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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: phantom59 on December 20, 2009, 04:34:05 pm
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Ok I am looking into replacing the injectors on my 81 rabbit. It has a rough idel, lack of power and poor mileage (36mpg) all of which from what I have read can be caused by faulty injectors. The car has 92,000 miles on it but it was parked in a garage for 20 years. The only thing I don't understand is when I cold start the car and pull the timing advance it does nothing. The cable is connected and rotating the shaft on the back of the pump. On my 90 Jetta when I pull this the idel speed raises and it smothes out.
Now I guess my concern is that there is more to this situation than I understand and I don't want to waist the money on new injectors if this isn't going to fix the problem.
Also are these junk http://www.dieselvw.com/16NAInjector.htm (http://www.dieselvw.com/16NAInjector.htm) ? I haven't done any buisness with this guy and I an sure someone here has. I know you get what you payfor but $80 to $100 each for rebuilt injectors is a lot of money
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Your 90 Jetta had idle speed boost (started in 86), and you 81 doesn't, so your rack advance is probably working just fine.
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So does it sound like replacing the injectors will solve the problem?
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How does it run cold, knob in and/or out?
If the timing is right, compression is good, fuel isn't full of air, there isn't much else but injectors.
The mileage is low though, unless there are deposits from sitting with fuel in them for a long time.
There are some pretty tuff chemical cleaners(diesel purge) that might do it, didn't help this
last rabbit I bought, but it has a lot of miles on it.
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Idel is rough with knob in or out but worse when cold. I haven't checked the timing marks but the belt was replaced by a mechanic from the former owner when it was pulled from storage with an oil leak. Am wondering if it could be a notch off?
Don't have a diesel compression tester so not sure but unless it has stuck rings from sitting 92k shouldn't hurt it.
It has a clear filter canister and no bubbles before the pump.
I will check into the Diesel Purge and try it if I can find it.
I am very disaponted in the mechanic I normaly use. My uncle had the car checked as a Christmas present and they replaced the glow plugs and convinced him that the car was running great. Even thought it takes 3/4 pedal to cruise 60 mph in 5th gear and you will loose speed going over an overpass. It was normal to have to downshift to climb a moderate hill since this is a small weak little engine.
This after uncle has owned VW diesels of some kind since the late 70s
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One other thing the mechanic said was the excessive smoke when cold started was injectors leaking by but they would work fine once warmed up.
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One other thing the mechanic said was the excessive smoke when cold started was injectors leaking by but they would work fine once warmed up.
It's possible for that to be true-ish, but it's bad thinking in my opinion.
I think you'd do well to stick a set of injectors in it. And double
check the timing.
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Thanks for the input I have goten more information from this thread than the previous ones.
Now back to one of my original questions has anyone here purchased a set of these http://www.dieselvw.com/16NAInjector.htm (http://www.dieselvw.com/16NAInjector.htm) ??
There is a big diffrence between $100 a set and $90 each from NAPA.
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Search on here for Prothe, apparently his stuff is hit or miss. If I was being thrifty I'd buy a set and try to get somebody to pop test them, or build a tester. I'm of the opinion that it don't take a lot to machine a device like an injector well on even twenty year old machinery, which is probly older than what they are using in China or wherever his are made. The only question is if they are set to the right breaking pressure. Another thought is to by new nozzles for yours and have them set up locally at a diesel shop.
Injectors are sort of a can of worms, I bought a brand new set from Bosch recently and still wish I'd checked them for spray pattern and release pressure. There are better deals online for Bosch stuff than what Napa is charging also.
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Thanks
Any place in mind to check for a good price on Bosch Injectors? When I search I get a lot of crap not related to VW.
As for testing I read somewhere that I would need 300psi to pop test them. I don't have a way to generate that presure.
On the simple side everything you have said tells me to replace the injectors but do you think there could be any chance it could be a notch off on timing and causing this (just hoping for the free fix)?
