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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: truckinwagen on September 27, 2009, 07:30:15 pm
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as some of ypu might already know, I have been tying with the idea of supercharging and eventually twincharging my 1.6 diesel.
I found and bought a G60 supercharger to rebuild. as they are readily available, are remarkably efficient(make lots of boost for the HP draw), and are reasonably sized for their output. but I recently got poor and rebuild parts for them have gotten fairly expensive, so I have decided to sell the G60 to someone who can afford to rebuild it and buy a supercharger that does not need to be rebuilt as often.
I have my eyes on eaton superchargers of the M62 and M90 persuasion.
these both have a re-circulator that would be easy to set to allow boost only on throttle(and to allow a turbo to blow through it when twincharged)
according to the eaton website with the bypass open they only take 1/3 HP to spin at 6000 RPM
they do however apparently take 30HP(M62) and 45HP(M90) to produce 10 PSI of boost.
my question is, do you think the motor would be able to spin the supercharger and be able to make more power than without it.
I like the eaton because it would be easy to twincharge and would allow for cruising with little drag on the motor(good highway mileage) my only question is wether or not the motor will be able to make power with one.
-Owen
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WOAH!!! 45 horse to make ten psi? EFF THAT! anyone interrested in an M90? the volvo penta charger i got up in alaska only takes around 25 horsepower to make 15 psi at 12,500 blower rpm. i dont think the 1.6 crank nose will withstand transmitting that kinda power to a supercharger yo.
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those numbers might be a bit off for our motors as the eatons are designed for much larger motors(the M62 and M90 anyway) and flow LOTS more than our motors could ever ingest, I would be under-driving the eaton to keep the boost levels reasonable.
I think an M45 would be perfect, as they are designed for a 1.6L(Mini) and take substantially less HP to produse boost on, but they are less available and more expensive than the M90 or M62
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according to the performance maps, the M45 takes 25 HP to produce 12PSI, so I will keep my eyes open for one of them.
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yea, im thinkin the eaton M90 i got would be better suited for my 2.0 TD.
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Not to rain on your parade, but why would you super charge ? You want boost in the 10 - 12 psi range? Why? Emissions reduction or more HP ? If so, why eat most of the HP you gain from the charged intake just to produce the boost ? I don't get it. If you turbo-charge, you get that 25 hp FREE as it was waste energy going out the muffler. The turbos easily make 12 psi and more without a single lost HP through the crank. Yes, a super charger sounds cool and has no lag, but many turbo's also meet these features.
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the idea is to twin charge eventually.
the eaton setup will be remarkably simple and much cheaper than getting a turbo setup running.
the supercharger is only for the low end grunt, the top end will eventually be taken over by a rather large turbo.(t3 super 60 hopefully)
the turbo does not give you "Free" Horsepower, it introduces a fairly large restriction to the exhaust, costing power pushing the exhaust out of the cylinder.
this also allows the motor to soak up lots of heat, hence the need for piston squirters and oil coolers.
and lastly, I want to supercharge a diesel because I have already turbocharged one and want to try something different.
-Owen
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I like the eaton (M90 and M62) because they have a bypass that would allow the turbo to blow through them while they freewheel that could be setup very easily.
the M45 does not have this, so it would need to be fabricated or would end up compounding the boost all the time.
the G60 has no bypass and even vented to the atmosphere takes a fair amount of HP to turn because it compresses air inside the casing before releasing it into the outlet. the eaton whereas does no compressing inside itself and takes very little to spin vented.
my idea was to rig up the bypass to only produce boost on throttle and only until the turbo spools, that way I could get the low end grunt I want(I really don't want too much more than 10PSI really low for my bottom ends sake)
and be able to spool a REALLY big turbo that would give less backpressure than a turbo sized for the engine all by itself.
-Owen
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the turbo does not give you "Free" Horsepower, it introduces a fairly large restriction to the exhaust, costing power pushing the exhaust out of the cylinder.
this also allows the motor to soak up lots of heat, hence the need for piston squirters and oil coolers.
Yeah, "free" was not the best choice of words. There is some "pumping losses" due to the back pressure, but it is an order of magnitude less than a super charger cost you to get the same PSI in your charge. I'll bet your blown engine with have the same heat issues a turbo'ed engine sees.
The only real test would be the BSFC (amount of HP per amount of fuel) for either. I have seen on my car - an NA engine with stock NA IP, with the turbo, Lots and lots of power, when the turbo got loose and stopped boosting, serious loss of power.
But, if you are doing just because its not the beaten path, great !!! We look forward to seeing it :-D
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The real nice thing about superchargin it would be the sweet intake and exhaust you could use. The g 60 intake plus a set of headers would make yer blown diesel sound bad ass!!! Plus with that setup boost would be even across all cylinders...increasing efficiency.
correct me if i am wrong but would a super charger give more compression braking to these diesels for driving in mountains and such? also if blower was running constantly at say 20 psi wouldn't egt problems be a thing of the past (as long as max fueling coincides with max boost in a nice way).
What tranny would you use to deal with all that low end?
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the supercharger would add to the compression braking abilities of the diesel, as it takes HP to turn it.
I will be trying to figure out how to boost only on throttle though to try to keep efficincy up.
EGT should not be too much of a problem without a turbo as it wont be introducing a restriction to the exhaust, but as I said, I plan on slapping a turbo on top anyway.
as for the transmission, I have a few 020's lying around, so I will see how long one will last!
-Owen
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the question with that is, how much does a VNT cost to buy and install?
I would love to run VNT, but the rear motor mount on my MK2 looks like it would be difficult to pull off.
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the control is the main reason I dont want to go VNT, it would be much easier to bolt on the supercharger and figire out the bypass control than to do the VNT
also the price of an eaton is much less than that of a VNT, or I can rebuild the G60 I already have for the price of a VNT.
if I can fiind an M45 soon I will probably go that route, until then I think I will bolt on the G60 for proof on concept(unless someone has bought it from me before then)
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I am aware of that.
part of this project is to use the parts I have lying around.
I am kinda trying to sell the G60, but part of me just wants to use it to cut down on the hassle of shipping it and getting another supercharger/turbocharger.
I may build the motor and mount the G60 to see how well it works before I invest the big $$ in rebuilding the G60 just to make sure it works OK.
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integrated manifold VNTs dont work on mk2s. trust me, i tried. it doesnt work. :'(
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ok, let me rephrase it then. short of building a custom engine mount, you can not get a VNT to fit on a Mk2.
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On this very site (in the TDI section) i made this post:
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq352/ryan-pak/SNV81305.jpg)
This is a GT1749VA turbo, clears the mk2/3 mounts perfectly! It's for sale BTW!
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I just opened up the G60 and found out that it has been rebuilt very recently(probably less than 1000 miles ago)
Score!
I m going to keep and use the G60 now that I dont have to spend $400 on rebuild parts.
I think I will make a bypass for idle and when the turbo spools, but I think I will use a throttle body that opens the boost piping post supercharger to the boost piping pre supercharger.
that way at idle the boost will recirculate through the supercharger, there will be some load form the internal compressing of the supercharger, but not too much(a few HP at most)
and when the turbo starts to boost the throttle body will open(by an internal wastegate can) and allow the turbo to blow past the supercharger.
it will be similar to the VNT controllers with a cable from the throttle and a WG can actuating the bypass valve(throttle body)
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should be happening fairly soon.
the only thing I am unsure of is whether I can get the throttle body to seal well enough to hold boost post supercharger.
throttle bodies are designed to "leak" when closed to allow idle, I know I can block off the idle bypass, but I don't know if I can get a good seal with the butterfly in the body.
I need a valve that I can control with a cable(from the throttle) and with boost(I was thinking of using a boost can)
the throttle body seems like a good idea, but if I cant get it to seal properly does anyone have any other ideas about what I could use?
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hmm, maybe something like the stock recirc system that they came with? they work fine.
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if I was going to use an eaton that would be great, but as I stated a few posts ago, the G60 has already been rebuilt and I am going to use it.
as the G60 has no recirculation system I need to come up with something to act like the eaton's.
I could simply put a one way valve in so that the turbo would be able to bypass the supercharger once it is pushing more boost, but that would not cut the boost at idle.
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G60's do have a recirculation system, they are external and mounted on the throttle body. They do work pretty well.
