it smokes,it won't start! after cranking I'm getting wisps of smoke from the intake runners after cranking and the toilet bowl is overflowing with diesel which almost makes me wonder if the cam is out of whack, but really don't see how it could be. might be?
Throw some ideas at me...none of my own are panning out
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#1
by
motomike33y
on 30 Sep, 2010 05:13
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Is the compression and glow plugs ok? have you tried to tow it. I've found sometimes that will work for the initial start up as it get everything moving and cleans out the engine.
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#2
by
Turftech
on 30 Sep, 2010 15:48
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Just so you know, excessive cranking without firing can "wash" the cylinder walls of engine oil and cause damage. My Golf had a nasty tendency not to start at around 600 thousand Kms. A rolling jump start worked as it got the revs up a bit more. Blow by was getting pretty bad, and ended up ringing it switching to synthetic. Problem solved. You might want to try adding that "Engine Restore" and see if it starts? (See
http://www.autobarn.net/ch00011.html) Worked for me until I tore it down. Used the 8 cylinder can. Another trick you can try is to pour a bit of oil into the intake/exhaust ports with a valve open to cheat compression. Lot of work to do that though. Try towing the car around in 3rd or 4th gear and see if it purges the excess and fires up. If there is that much fuel in the toilet bowl I'd drag it with the fuel wire disconnected (You should be able to just leave the key in but turned off) for a little bit to get the dead fuel out, then reconnect. Check the amount of pressure going through the breather line going to the intake plenum. Shouldn't be very much, but some is ok. If any of the "tricks" above work, likely the rings/cylinders are worn. Not enough compression.
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#3
by
RustyToy
on 30 Sep, 2010 18:47
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Actually, the only thing i have not tried was the pull start. It's just too difficult to do by myself.
i had thought about the cylinders washing. thought about it alot actually. if I can get someone over here tomorrow to drag me up and down the abandoned highway in front of my house I will try that.
If that doesn't work I am going with Plan Q
Plan Q is pronounce time of death at 4:18Pm sept 30,2010
FYI - Plan R is much more exciting and involves a freshly built engine....Likely with a turbo
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#4
by
Baron VonZeppelin
on 30 Sep, 2010 21:59
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Sounds like maybe you've got no glowplug action - or not enuff.
Like 2 or less.
The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
Good luck with it.
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#5
by
theman53
on 01 Oct, 2010 05:17
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When I started messing with VW and I did a HG I never got it done right away. It always went at least a week to the next weekend. Most all of them I did needed to really bleed the air out. My Jetta when it was an n/a would fire in the garage, but not start. I pulled it 3/4 of a mile and all the sudden it went on its own
Hopefully you have similar results. Mine was a combination of old rings, starter, and air in the lines.
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#6
by
RustyToy
on 01 Oct, 2010 06:10
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Glow plugs are all new,as is the relay.I can't visually verify that they are all working but a test light on each one shows that they are all getting voltage.
In the event that they don't work I did have the block heater plugged in.Trust me on this one, the engine was plenty hot.
I've cranked this thing over so many times trying to verify that the air was bled out that I actually burned up one starter. Toasted it! Stupid mistake,I knew better.
When cranking it over cylinders 1&4 barely pull any air into the intake runners at all. 2&3 are pulling decently but not impressively.
Trust me when I say I don't want to pronounce death on the Golf. I drive 140 miles a day commuting and the benz just doesn't do it for me. It's comfortabe,but it really isn't any fun to drive. Know what I mean?
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#7
by
theman53
on 01 Oct, 2010 07:01
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I ran the battery dead 3 times on the jetta. I still had to pull it a 3/4 mile.
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#8
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 01 Oct, 2010 10:44
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Sounds like maybe you've got no glowplug action - or not enuff.
Like 2 or less.
The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
Good luck with it.
with a tractor, i started my TD 81 rabbit. it had an ICE CUBE around the engine. like frozen... and it took maybe 20 yards for it to fire with no glow plugs and VERY low compression. but i used 2nd gear. gotta get that engine turnin pretty fast..