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https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=ltfpk445om0s2f55hvs3sgqi&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1285455@RABBIT (https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=ltfpk445om0s2f55hvs3sgqi&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1285455@RABBIT) L &year=1984&cid=22@Fuel %26 Air System&gid=6100@Diesel Injector
There are also heat sheilds that need changed every time you take an injector out...buy extras. This page is for my old 84, but should be the same. The main site is https://www.autohausaz.com/index.html (https://www.autohausaz.com/index.html)
There are many vendors out there. Myke_W is a mod here and has a site of parts located here. http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~mw105397/dubdoctor/parts_site/idiparts.html (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~mw105397/dubdoctor/parts_site/idiparts.html)
But he doesn't have everything you need for a VW, but who does :D. Also, the vendors section has a bunch of people that are in business doing this stuff. Giles does pumps, but now stocks alot of parts for maintaining our VWs, but he is in Canada.
Yes it could be your timing as to why it is rough. Pump timing that is not timing belt timing. I think if you are off a tooth on the IP without changing the pump timing I doubt it would start and run...I don't know that for sure though. My 81 I thought was off and when I finally had it checked it was fine. That was when I wasn't on this site and it was my first diesel VW. Turned out it was idling way too slow, turned the idle up and it was fine. Bottom line is find out if the IP is set somewhere between .95 and 1.05mm and go from there.
On Prothe, my personal feelings on this are mine and take it for what you want... I wouldn't buy a critical engine part from him. Headlight, door handle, engine mount maybe. Something that could wreck the engine if it failed like a timing belt or tensioner no. Why...becuase I seem to have found I am not lucky and it always ends up cheaper for me to do it right the first time then try to save money by testing my luck with cheap parts and doing it again later. A headlight won't break me if it fails on the road or anywhere for that matter, but if I have to do an engine I am hurting.
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Thanks I will check out the sites you sugested for the injectors. I am the same way on critical engine parts and a few dollars for what I feel is a better part not made in Mexico or China is worth it.
I don't think the IP timing is off unless they can do this on thier own because I don't believe they messed with it.
Also I have the Bently manuals for the car also a bunch of other VW related stuff that came with the car.
If the knob doesn't smothe out the idel when cold what is it doing and how can I tell if it is doing anything?
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Called a local Diesel service and they will test the injectors for free if I bring them it and Approx. $50 to $60 each to rebuild
Looked at Autohaus and they have rebuilt Bosch injectors for $42 less core charge. That is cheaper than I can have them done locally. Have you had good luck with his products?
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Do a compression test. It is the cheapest way to tell you something definitive. My 87 sat for probably 9 years before running again. The piston rings were stuck in tar in the ring lands probably from the extended no run period. It ran rough, hot and used oil. I only knew the condition after I pulled it apart. The cash to rebuild it was money well spent.
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Mine doesn't run rough and doesn't use oil or run hot.
Is it safe to run Seafoam in the oil with this diesel engine to clean it out?
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Ok I am looking into replacing the injectors on my 81 rabbit. It has a rough idel, lack of power and poor mileage (36mpg) all of which from what I have read can be caused by faulty injectors. The car has 92,000 miles on it but it was parked in a garage for 20 years.
20 years is a long time to expect anything to be viable. Plan on attacking all of the fuel system - separator, filters, pump, injectors. Then think about the engine mechanicals as they don't have an indefinite shelf life either depending on how the engine was put into storage. All the seals and rubber pieces will be hard, age cracked and ready to leak after a bit of use. Just drive it until something develops but replace the timing belt and idler NOW before you even turn it over again. If it is +20 years it will fail imminently leaving you with a wrecked top end and an even higher renewal cost.
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Not forever on running seafoam, but a little bit won't hurt.
I have had great success with autohaus.
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That was fun!!
Just when I thought removing the injectors was the fun part I had to get the heat sink out of that hole.
I hope I didn't hurt anything but I had to use an impact to remove the injectors and a slide hammer to get the heat sink from 3 of the holes. Can I use the impact to put the injectors back in if I am carefull? If not how tight should they be?
I am going to take them in tomorrow to have them tested would it be worth the extra money to have the local shop do the rebuild?
As for bringing it out of storage that was done by the person I bought it from and he took it to a shop for all the necessary work to make it ready to drive, Timing belt, oil leak, brakes, struts, belts and hoses and I am sure other stuff
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in a word on the injectors + impact
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do NOT use an impact to install them. If I remember correctly you torque them to 51 ft/lbs AND you push the torque wrench toward the head you DO NOT pull the wrench toward you. There is very little material in front of the injector and many a head is RIP because of this...I myself did it to one long ago :'(
The heat sheilds are commonly a bear to get out. I wouldn't worry too much unless the bottom of the holes are scarred up. The heat sheilds do a great job sealing normally.