Brendan
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yea, thats what i was talking about, the G60's have a recirc system right before the throttle body. its that big pipe that runs from the t-body back to the intake of the G lader.
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the problem with the G60 recirc is that it is part of the throttle body, and when the recirc is open the throttle body is closed.
I just want to keep from boosting at idle, I dont want to close off the intake at the same time.
One might be modified to remove the throttle plate and keep the bypass, but I would need to find a G60 throttle body.
and I would still need to figure out a bypass for the turbo, but I am thinking that a pool check valve might do the trick nicely.
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looks like the of the local guys has a G60 throttle body, so I will see if I can modify it to work.
next is to figure out how to get the throttle cable attached(might have use the Gasser valve cover)
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Coming a bit late in this topic, but here goes my $ 0.02: for a 1.6 diesel engine you could use a SC as little as the Eaton M24, which would run nicely and fit better in any corner under the hood.
As said before, the horsepower needed to run your SC is directly proportional to the amout of air your engine will be consuming. For instance: if your engine is breathing 26L by second (1.6L @ 2000rpm) and your SC is pushing 52L by second, you would have almost 1kg/cm2 of pressure (considering no thermal losses). The same thing in a 1.9L engine would be like 0.6kg/cm2 (no thermal losses again).
It is the same amount of air, but at different pressures. And in the two cases, the same SC would be consuming different HP. IOW: to really know how much HP would be needed, you should check the compressor map for your SC, and make some approximations from the data available.
Cheers,
Leonardo
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yeah, the little 1.6 does not consume much air.
I have decided to use the G60 as I just found out that it has been rebuilt recently and I have it in my grubby little hands already.
it is also sized appropriately(to give 11PSI to a 1.8L) so I dont need to worry about getting something too big.
I found a G60 throttle body to use as a bypass locally for $40, I am thinking all I need to do is remove the butterfly's from the throttle body portion(leaving the center rods) and figure out how to hook up the second throttle cable.
-Owen
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well, I picked up the G60 throttle body yesterday, it will bolt right up to the manifold I will be using!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA010001.jpg)
the bypass:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA010002.jpg)
closes as the throttle plate opens, so it bleeds boost off at idle and slowly forces more of the boost in until at full throttle it is closed, forcing 100% of the boost into the motor.
the only problem is that it has a throttle plate, not what a diesel needs
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA010004.jpg)
but that is easily dealt with(four phillips screws!)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA010008.jpg)
now it looks better!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA010009.jpg)
the G60 has a two sided intake, one for the air filter and one for the boost return, I plan on using the stock return location(maybe even find a set of the stock return piping)
as for the throttle cable issue, I plan on pulling the cable pull attachment from another throttle body and piggybacking it on the G60 one, so as the throttle body is opened by one cable it will pull on another, which will be attached to the injection pump.
the G60 throttle body also has an idle switch and a WOT switch, I plan on hooking the WOT switch to my water/meth injection system.
as for the idle switch, I am not sure, I was kinda thinking I could hook it up to the radiator fan, so when I am sitting in traffic(basically the only time the radiator fan is ever needed) the fan would come on, but as soon as I get back on the throttle and start moving it would turn off.
I am getting excited! I am going to check the motor to be rebuilt for all of this tomorrow and then start ordering parts!
-Owen
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I also picked up a EGT gauge and controller that will turn on the water/meth when my EGT's climb past a certain point.
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Is your 1.6 TD or NA? You might run into some issues with cooling if you are boosting a NA motor. Personally I think you would be better off using a 1.9 TDI motor instead.
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possibly, but I have a 1.6 sitting in my garage, and yes, it is an N/A.
but with a little careful work the N/A can be boosted really hard, I know, I have done it already.
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truckinwagen,
Now I am curious, how much pressure are we talking about?
I have an IDI engine also (1.9 N/A), and was wondering how much pressure I could use in the intake without blowing up the engine...
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the main difference between the turbo and N/A motors is the piston cooling jets(later N/A's had the cooling jets and are therefore identical to the turbo motors) so the name of the game is to keep the temps inside the motor under control.
its not so much about pressure as it is about EGT(exhaust gas temperature).
as long as you keep EGT's below 1000*F or so for any prolonged period of time( my motor saw 1300* for a second or two quite often) your motor should be fine.
I was running as much as 25PSI of boost on a stock N/A with a stock headgasket and headbolts.
a metal HG(like the AAZ one) and head studs will allow you to run more without fear of HG failure.
I will say here that this motor ran for a year driven hard every day like this, it died in an accident(and because of rust) and the motor is still in use(since rebuilt, but mostly because it was easy to rebuild once out of the car)
-Owen
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well, I looked at the stock G60 mounting bracket and I think if I relocate the alternator to where the AC compressor is supposed to go it will all clear the injection pump.
so I found and bought a G60 mounting bracket, so I don't have to spend a bunch of time fabbing one up.
I also pulled the motor I have apart to see what kind of shape it is in and the bearings look perfect, they plastigage at spec, so I will leave them in. the IM bearings look brand new too!
the rings need to be replaced however.
the head on this thing is beautiful too, barley any cracks between the valves, valves look new, and you can still see the line on the valve and seat from lapping!
I think all I will do is re ring this thing, clean up the ports in the head a little and throw it back together.
-Owen
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Sorry to come late to the party, but I really have to ask why you would want to throttle (bypass) the SC????
I read your earlier comments about "freewheeling" under turbo boost, but, that really doesn't matter. If the turbo starts putting out more pressue and runs into the positive displacement blower, who cares? You wouldn't be making the turbo boost without throwing enough fuel into the engine to load up the exhaust, so at that time you "need" as much air as you can fuel up. The only time that the SC would be an impediment is running low power at high RPM for an extended cruising time. The solution is simply a higher gear (as MAP = RPM for the SC) shifting the air moving tasks more towards the SC and away from the turbo. The same situation should apply while you are running just the SC. If you want/need more cruise efficiency, just use lower crank RPM. The EGT gauge will tell you what you can do.
The other consideration is that with the G60, you have a number of pulleys available to play games with the balance of boost from either the blower or the turbo. Damn, I wish I was further West, this would be one fun project to play in.
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for the moment, the motor will be supercharger only.
and I am putting a throttle controlled bypass in so that at idle and cruise the motor is not asked to generate boost, increasing efficiency.
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well, all my engine parts came in today(sans headgasket), and I have a date with the engine stand tomorrow, so I should have a fresh bottom end(W/pics) tomorrow night!
I went looking for a cylinder hone and the only place I can find a ball hone(Napa) wants $120 for it!!!
sounds a little ridiculous. apparently there is no tool rental place here that has one either, so I guess I will have to go buy a stone type hone and be careful.
anyway, progress is on the way(as are a supercharger mount and TT race downpipe!)
I will post pics tomorrow
-Owen
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the TT race downpipe came in today, and I have to say I am not that impressed.
the thing has been used hard, beaten on, and damaged.
but I only spent $100 on it and it is indeed the stainless race downpipe from TT.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA200016.jpg)
the flex sections have started to crack away from the welds, and someone has tried to re-weld them with a stick welder and an unsteady hand, blowing through the flex and making it worse.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA200015.jpg)
it has 2" primaries and a 2.25" outlet that someone has beaten on with a hammer and attacked with a sawzall
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA200020.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA200023.jpg)
the flex sections are a real bottleneck right from the factory, they only measure 1.5" ID, while the rest of the downpipe is 2" ID
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA200022.jpg)
I don't want to install an exhaust that is going to leak, so I plan on cutting out the flex sections and getting some braided flexes welded in.
I also plan on getting the worst of the outlet cut off and having a 2.5" piece installed in its place, as I wnt to run a 2.5" exhaust at some point.
I think I can have all of that done and still come in under the $350 TT wants ending with a better product.
-Owen
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i wonder what the point of hacking a hole in the collector was? more power? or to mimic the sound of a fart can equipped civic?
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no, I think it was welded to the exhaust he had on his car, and he started to cut it off there and thought better of it in favor of a little farther away.
still a good piece to work with.
it looks like I can get 2" ID flex couplers that are 4" long from JCWhitney for $20 a piece, and I can probably get them welded in for $45(the local shops minimum cost) if I do the cutting and prep so all they have to do is the actual welding.