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#9
by
RustyToy
on 02 Oct, 2010 14:46
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well, today I finally got somone over to drag me down the road. We won't go into the sortid details of letting a moron pull me down the road with my truck. don't worry though, a couple of weeks and i think the wounds will heal nicely.
Back to the car. drug it about 100 yards down the road with the key off in 2nd gear. turned the key on and after about another 20 feet she was running under her own power.
Billowing clouds of white smoke mixed with a little black smoke. Ran it down the road another 1/4 mile, turned around and headed home. As I was getting close to the drive the engine started revving itself up. Pulled into the drive and the engine started to run away. Turned off the key and she kept running. At a high RPM I might add, with a major cloud of white smoke billowing from the exhaust and from under the hood.
1st gear, foot on brake,drop clutch. Engines off now. Valve cover gasket has spewed oil everywhere. Overflow tank is empty (it was full), pulled the dipstick and I'm now convinced the cylinders washed. When i changed the oil after the HG change it was full. Just full. Now it's reading really damned overfull and smelling of diesel.
So in themorning I'll change the oil again,top off the coolant, and I have a responsible driver coming to drag my ass down the road again. We'll see what happens this time.
Am I on the right track?
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#10
by
Turftech
on 02 Oct, 2010 17:22
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What time was it when you dropped the clutch to kill the engine? That will be TOD. (Time of death) The engine ran its last few revs on engine oil! She's dead, Jim. You might have some fun rebuilding it, but likely the bore is grand canyon now. The block makes for a great coat rack base. What is creepy is that I had to pronounce my old Golf yesterday! Buddy I sold it to got lazy with oil changes and she died a similar death as yours did.
RIP
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#11
by
Turftech
on 02 Oct, 2010 18:34
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The pull start will over-ride need for glowplugs after about a quarter mile or so. Depending how cold out, might take closer to a mile.
I found out my glow plugs were bad after arriving in Canmore in -40 weather a few years back. Even with the block heater, it had to be towed for quite a while before reluctantly firing up. I now have a Yanmar intake air heater that I keep handy for extreme cold trips. Fits nicely between the hose and the stock air cleaner box. I power it through an add on relay circuit (Also John Deere!) permanently wired to a stock rocker switch next to the rear window defogger.
Ya, I make a lot of cold weather trips.
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#12
by
theman53
on 02 Oct, 2010 18:47
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Depending on milage I think you will be ok. You didn't run it out of oil and coolant so that is great. The only problems I could possibly see is if the rings are toast and your compression is the starting issue/runnaway issue. If they are good and it just took awhile to get the air out then you should be fine
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#13
by
8v-of-fury
on 02 Oct, 2010 20:00
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I too think if it didnt run out of oil or coolant it should be fine.. If it spun a high enough rpm to harm anything.. you woulda heard it lol
. Before firing it up again, try and make two full revolutions with a ratchet on the crank bolt to make sure it spins freely. You will feel the compression stroke, you may need a breaker bar to overcome the compression (unless yours is really toast..)
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#14
by
RustyToy
on 02 Oct, 2010 21:09
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Yeah, I had to go into a great lengthy detailed explination to the dumba$$ that was towing me today about how the diesel engine views oil as fuel.
in all honesty, I call him that because he is one. Before I could even get in the car he took off down the road with my Golf securely attached to the back of the truck with a chain. try jumping through the passenger window of a car moving 20mph and trying to prevent it from careening through a state hwy fence and down an embankment. I'm going to have scars from this one.
Anyhow, plans for tomorrow morning are:
1. crank engine over by hand.
2. Plug in block heater to warm up oil.
3. put new valve cover gasket on. The one that was on it was the old one and has been on and off at least 20 times in the past week.
4. change oil.
5.hook to the back of the truck and try again.
Of course, if i feel anything out of the ordinary while cranking by hand there really isn't any point in proceeding to step 2.
I know it's going to smoke like a freight train for a while. There was a LOT of diesel fuel that made its way into the 2.5" exhaust. so much so that it was running out and leaving a puddle on the floor. That's going to leave a cloud worse than my 8-71 on startup!
Once I've done all that, I'll post back and let you all know how it went.
If you have any ideas in the meantime, keep throwing them at me!