Just clean everything well and look at it. While the injectors are out it would be good to test compression.
If the person you bought it from took it out of storage and someone did the timing belt amoung other things I would start there. Not every timing belt has 100% perfect tolerances, and the injection pump locking pin isn't perfect either. I would contact that person who did it and see what it was timed to or if he timed it at all. I have had about a 50/50 shot on timing belt replacement and not needed to touch the IP timing and with these engines timing is almost everything.
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Andrew posted while I was posting. I would always revert to his #s over mine.
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If I can add my 2 cents, you really do not know who or how experenced the person was how changed the timing belt, the first step would be to check the timeing complete, pump and camshaft like the book details,once you know that is right then work with the injectors , getting them tested. careful not to break the head while removeing them.
just to throw this out there, has the air filter and intake pipe been checked? and muffer checked for being pluged after sitting for 20 years?
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Thanks for the information I will let you know what I find out tonight about the injectors and if they do need rebuilt I will let the local shop do it. Less hastle with ordering and if there is a problem they are here. As for damaging the head I don't believe anything bad happened I was very gentle with the impact and the threads look good.
You mentioned the fact that you have to reset the pump timing after a belt change I will bet that didn't happen.
I am guessing that there is a special compression tester for a diesel and none of my normal ones will work?
I am not sure about the intake pipe but the muffler is new.
One thing if there is a hole in the end of these injectors it must be small because I don't see anything but a flat surface.
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Get a bentley manual and have the pump timing set. The injectors don't really have a big hole, very tiny.
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I have the manual just not the tools. Never been a diesel mechanic before but with the lack of compent ones around here I guess I am about to become one.
I just couldn't justify buying a bunch of special tools to work on one car it was easier to let someone else do it.
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http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=771 (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=771)
The point of driving these cars for ME is they are cheap. They are great cars, but need worked on and I have found eventhough I am not a VW diesel mechanic sometimes caring about your car is better than knowledge. I know I care more than the guy getting 12.00/hour that tells me he can't do that take it to VW. Bonus is once you make these tools they are yours.
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I agree about the knowledge I used to be that way about my old Cadillacs. But some times it is hard to convince wife when it comes to tools since I spent several hundred dollars on a Snap ON code reader a colple years ago and it has lived on the shelf in the garage ever since.
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The tools ae very basic , a bolt, shaft or tap to set the pump gear. a flat plate of steel and feeler gauges for the cam and a dial indicator and magnetic base to set the satic pump cam timeing or lift the dial guage is about $30.00 from Pricess Auto in Canada or your discount place in the States ( do not know where you are). By the way if you post that some other forum member may come out and give you a hand , thats what its all about, right. At least I would.
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I agree most of the time I pay someone to fix anything I end up redoing it so I just do it myself.
I am located in southern Indiana about 20 miles East of Evansville.
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Well bad news
All the injectors checked out good so back to the drawing board. I guess I will run a compression test while I have them out I just need to find a Diesel compression tester.
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Well to me the injectors were the easiest fix. So while I have them out I am going to run a compression test then if that turns out ok I will move on to the pump. I know you said to allways replace the heat shields and it also says this in the book but the person at the rebuild shop who is Bosh certified said I could just clean them up and reuse them.
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That is a scary thing to hear from the guy testing your injectors. The heat shield is a big ole crush washer basically, when you torque them in with a wrench to spec with new one's, you'll feel them crush. Re-use is a bad idea, they are about a buck each, order a dozen and be done for a long time.
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I wonder if I can get them localy I was hoping to put them back in tomorrow after I put my Harbor Freight compression tester to work?
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the person at the rebuild shop who is Bosh certified said I could just clean them up and reuse them.
Oh dear. Did he tell what pressures your injectors actually popped at?
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He said something about 1800
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He said something about 1800
Hopefully he said 1885 psi or 130 bar.
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I just remember he said they were fine at spec and something about 1800 and I ask about the spray pattern and he said it was good
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It's just very rare for someone with Bosch training not to know that the heat shields crush when you use them and can't be used again without the risk of compression leaks etc.... kinda called into question the whole shop.