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no, I think it was welded to the exhaust he had on his car, and he started to cut it off there and thought better of it in favor of a little farther away.
still a good piece to work with.
it looks like I can get 2" ID flex couplers that are 4" long from JCWhitney for $20 a piece, and I can probably get them welded in for $45(the local shops minimum cost) if I do the cutting and prep so all they have to do is the actual welding.
you might have a little trouble fitting the two flexes in there side by side - if you use a 2" flex, it will stick out a fair way on each side - they mght not actually get close enough together to fit - but good luck. seems to me TT did a bad job designing that to have those flexes there anyway, the factory uro gti downpipes are solid. i have a set on my gasser car and i put a nice big flex after the collector, and since there is an exhaust hanger just near the shifter box it takes the weight of the downpipe anyway.
either way, best of luck :-)
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I have been thinking about just making it solid to save a few bucks anyway.
as for there being enough room, the outside of the flexes are 2.5" in diameter, so I think a 2" braided flex would fit nicely in place of the stock 1.5" ones.
I intend to put a flex at the end of it anyway, so I might just have it made solid.
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I have been thinking about just making it solid to save a few bucks anyway.
as for there being enough room, the outside of the flexes are 2.5" in diameter, so I think a 2" braided flex would fit nicely in place of the stock 1.5" ones.
I intend to put a flex at the end of it anyway, so I might just have it made solid.
you will regret it making it solid. its gonna break in a matter of weeks, if not days. these engines torque too much to have solid mounted exhaust.
even tho there is two 1.5 inch primaries at the flex couplers, that makes the equivalent of a 3" single pipe. and if you are going to be running 2.5 inch pipe, that will be the biggest bottle neck, not the flex joints. how big are the holes in the flange of the manifold? not much bigger than 1.5" i bet... ive messed around with dual outlet 8v manifolds and they are not that big inside.
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the motor mounts will be all but solid when the diesel goes in(hockey pucks) so I am not too worried about it breaking, I might put a support from the back of the block to the downpipe too.
as for the flow, the two 1.5 pipes do not equal a 3" at all, the 2.5" will flow much better than the two 1.5" flexes.
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it looks like I can get 2" ID flex couplers that are 4" long from JCWhitney for $20 a piece, and I can probably get them welded in for $45(the local shops minimum cost) if I do the cutting and prep so all they have to do is the actual welding.
That's a ripoff, I went to the local exhaust fabber and bought a 2.25" ID 8" long braided flex coupler for 25 bucks, no shipping and that's usually the killer. Look around and see if a local shop has one ;).
Here's my piece welded in to the DP,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit083.jpg)
If you have a wirefeed welder it's not very hard to weld this stuff......$45 is quite a bit ;D
Keep it up, I'll be watching :D
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I am a good enough welder, but I don't have access to a wire feed here, I have a stick welder, and have done lots of exhaust work with it, but the stainless downpipe deserves better than that.
as for the cost of the coupler, the reason they cost so much is because they are so short, less than 4" long.
no one has any locally that fit the bill(are all 6" or longer) and JCW ships very reasonably through USPS.
I am seriously thinking about just replacing the flex sections with solid tubing and making a brace to the block, that would cut costs down quite a bit.
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hell, I might get some stainless electrodes and do some test welds on a couple pieces of tubing I have lying around to see how well it works.
I hate to pay other people for things that I can do myself.
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hell, I might get some stainless electrodes and do some test welds on a couple pieces of tubing I have lying around to see how well it works.
I hate to pay other people for things that I can do myself.
go with the 1/8th rod
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why not 3/32?
I usually use 3/32 on mild steel exhaust parts.
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the motor mounts will be all but solid when the diesel goes in(hockey pucks) so I am not too worried about it breaking, I might put a support from the back of the block to the downpipe too.
as for the flow, the two 1.5 pipes do not equal a 3" at all, the 2.5" will flow much better than the two 1.5" flexes.
the intercooler pipes on new fords are kinda squished down towards the end, and all the big name performance guys make replacement intercooler pipes for them. and all the ones i have seen, they transition to twin 1.5 inch pipes from the 3" coming from the turbo. it flows better than the oblong 3" 2 smaller pipes flow better than one big one. and thats a great idea on the hockey puck engine mounts. be sure to post up when your car starts rattling its self apart.
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two 1.5" pipes will not flow like a 3" one.
the cross section of a 3" pipe is much bigger than two 1.5" pipes.
the two 1.5" pipes will fit inside a 3" one with lots of room around them(get a piece of paper and a compass and try it)
the two separate pipes have much more wall area compared to cross sectional area than a single larger one, this adds friction to the moving air, impeding flow.
(all those classes in fluid and thermodynamics of ducting systems were not for nothing!)
not to be a jerk, but the truth is the truth.
-Owen
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as for the flow, the two 1.5 pipes do not equal a 3" at all, the 2.5" will flow much better than the two 1.5" flexes.
By the math.
The cross-sectional area of a pair of 1.5" diameter pipes is approximately 3.53 square inches.
This is roughly equal to a 2.125" diameter single pipe (3.55 square inches).
By contrast, a single 3" pipe has a cross-sectional area of nearly 7.1 square inches. ;D
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I am seriously thinking about just replacing the flex sections with solid tubing and making a brace to the block, that would cut costs down quite a bit.
now theres a good idea :-) better flow and longevity (since flexes will inevitably break, they must - the laws of physics ensure that). if you make it solid and brace it from the 90deg bend to the rear gearbox mount (simlar to an n/a downpipe brace) you'll have a win.
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ok, ok, i believe you. and its your build. so i cant make you do something.
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That's a ripoff, I went to the local exhaust fabber and bought a 2.25" ID 8" long braided flex coupler for 25 bucks, no shipping and that's usually the killer. Look around and see if a local shop has one ;).
Here's my piece welded in to the DP,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit083.jpg)
I'd be mad if I paid to have something welded and it looked like that....
Brendan
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if it were someone that didnt know jack *** about welding and didnt charge anything, i wouldnt be mad, but to pay a professional to do work like that, i would throw it through his front window.
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I think he welded it himself, as he was saying that with a wire feed exhaust is not a big problem to weld.
I am thinking about getting the right electrodes and sticking the downpipe(after some practice passes of course)
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That's a ripoff, I went to the local exhaust fabber and bought a 2.25" ID 8" long braided flex coupler for 25 bucks, no shipping and that's usually the killer. Look around and see if a local shop has one ;).
Here's my piece welded in to the DP,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit083.jpg)
I'd be mad if I paid to have something welded and it looked like that....
Brendan
My feelings are so hurt :'( (jk). yeah I welded it myself, I'm not an expert but I can make stuff stick together......all the the little welds are 'cause I had to tweek it little by little to make it miss the body. So I'd cut it halfway through and bend the crack shut and weld it ;D...........it works 8)
PS. That stupid neckdown at the end was to hook it up to the stock exhaust, since then I've necked it up to 2.5 ;D
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no, that actually looks pretty good.
as I said I use stick for everything, so my exhaust parts(being such thin pieces) tend to look like ass, but perform great.
it is settled, I am making it solid.
all I need to do now is find some 2" stainless tubing and a 2.5" flex coupler.
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Eh, sorry. 8) I don't know anything about stick welding so I can't comment.
This was my first attempt at a downpipe. My first real attempt at welding anything really:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_mDxOuTI25gI/StNZ6aOaXmI/AAAAAAAADIA/rbr9Q0Q-IKg/s800/IMG_4295.JPG)
I just finished the rest of the exhaust yesterday. Pretty excited.
Was that TT downpipe you got for a Mk1 or Mk2? I'm pretty sure I have one leftover from my Scirocco, I don't think it has any flex sections on it, just a ball-cup style flange at the end. The one you have sorta looks like an oem dual-downpipe, but I could be wrong.
Brendan
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the one I got their race(no provision for a cat) downpipe for an 8v mk2 using the stock dual outlet manifold.
stick welding is the simplest of all forms of welding, but it produces a bigger arc that has a tendency to blow through thinner materials if care is not taken.(the fact that I am using an $80 welder with minimal adjustments doesent help too much)
I try to sleeve all of my exhaust parts before welding(rather than butt welding them) to make the combined thickness a little more to prevent blow through.
in the end I am always happy with the way things come out.
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well, locally the smallest quantity of stainless welding rod I can get is 8 pounds.
and at $12 a pound, thats a bunch of money when I could probably finish this project with less than a 1/4 pound.
and no one on line who sells one pound packages of SS rod is willing to ship to AK.
it might end up being cheaper to have someone weld it for me after all.
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well, a little rummaging turned up some welding rod from NAPA that is supposed to work on cast iron and stainless steel.
it is not the 308 rod I was looking for, but they have a 1LB box for $10
so I am going to pick some up tomorrow and see how well it works on a test piece.
-Owen
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That's a ripoff, I went to the local exhaust fabber and bought a 2.25" ID 8" long braided flex coupler for 25 bucks, no shipping and that's usually the killer. Look around and see if a local shop has one ;).
Here's my piece welded in to the DP,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit083.jpg)
I'd be mad if I paid to have something welded and it looked like that....
Brendan
My feelings are so hurt :'( (jk). yeah I welded it myself, I'm not an expert but I can make stuff stick together......all the the little welds are 'cause I had to tweek it little by little to make it miss the body. So I'd cut it halfway through and bend the crack shut and weld it ;D...........it works 8)
PS. That stupid neckdown at the end was to hook it up to the stock exhaust, since then I've necked it up to 2.5 ;D
for doing it yourself its not bad at all. i just thought you paid a professional to do it was all. you actually did a fairly nice job... i bet it works great still, even if the welds are not super pretty.
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just picked up some 308 stainless welding rod from NAPA
the stuff they said they had over the phone for stainless turned out to be a cutting electrode, but when I went in I found the 308, which is what I wanted in the first place anyway.
it cost me $21 for a pound of 3/32" rod, I am pleased.
we will have to see how well they weld when I locate some stainless tubing.
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the fun of SS is it is easier to blow through then cold rolled
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just thought i'd put it out therer for people, that there's no problem with welding stainless with mild steel rods, wire etc. no galvanic reaction can occur and it will not corrode more easily than if the whole piece were from mild steel....
having said that, it is generally considered good practice to weld stainless with stainless, etc.
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well, I intended to have the bottom end built today, but fate stood in the way again.
I got the crank in, and the girdle figured out(all I need now are the longer bolts and to make the spacers)
but the IM shaft bearings, which I thought were good on first inspection, turned out to be bad.
and the IM shaft refuses to go back in, as if the bearings are too tight(even though the shaft spun freely before, and came out with no troubles)
so I am in the market for new IM shaft bearings, and somehow to get them into the block.
I am reading everywhere that the IM shaft bearings are ream to fit, which means I would need a machine shop to install them, are there any that are not ream to fit that I could install myself?
I also apparently did not clean the ring lands out properly, because the rings wont fit into the piston far enough to install them.
so I get to pull the rings out again and clean the ringlands again! YAY!
the supercharger bracket(from a G60 motor) interferes with the IP in its stock location, so I am going to make a spacer to set it out about 5" from where it bolts to the block(its either this or make a custom mount)
we will see how that works later on.
pics of what I did today to come later when I recharge my cameras battery.
-Owen
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here are the pics,
the pistons are in remarkable shape, very little wear to the skirts, slight pitting from bad injectors, and a few light valve marks.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA230001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA230003.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA230004.jpg)
and the girdle ready to be bolted on
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PA240006.jpg)
I also just bought a set of IM bearings(the non-ream to fit kind) from TT Tuning for $32 shipped, we will see how the installation goes.
-Owen
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Be careful putting those bearings in, I did it and buggered the first one and had to order a second set.
There's some pretty good writeups on how to change 'em.
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yeah, I will be taking my time for sure.
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just bought a VR6 alternator that I hope will mount where the AC pump used to be on the supercharger bracket.
I am making the stand to space the charger bracket to clear the IP, and I am hoping that the damn thing will fit in the car and not interfere with the core support with the charger sitting that far out from the block.
I have purchased a radiator from a honda civic EX, which is tall and narrow to put on the drivers side of the engine compartment(t fits nicely between the front motor mount bracket and the frame horn) to help the charger clear everything(and to make room inside the core support for my intercooler)
hopefully there will be pics soon.
-Owen
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Any progress? Interested to see how you solve to pully issues.
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not much progress lately, I have had to go out of town the past two weekends for a friends wedding.
I have a set of pulleys from a 1.8T motor and a Passat alternator coming in the mail, and I plan on making up some spacers for them to get the offsets right to line up.
hopefully this weekend I can get the pistons in, and mock up the supercharger bracket to figure out belt routing.
-Owen
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made some progress today, I have the bottom end built and the supercharger mocked up with the IP and pulleys.
as you can see the only pulley that does not line up is the water pump, but I am going to find a VR6 one which should work fine.
I am going to weld some 1/8'' plate in to reinforce the spacer for the supercharger bracket.
it is remarkably sturdy now though, I think it will work great.
well here are the pics!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130002.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130003.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130004.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130005.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PB130006.jpg)
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you're doing mine next eh? ;D Are you doing a full plate or a rib and gusset to reinforce the blower mount?
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I am going to box the sides in with plate so that the pieces of pipe are the corners of a box(ish shape)
I might put a diagonal inside the spacer too if I feel like it.
-Owen
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that shouldn't move at all
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thats what I think too.
the G60 had a mount from the back of the supercharger too that attached to the block at the breather.
the G60 guys on the vortex think that it is vital, but I am not so sure after looking at this thing mounted up without it.
-Owen
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Holy crizzap! That thing's hanging way out there! :o
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yeah, it is.
but thats just about as close to the block as I can get it before i interferes with the injection pump.
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yeah, it is.
but thats just about as close to the block as I can get it before i interferes with the injection pump.
interesting. I like how the G60 is finally used with a motor that has the RPM range that the G60 likes most. With that having been said I'd suggest you try mounting that in an engine bay to see if it fits. I think you will have core support & hood fitment issues.
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I think it will miss the hood, but the core support will have to be modified.
I am also using an upright radiator that will fir on the other side of the engine bay.
if I need to, I will put a hump in the hood to clear it.
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yeah, it is.
but thats just about as close to the block as I can get it before i interferes with the injection pump.
And I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with the spaces in transverse cars that I'm going to ask the obvious question: you couldn't make up a plate to slide it vertically down and in at all?
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the reason I didn't make a bracket to slide the charger down is that the bolts are not on the same plane, so spacers would be necessary anyway, and keeping perfect belt alignment would be difficult.
also moving the bracket down would make keeping the belt in contact with the water pump more difficult.
as for sourcing the right belt, I will measure the length with a strip of paper, and bring one of the pulleys in to get a belt the proper length with the proper profile.
-Owen
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and, thinking about it more, I think I can take about an inch off of the spacer if I trim up the supercharger and IP brackets a bit.
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thats not looking so great, might have to put it in a fox or something, the alternator barely fits on an ac car, i think you're gonna need to cut a lot, good luck tho, i really wonder how this will run. My brother has a supercharged vr6 corrado, and honestly i like turbo cars better because you can build boost at lower rpms, like when ur lugging up a hill at low rpms you can build full boost, with his corrado you have to down shift and get into a higher rpm to make the supercharger to make boost. but his car has a big valve head and a few other goodies, so it really boogies, probably around 275hp
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eh, maybe it will fit, hard to say. i just know its hard to work in the front part of the engine bay. its not like my gfs mini cooper tho haha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/DSCN0499.jpg)
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i will be surprised if you can fit that huge hunk of G60 behind the radiator and grille. i had to mount my radiator up side down to clear my alt after i put my intercooler in. now my alt and radiator are a few box hairs away from each other.
looks like you will have to run a super narrow radiator to be able to clear the s/c. a 90's civic radiator might be narrow enough, but who knows if it has enough cooling capacity for a diesel.
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I have a 94 civic radiator that actually fits between the motor mount and the frame horn on the drivers side.
this clears out in front of the supercharger completely.
I have no problem cutting up the core support a bit, and I was thinking about replacing the front motor mount with something thinner to bring the front of the motor down to clear the hood.
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realistically I would have to relocate the radiator anyway, so yes, seeing as the motor mount can be replaced with a bolt and hockey puck with a hole cut in the middle.
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jeebus, whats with all the hockey pucking? Those aren't made for supporting anything structural. I'd use it a a mold to make a proper poly bushing for that.
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well, maybe a hockey puck shaped piece of rubber that is thinner than the stock mount.