Plus brand new Bosch-recommended heat shields are only a buck a piece... ;)
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It is hard to believe these are going to crush they seem to be made of steel
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If you look at new ones you will see a knife edge where the injector seats against.
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I will call around to see if I can get them tomorrow.
Someone mentioned usung a magnetic dial indicator is this in place of the one that screws into the pump?
I guess if the compression is good I will be learning how to time the pump.
Should there be a noticable diffrence when the knob on the dash is pulled cold or hot?
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Should there be a noticable diffrence when the knob on the dash is pulled cold or hot?
If it's the original pump then no, no noticeable difference. It advances the timing about 0.30mm IIRC. There is usually a different tone in the engine and it should run smoother when cold.
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It is hard to believe these are going to crush they seem to be made of steel
Yup... but you're seeing them in their "already crushed once" state.
We're all obsessing over this only because it's details like this that can make you chase your tail for days sorting out running issues. ;-)
In terms of using a magnetic base I suppose it could be made to work but the trick will be to find a surface flat enough and big enough.. .the base needs a continuous flat section wide enough to bridge between the two internal poles of the magnet to provide enough clamping force... ie it won't stick to a bolt, nut, etc. Lots of the metal in the same area is aluminum so won't work either.
An alternative might be to rent the correct tool from your local diesel shop... or simply have him do it.
IMHO this is one place you want to be really picky about...setting the timing is a 1/1000 of an inch task... get it wrong and you'll never know if you've found the root cause of your issues. It's also critical to set correctly in terms of power, fuel economy, and cold weather starting.
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After I check the timing I may have the mechanic check the punp timing seeing as he is more familliar with it and has the tools. Also I called to ask a question about diesel compression gauges and told him that the car was still running like sh^%$. He wanted the car back. I guess to finish what he didn't check. I told him I allready had it appart and I would get back to him.
I understand that not many people are familliar with these cars and what they run like. I know rough idle(diesel duh) lack of power (48 hp) but the truth factor is loosing 10 mpg (problem).
Sure your old Chevy doesn't run like a new camaro bot when it is getting 8mpg instead of 15mpg there is a problem.
Enough said I will get back after I run the compression check.
Thanks
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If you remove the vacume pump a magnetic base dial ind. clamps down very sound. I inserted a brass welding rod into the removeable tip of the guage to reach the hole in the pump and it worked very well, there is a pic posted here somewhere of how it looks.
I follow the KISS, way of thinking, KEEP IT SIMPLE , the cheapest and easyist thing to do is check the timeing,cam and pump, it is easy to get it wrong by some one who does not care what they are doing. ie. 36 to 45 mpg it runs that is good enought for them, becuase it runs
If the pump advance works up to 2000 rpm ( from what i read) so sould not effect fuel mileage, if it is stuckin advance then good starting and on problem after 2000 rpm , if stuck in nomal postion then not so good starting when cold and is where it is to be when warmed up, still not a big deal , sould not effect fuel mileage 9 mpg.
CHECK THE CAM AND PUMP TIMEING.
PS. do not over tighten the timeing belt or you wear the pump bushing out.FYI.
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Anyone ever use the Harbor Freight compression tester?
The adaptor has a sleve and two copper seal washers. Do I use one washer above the sleve and one in the head or will the steel sleve seat in the injector port?
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Ok I tried the tester both ways and got the same readings.
#1-400psi
#2-450psi
#3-400psi
#4-400psi
This doesn't sound good to me. After I did 4 & 3 I thought ok Chinese gauge but then I did 2 and got a much higher reading and figured that there is a problem. Most likely stuck rings or the cylinder walls rusted from sitting so long and they are scored.
Hope someone here can tell me something I don't know PLEASE.
With this head design there is no way to scope the cylinders and see what they look like.
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I've seen much lower. You'll be fine. Have you checked your valve lash lately?
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I have only checked what we have discused here. You think 400 is ok it is barley above minium in the manual.
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I am going to oil it and try one more time then put it back together. Wife picked up the new heat shields local NAPA store had 4 in stock. I told him to hide them for me and I would be there.
Next I will go for the IP timing. Should I pull the cover and confirm belt timing first?
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Your compression results are great.
Agreed...compression is not your issue. ;)
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Ok it lives again and no leaks ;D
Now on to the pump ::)
I will try to post some pictures of the car.