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well, this whole project has just been put on the fast track.
my GTI's clutch just failed, so I need to finish this quickly and shove it in the GTI(I really dont want to buy and install two clutched back to back)
a few things will be put off until later, like the head porting(I have a spare head to work on while the car is running) and the girdle.
I have a few new better ideas about how to do the girdle properly, and don't want to rush it, and again I have a spare block to do the girdle work on while the car is running, so no real loss there, I just wont run the motor too hard until I get it in.
I think I could have the car ready to test fire with one more good days work, I have all the parts, I just need to do assembly.
-Owen
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thats not looking so great, might have to put it in a fox or something, the alternator barely fits on an ac car,
That monster categorically would not fit set up like that in a Fox. There is enough space on that side of the engine for either the injection pump or an alternator, not both. They occupy the same space to clear the side-mounted radiator, which has very little space to move about in any direction to add to that clearance.
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That G60 is too big and bulky. BBM's Lysholm is much more compact and has a higher efficiency rating. I ran into the same pully problem with my caddy, but I am using the Lysholm. I am just glad it is more compact, I had a few more options with mounting.
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the G60 will fit!
it might take some massaging, but it will fit!
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Certainly a VNT with a proper vane control will come close to the performance of a supercharged or twin-charged motor without anywhere near the cost, complexity or efficiency loss. At the same time I'd love to see someone do a twin-charge and would also love to see the burnout videos. ;D
Who doesn't want to see burnout videos :P
I am a strong believer in the VNT design. A good vnt is alllmost as quick as a supercharger whilst, like andrew said, requiring little to no power loss. Were i able to afford one i would have one on my car.
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That is all true, but this is something different. The BBM SC can pump out 22 psi in no time at all, just imagin the fun!
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the supercharged(an eventually twincharged) motor idea really is to do something different and to prove it can be done.
as for the usage of the G60, it was cheap(and they still are compared to lots of the alternatives) and to prove that they are not a grenade sitting under the hood, but can be used for reliable power.
I just received my new alternator, and hopefully will be moving along with this pretty quick.
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That is all true, but this is something different. The BBM SC can pump out 22 psi in no time at all, just imagin the fun!
just imagine how much power it takes to pump out 22psi? LOTS! a turbo makin 22 psi will take right about 9 horsepower to build the boost.
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The intake will be finsihed soon on my caddy. It should be finished in about 2 weeks, I hope. I have a 02 TDI so the caddy will just be a fun car. I dont even think I will notice any HP loss with completely unrestricted exhaust, but we will see.
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just imagine how much power it takes to pump out 22psi? LOTS! a turbo makin 22 psi will take right about 9 horsepower to build the boost.
A Lysholm will not use any more than 9 hp to make 22psi.
Brendan
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I am pretty confident that the motor will make lots of power regardless of the parasitic loss from the supercharger.
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just imagine how much power it takes to pump out 22psi? LOTS! a turbo makin 22 psi will take right about 9 horsepower to build the boost.
A Lysholm will not use any more than 9 hp to make 22psi.
Brendan
i call extreme bull***... theres no way you can compress 22 psi of air with a roots supercharger powered by 9 hp. roots/twin scroll, what ever, it takes more than 9 hp. a eaton M90 takes almost 40 horsepower to make 15 pounds of boost...
lysholm superchargers do not work with voodoo and black magic.. the laws of physics still apply to them too.
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just imagine how much power it takes to pump out 22psi? LOTS! a turbo makin 22 psi will take right about 9 horsepower to build the boost.
A Lysholm will not use any more than 9 hp to make 22psi.
Brendan
i call extreme bull***... theres no way you can compress 22 psi of air with a roots supercharger powered by 9 hp. roots/twin scroll, what ever, it takes more than 9 hp. a eaton M90 takes almost 40 horsepower to make 15 pounds of boost...
lysholm superchargers do not work with voodoo and black magic.. the laws of physics still apply to them too.
Someone's been drinking Hater-ade this morning. First off, root and Lysholm are two different things. THe Twin screw has over 80% efficiency on the adiabatic scale. Most root style chargers are closer to 60%. Now once again, there reason for this project for me was to do something no one had done before. I started this project in the early summer, to find something to do with my caddy. I also have a 2002 golf TDI and enjoy the turbo. I am not saying one is better then the other, I just want both. If you are going to be a hater then go find another topic.
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Hey guys, we can have a calm discussion about this...
Just popping off PSI numbers for superchargers without talking about how much air they're moving while making that boost is rather meaningless. It takes a lot less power to push a liter of air at 15psi gauge pressure every minute than it does to push a thousand liters of air at 15 psi gauge pressure every minute.
I'd like to see a source other than the manufacturer's for that 80% efficiency for a lysholm. I've heard 60-70% for twin screw superchargers, with rootes blowers being more in the 25-40% efficiency. A centrifugal supercharger tends to have turbo-like efficiencies, in the 60-70% band, but the big advantage I see being hawked of a twin screw is that it's the "instant boost" throughout the RPM range, unlike a centrifugal.
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Caddy is running, just needs to be fine tuned a bit. Still needs some exhaust work done and I should be able to post a few pictures.
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A lysholm charger and a roots charger have twin screws, thats where the similarities end. A Lysholm has steeply tapered screws whereas a standard roots charger has a gentle taper. This steep taper keeps the charge cooler from what I understand, which is what we want, a cooler denser O2 level in a cooler charge. PSI means something, but if you are pushing hotter air, other factors come into play such as PING and combustion efficiency. They may be in the same zone for charge volume, but the cooler charge is going to win as it has more usable oxygen.
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im not trying to be a dick or start stuff, it just pisses me off when people think that something is way better just because they have one. lysholm chargers are good, sure, but they are not magic. i bet a g60 charger is more efficient than a lysholm.
and saying that a lysholm takes less than 9 hp to make 22 psi, yea, maybe if its moving a small amount of air at 22 psi. but a diesel engine takes significantly more air than that... i think its awesome that people are putting chargers on their diesels. i wanted to do it so bad, but i just dont have the means to do it right now.
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The reason I went with the lysholm is because it is more efficent then the G60. I researched this for a long time before I purchased the charger and started the project. The main reason I suggested it to truckinwagen is because we are both working on a similar project. The G60 is bulky, is known for failures and appears to be a pain to mount. The lysholm is half the size and much easier to mount considering you have to work around the IP.
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I may be totally wrong here, but I had always understood that scroll superchargers were the most efficient positive displacement supercharger(better than twin screw, but not as good as centrifugal)
the G60 is the only really available scroll supercharger, it really is not that big(the lysholm is just flatter and narrower)
the cheapness and efficiency are what drew me to the G60(that and they are fairly quiet)
I think I am going to initially build the motor with an N/A injection pump, the supercharger will make boost based on throttle position, not engine load, so I think it will work well, and will be easier to tune.
I will introduce the Cummins pump eventually, but as the project has been put on the fast track, I will wait on it.
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Both the Lysholm and the G60 (scroll) are internal compression superchargers, which is part of what makes them more efficient. All of the compression takes place within the body of the supercharger itself, in a relatively gradual manner. They make boost pressure through finesse rather than the Rootes blower's brute force, shove-more-air-than-the-engine-can-swallow approach.
The slower, more gradual compression over the body of the 'charger means that the air is cooler when it comes out, yes, so you get more actual air mass making the pressure versus heat applied to a smaller mass to produce pressure.
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im not trying to be a dick or start stuff, it just pisses me off when people think that something is way better just because they have one. lysholm chargers are good, sure, but they are not magic. i bet a g60 charger is more efficient than a lysholm.
and saying that a lysholm takes less than 9 hp to make 22 psi, yea, maybe if its moving a small amount of air at 22 psi. but a diesel engine takes significantly more air than that... i think its awesome that people are putting chargers on their diesels. i wanted to do it so bad, but i just dont have the means to do it right now.
no the exchange of info is what keeps us up to speed. When name calling occurs because someone can't discuss something because they really don't know. Its good to be able to argue and discuss the pros and cons of these situations. Hell it may bring a point up that the builder missed, even if it is a wild hair but can cause a major problem for the build.
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well, I spent a couple hours on the motor, and I have the webbing welded to the supercharger bracket spacer, which is about an inch shorter.
the supercharger is now as close as it can get without interfering with the injection pump itself.
I had to clearance the injection pump bracket, and the supercharger mount a bit, but I don't think I hurt the structure of either.
I will be spending some more time on monday, and will hopefully have the pan and head on by the end of monday night.
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Sounds like an interesting project, i have a blown g60 engine in the garage with charger and all accessories and bits but not the encouragement to throw it on a diesel. If there's any g60 parts/info you need let me know. :)
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well, I bought a headgasket for $65.
all the cheap stores only had three notch ones, and as I needed a one notch I was forced to go to FATS, possibly the most expensive place in the world to buy car parts.
as for G60 parts, I need the little link that goes between the back of the throttle shaft to the boost return on the G60 throttle body.
if you could spare one that would be great!
-Owen
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well, I bought a headgasket for $65.
all the cheap stores only had three notch ones, and as I needed a one notch I was forced to go to FATS, possibly the most expensive place in the world to buy car parts.
as for G60 parts, I need the little link that goes between the back of the throttle shaft to the boost return on the G60 throttle body.
if you could spare one that would be great!
-Owen
thats probably the only thing i dont have, sorry.
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thats cool, I was planning on making a new one with a pair of hiem joints and some allthread.
I got the head on, supercharger on, bottom end torqued, camshaft in, valves adjusted, pulleys on(the VR6 water pump pulley works perfectly), and the boost tubing on.
all I have to do now is throw the oil pan/valve cover on, install the injectors and pump and time it!
should be firing up next weekend!
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thats cool, I was planning on making a new one with a pair of hiem joints and some allthread.
I got the head on, supercharger on, bottom end torqued, camshaft in, valves adjusted, pulleys on(the VR6 water pump pulley works perfectly), and the boost tubing on.
all I have to do now is throw the oil pan/valve cover on, install the injectors and pump and time it!
should be firing up next weekend!
Video... please... :D
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weekend? thats only a couple hours worth of work, we wanna know how it runs, and we want to know now
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Just got my truck back, very excited to take it for a spin. 2 Issues I am having off the bat is the exhaust is way too loud...I have a head ache from just the sound. The other issue is the BOV, I am only getting around 10 PSI. Does anyone know a why to disable this or is there a block off plate for the intake? Anyway, here are some pictures of the set up, Paul Davis in Centraillia worked his magic on this and it looks great.
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af154/Tindias/Keagan016.jpg?t=1259105525)
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af154/Tindias/Keagan018.jpg?t=1259105567)
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af154/Tindias/Keagan019.jpg?t=1259105596)
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af154/Tindias/Keagan020.jpg?t=1259105624)
Sorry if the pictures are a little blurry, I had to use my camcorder since I cant find my camera.
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how does it run, and can you explain your bov issue a bit more? how about a movie
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It runs, it runs great in fact. THe problem with the BOV is that it is off the stock TD motor so it only allows about 10psi before it pops. I would like to be able to take advantage of the 15psi the charger is making with the stock pulley. After I get some new injectors and also want to upgrade to a 18psi pulley, but if the BOV will only allow 10psi then that would be a waste.
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There's a few ways to disable it... I know this is the 3rd time in 2 days I've typed this, but you can always just block off the hose coming off of it. I used a chunk of broomstick in my hose. Has been seeing 15 PSI daily for about a year now give or take without any issue.
You can also futz with the BOV itself and make it not open...
Or you can get (I think) an Eco-Diesel intake which doesn't have the BOV...
AAZ / TDI intakes don't have the BOV either but they have different shaped ports I think...
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it is true that there is only a few hours left before the motor breaths fire, but it is in a buddies shop, and I can only work on it when it is convenient for him.
which means that I can only work on it on weekends.
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There's a few ways to disable it... I know this is the 3rd time in 2 days I've typed this, but you can always just block off the hose coming off of it. I used a chunk of broomstick in my hose. Has been seeing 15 PSI daily for about a year now give or take without any issue.
You can also futz with the BOV itself and make it not open...
Or you can get (I think) an Eco-Diesel intake which doesn't have the BOV...
AAZ / TDI intakes don't have the BOV either but they have different shaped ports I think...
Problem is, the intake was cut and welded to fit the charger. If there was a block off plate I could buy to just clamp it shut that would be better. I would rather remove the BOV instead of modify it.
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isn't Giles selling block off plates?
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its so easy to make it not work, i unscrewed the adjustment screw in the middle, removed the spring and put a dall rod in that was about 1 inch long and tightened the screw back in, you could use a bolt, or any solid object that is the right length, maybe a rock haha.
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Would it be possible to remove the internals and just screw the cap back on? I have never seen the inside of a BOV lol.
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Nevermind, then it would be stuck open...I guess I will pull it off in a few days and see what I can fit in there.
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There's a few ways to disable it... I know this is the 3rd time in 2 days I've typed this, but you can always just block off the hose coming off of it. I used a chunk of broomstick in my hose. Has been seeing 15 PSI daily for about a year now give or take without any issue.
You can also futz with the BOV itself and make it not open...
Or you can get (I think) an Eco-Diesel intake which doesn't have the BOV...
AAZ / TDI intakes don't have the BOV either but they have different shaped ports I think...
Problem is, the intake was cut and welded to fit the charger. If there was a block off plate I could buy to just clamp it shut that would be better. I would rather remove the BOV instead of modify it.
If it was cut and welded to fit the charger, why not remove the BOV and then weld up the hole? seems pretty logical and gives a cleaner look then plugging it with the end of a broom handle or etc...
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I admit that would have been the best way to do it. I did not think about it at the time the work was being done. However had I known it was going to pop at such low psi things might be different.
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I plan on removing the BOV and inserting a bolt to keep it open, later I will purchase one of Giles plates to clean the engine up a bit.
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You don't have to remove the BOV to insert the bolt, just unthread the center threaded plug.
yeah the entire job should take less than 10 minutes
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Any chance of a video? ;D
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I will charge my camera tonight and maybe get a video on youtube tomorrow.
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make sure both of you keep a good eye on your crank sproket. for realz
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yeah, I am using and early crank with the woodruff key style sprocket.
I feel it is a superior design as far as strength goes, but I will be keeping an eye on it pretty closely.
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from a perspective of someone who has had lots of experience with woodruff keys in industrial applications I believe the woodruff key to be superior.
the late crank sprocket relies on friction to keep it from spinning, the woodruff key relies on the mechanical connection of the parts.
I have seen woodruff keys much smaller take loads much greater for very long time periods.
if it does fail, I have a spare set of early crank/sprockets and a set of late ones as well.
-Owen
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i had my early crank sprocket go to *** and i have v belts and ac. and i know someone with a 1.5 that had the same thing happen. with out having to put a new crank in, the only thing i could do was get a new key, and a new crank sprocket. i agree though, i'd be pretty scared to have a supercharger and a serpentine belt both on the early crank sprocket, keep your eye on it, mine didn't just *** out, it wobbled all over the place first, i thought it was the crank pulley but it was actually the sprocket
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I am using a 1.6 TD motor engine code JR, any issues with those crank sprockets?
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if its a turbo diesel it has the better crank nose, still not a good one to use with a serpentine belt tho
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well, my buddy decided not to let me into the garage today, so no more progress until next weekend.
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I saw a clean G60 Corrado in the junkyard recently, and I've been dreaming about putting that supercharger on my 1.6 N/A for weeks. I logged on to the forum because I'm frustrated with how slow my car is, and what do you know? Somebody is really doing it.
I'm proud of you for putting all this effort into your car and doing something unique. Tell your friend he needs to give you a key to his shop, and make sure he knows you'll leave beer in his shop fridge when you're gone.
Have you found a belt that fits?
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I wish I could get a key to his shop, but he is weird about letting people use it.
I don't have a belt yet, as soon as I get the alternator put on I will measure and get a belt that fits.
-Owen
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I am very happy with all the work Paul Davis did on my SC diesel. Runs great, but still need to find some time to fine tune the BOV. I have a video that I was going to post but I am having issues with my JVC importing to my computer. There is no driver for vista so I am going to try and use my dad's camcorder so I can get some videos on youtube.
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why do you need a damn blow off anyway?
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I dont, I am going to pop it open and insert a shim. I will purchase a block off plate from giles down the road.
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Here is a video from my phone....sounds and looks horrible I know, but I am going to see if I can use my friends camera that records to MMC cards.
G60 Diesel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tw4s85EdI0#)
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well, I got a bunch more done today.
injection pump on and engine timed.
alternator mounted(just need to get two bolts to finish attaching it)
oil pump on
IM shaft bearings replaced and IM shaft installed
belt routing mocked up.
here are some pics.
my IM bearing tool(thanks to the Home Depot)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC040001.jpg)
the IM shaft installed
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC040002.jpg)
this is cool, the 1.8T serp pulley has a notch that lines up with the IM shaft pulley at TDC.
this will make engine timing sooo much easier!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC040005.jpg)
adapter being made to account for the offset difference on the alternator
(it has been completely welded, and reinforced with some plate now)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050006.jpg)
initial belt mockup
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050008.jpg)
as you can see here, it did not allow for much belt contact with the water pump pulley.
I will fix this by adding a timing belt tensioner at the lower alternator bolt, this will get more contact with the water pump, and allows for tensioning the belt without moving the alternator.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050011.jpg)
this is how I left the motor today
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050013.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050014.jpg)
I need to get a couple bolts to finish installing the alternator, and then measure for the length of the serp belt.
other than that, all I need to do is add oil, hook up the glow plugs and give it fuel.
but I think I will wait on that until it is sitting in the engine bay.
-Owen
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Pretty impressive dude!
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its getting there.
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Is there a water pump impeller out there for reverse rotation? Seems like wrapping the outside of the belt around the top of the water pump pulley would work PERFECT, but that would require a water pump that spun the other way...
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well, I got a bunch more done today.
this is cool, the 1.8T serp pulley has a notch that lines up with the IM shaft pulley at TDC.
this will make engine timing sooo much easier!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC040005.jpg)
-Owen
Aren't you going to have a timing belt cover? That would get in the way unless you poke a little hole in it.
Good work :)
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great work!! real top notch stuff
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about the timing belt cover, I cant find anywhere to get a lower one, and the local dealer says that they are NLA.
I would like a lower cover, but dnt have one to put on it.
as for the upper cover, I have never had anything but problems with them, if I could find one of the later ones with the backing plate that bolts to the engine and the cover that clips on I would run it, but I hate the early style ones, and will probably just run without it.
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thanks for that, I'll grab one of those!
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Is there a water pump impeller out there for reverse rotation? Seems like wrapping the outside of the belt around the top of the water pump pulley would work PERFECT, but that would require a water pump that spun the other way...
this would be the way I would prefer to do it, but I have never found a counter rotating water pump to use.
so for now I will use the TB tensioner.
if you find a counter rotating water pump, let me know!
-Owen
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there is a pump that spins the other way, i forget what it comes off of, but people putting serpentine belts on there gassers use them
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that would be cool, but from where?
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there is a pump that spins the other way, i forget what it comes off of, but people putting serpentine belts on there gassers use them
I'll just say that I thought I had read the exact same thing. Sorry I can't recall what it was from though.
Have you verified that the notch is in fact TDC?
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It's too bad about the sounds in the video tindias.
I'm impressed with your engineering.
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Have you verified that the notch is in fact TDC?
yes I have, although I will still use the pointer in the bellhousing for actual timing, having something on the same side of the motor as the crank pulley will make turning the motor to TDC alot easier(as I dont have long enough arms to turn the crank and look into the bellhousing hole at the same time)
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What I do is put the engine in 4th gear and jack up the drivers side wheel. Then I just rotate the wheel while looking at the pointer.
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that works, but do you do it that way to time the engine?
I have found that it is very easy to turn the crank too much, and finding perfect TDC is fiddly.
the notch in the pulley may make it a little easier.
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i just made a thread on the tex, cause i know i've seen them but i cant remember where from
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cool, I just put one up in the MK2 forums as well, and I might throw one up in the G60 forum too.
-Owen
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What about using an ALH roller like one of the ones in this picture?
http://www.dieselgeek.com/images/DCP_8363.JPG (http://www.dieselgeek.com/images/DCP_8363.JPG)
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well, I have a couple gasser timing belt tensioners lying around, so for the moment I will proceed that way.
but if a reverse rotating water pump becomes available, I will go that route to eliminate moving parts.
-
I did some searching, didn't come up with much
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4099567 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4099567)
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yeah, I have done extensive searching on the vortex, and the interwebz in general, and come up with nothing.
one thing that came up was to import the impeller into cad, mirror it, and then have it machined.
might be doable, but pretty costly.
the other thing is, weren't some of the impellers(maybe cheap replacements) stamped out of steel with little flaps bent inwards?
one like that would not be too difficult to manufacture with the flaps made facing the other way.
-Owen
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the other thing is, weren't some of the impellers(maybe cheap replacements) stamped out of steel with little flaps bent inwards?
one like that would not be too difficult to manufacture with the flaps made facing the other way.
They're not very good pumps, though.
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well, the general consensus os that reverse water pumps do not exist.
it is also apparent that that is plenty of belt contact to turn the water pump.
that being said, I am going to put the timing belt tensioner on the alternator bracket simply to make adjusting the belt tension easier.
-Owen
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yeah those pumps really suck on a jetta/golf, but on a vanagon i heard they barely work, i think i put one on my car but i don't remember, kind of regret that.
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If you mirrored the impeller you would also need to mirror the scroll in the water pump casting.
Good point......plus they're junk.
-
how about a standalone electric water pump?
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how about a standalone electric water pump?
like this
http://www.csr-performance.com/shop/product.da/csr925-univeral-remote-electric-waterpump (http://www.csr-performance.com/shop/product.da/csr925-univeral-remote-electric-waterpump)
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Is it running, yet?
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nope, the holidays have taken my time, have to go to homer to visit the folks and what not.
the motor will be going in the car after the new year.
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Good luck, man.
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What I do is put the engine in 4th gear and jack up the drivers side wheel. Then I just rotate the wheel while looking at the pointer.
i missed this part of the thread, i stick mine in 3rd (i have a 4 speed) and then just push the car forward and back to set it where ever
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well, the swap is scheduled for the second of january, so I will post updates with lots of pics after then.
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well, I have the motor in my car, and will be installing it this weekend.
I have a question, I have a line on a Holset H1C (almost exactly the same as a HY35) in reasonable condition, might need a rebuild, but rebuild kits can be found for $50 so I am not worried about that.
I have been looking at turbo maps and my brain is starting to hurt, anyone have any idea if it would be a good fit blowing into the G60?
I plan to have the G60 generating 15 pounds of boost, and would like to push 15-20 PSI into it.
I think it would be a good fit flow wise, but I cant quite work out if it will be too big or not.
thanks,
-Owen
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well, I have the motor in my car, and will be installing it this weekend.
I have a question, I have a line on a Holset H1C (almost exactly the same as a HY35) in reasonable condition, might need a rebuild, but rebuild kits can be found for $50 so I am not worried about that.
I have been looking at turbo maps and my brain is starting to hurt, anyone have any idea if it would be a good fit blowing into the G60?
I plan to have the G60 generating 15 pounds of boost, and would like to push 15-20 PSI into it.
I think it would be a good fit flow wise, but I cant quite work out if it will be too big or not.
thanks,
-Owen
That would be a lot of boost going into the engine!!
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thats sorta the idea, but I am tinkering with ideas to bypass the G60 once the turbo spools, so there would not be that much more boost, but less power lost to the supercharger, and the big turbo would spool faster with the supercharger helping on the low end.
-
there is also a K26 I could get, which might be a better match size wise, but the rebuild kit is more expensive.
-
swap is finished, worked on the car for 22 hours straight.
it wont start, feels like it is trying, but wont catch and run, even towed the car in gear for a mile or so, and no good.
I am thinking that it is a timing related issue, exacerbated by working the air out of the pump.
I tried to pull the timing plug off the injection pump to confirm timing, but it is stuck in the larger round bit on the end of the pump which wants to un-thread instead.
is removing the larger plug from the end of the pump an issue? will it screw anything up if I unthread it to put it in a vise to get enough purchase to remove the timing plug, and then replace the larger threaded plug onto the pump?
motor is soooo close to running, but wont, is there anything other than timing that could be keeping it from starting? glow plugs are good, I loosened the injector lines at the injectors and there is fuel there, so the pump seems to be priming, even though when you stop cranking air bubbles come back out the feed line.
any tips from the masters? this is the third motor I have started fresh, and the other two just fired up after ten or so minutes of cranking, this one, not so much.
thanks in advance for the help!
-Owen
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There was some talk about the problem you have with air bubbles coming out the feed line a day or so ago. I think it was the pump shaft seal leaking. Blow some compressed air at the seal and see if more air comes out? Good luck. Can't wait to hear and see some video of it running.
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Come on, little rabbit!
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I think realistically the air is just left from the pump being empty when it was installed, and it has not worked out yet, it works back into the feed line because it is the highest point in the system.
I think once it primes it will be fine, as this is the pump that did fine on my last motor.
I really think at this point that it is a timing issue, and my real question is wether or not removing the large threaded plug on the end of the pump head that the timing plug threads into would be an issue.
-Owen
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did u try rotating the pump a bit just to see if it would start at all? i wanna see pics of it in, this ***s cool, cant wait till it runs
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its good to hear that the large plug can be removed, and I dont have to worry about getting the small plug out by itself.
I did advance the timing by rotating the pump back a bit, with no luck. but I dint know what it was at before, so it could still be really retarded.
anyone have any tips about how to do an initial pump prime faster? I have a lift pump, but it does not seem to efficiently work all the bubbles out of the pump.
-Owen
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my lift pump will completely prime my pump. i just let it pump till i can hear fuel running out of the return line from the ip.
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If that "big plug" is loose the pump won't be able to build enough high pressure to fire the injectors properly.
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the big plug is tight, is just that the small one is tighter so when I try to pull the small one the big one comes loose.
and the stock lift pump is putting fuel through the pump just fine, but there still seems to be pockets of air in the pump. not lots by any means, but enough to be a pain.
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I almost forgot! pics!
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/ (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/)
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here are a few of the best pics, there are many more(140 of them) so take a peak at the album linked above too
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3688.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3698.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3700.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3708.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3711.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3721.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3736.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3749.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3750.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3755.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/motor%20swap/IMG_3774.jpg)
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why is it always big guys that like little fast diesel cars? my friends always give me crap for driving VW powered rigs, but i would like to see a civic with as much leg or head room.
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tis true, the MK2 is a damn comfy ride.
at least on pavement, the lowered suspension makes rough roads a real hair raiser.
-Owen
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another thing, does your hood shut? s/c looks a bit high in the pics.
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yes it does, but it is close.
I am going to need heavy duty motor mounts to keep it from smacking the hood on hard launches.
also, I just fund a electronic speedo sender for my 020, so I can get rid of the stock cluster for good, and get rid of that pesky speedo cable.
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Beer and angle grinders, now there's a combo :)
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I spent the day sober, my buddy mike, however, did not ;D
I am heading back out to his place tomorrow to see if setting the injection pump timing will get it running.
I really hope the clutch is still good, it made some smoke trying to tow it to prime the pump, I had to be on it more than I wanted to keep the tires from locking up.
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Just got my son to bed and have a correct cable to use with my camera. Here is a better video of my Caddie, more to come once I get enough time to work on it and film more.
G60 Diesel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSAcDXLiCCk#ws)
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Thats bad ass :o.
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I spent the day sober, my buddy mike, however, did not ;D
I am heading back out to his place tomorrow to see if setting the injection pump timing will get it running.
I really hope the clutch is still good, it made some smoke trying to tow it to prime the pump, I had to be on it more than I wanted to keep the tires from locking up.
what did you do to the G60 throttle body? does it have anything in it anymore? i was thinking about that last night, but you probably already gutted it right?
-
the throttle body has had the butterflies removed and the bypass closed for the time being.
eventually I will work out a way to pull both cables to make the bypass close under throttle which will allow me to use the idle and WOT switches it has as well.
-
well, no start yet, got the pump timed and it tried, but then the pump started to leak out of every seal(BAD) so I will be heading back out in the next couple days to replace it with onother one in hopes that it fixes it.
-Owen
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I am going to try the cummins injection pump, it is new, so I am confident that it wont leak fuel everywhere.
I have not done any modifications to it yet, are there any reasons why a stock cummins 4BTA pump would not run? anything I need to do differently to get it to run? a different timing spec?
I am thinking that I will start off at 1.00MM of lift for timing and see what happens, and adjust accordingly.
sound good?
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I'd try and report back... ;)
Camplate will most likely be different. Whether that's good/bad/indifferent is anybody's guess since it's a totally custom build anyhow!
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I will do, apparently it has an IDI type camplate with higher lift, so it should work alright with the IDI motor, the governor will probably have to be fiddled with as the cummins motors are built for much lower RPM use, but being an uncaged spring design it should be easy to modify.
I have been looking at clutches, and a little research shows that our 200mm clutches have the same splines as the 200mm aircooled beetle clutches, which opens up a whole world of cheap performance clutches to us.
I am going to get a 4 puck feramic clutch for $70 shipped!(most of that is shipping in fact, bastards wont ship USPS)
-
why wouldnt you just run a 210 mm clutch? cause you cant really get any agressive pressure plates for 8v engines from my experience. im running a 200mm clutch in my GTI, and i can tell the difference. i took out a more shot 210mm, and put in a less shot 200mm disk. i totally regret doing it too. im pretty sure my diesel has a 16v 210mm PP, its considerably harder to push the clutch in on that one than any other 8v ive driven. and it grabs like a mother too, for a half worn out clutch that is. so if you are gonna want something thats gonna hold good, i dont really know of a 200mm uprated pressure plate.
-
clutchnet.com has just about any combination you want. They will also custom make an idea if they don't have it and if you want to pay for an experiment :D
-
I would like to stay away from a high tension pressure plate, they put more load on the thrust bearing, and with the right clutch they are unnecessary, I am looking at a four puck feramic clutch, which would grab better and hold more power than a bigger clutch and heavy pressure plate.
if I can convince CIP1 that UPS ships ground to Alaska, I can have it for cheap too(only $37 for the clutch disc)
-
yes, I will have to see which valve spurts when, not a big deal really.
what I was wondering is that since the camplate is so aggressive, and it has a 12mm pump head, do you think I will have to modify the timing spec?
not that its a huge deal to do so, but if it will need more advance to run, I would like to just start there to begin with.
and thanks for all the help again,
-Owen
-
thats what I planned on doing, but probably somewhere in the same ballpark as the vw pump right?
I think I will start at 1.00 and see what it does.
-
well, just got done arguing with a customer service rep at CIP1.com and they "cant" ship UPS ground, but the clutch still ends up being cheaper shipped than the clutchnet one is before shipping.
so I think I will be getting a 4 puck clutch made for an aircooled beetle in the next couple days(just need to find $70)
-Owen
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cool, good to hear.
I will be reporting all of my findings as soon as this thing runs ;D
-
well, I swapped the delivery valves for a set of short ones, so I can use the injection lines I have on the car.
unfortunately I don't have a set of turbo lines that have the bend to clear the LDA.
-
thats what I thought, just pull the pump forward and put the belt one tooth over on the pulley to make up for it.
I am heading out to swap the pump in just a few minutes, wish me luck!
-Owen
-
Good luck.
I forget, do you have an EGT gauge?
-
I do, but I forgot to put the thermocouple in the manifold when I had it off the motor.
good news! the motor started, but not for long.
I noticed that there was not oil pressure, so I turned it off and started looking.
turns out that I have a short shaft oil pump, and a vacuum pump designed to drive a long shaft oil pump, so it was not spinning it.
all the oil pumps I have lying around are short shaft, and I don't have another vacuum pump, so I will talk to the local VW shop to see if they have either a long shaft oil pump, or a short shaft vacuum pump.
-
I set the pump at .90mm and it fired right up after priming the injection lines.
sounds really rattly and could probably retard it a bit further, but I haven't been able to drive it around yet, so I will wait until after it is on the road to decide where the timing should sit permanently.
-Owen
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I'd be a bit worried about EGTs with that pump. It's going to give you lots of low end fuel.
-
yeah, I will get the EGT thermocouple in, I just need to get the motor running first.
it certainly makes lots of smoke if you mash the pedal ;D
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I have a used oil pump I don't need anymore, I don't know how to tell if it's long or short though.
Why do they have differing shaft lengths?
What type of vac pump do you have vane or diaphram?
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Thanks for the offers guys but i found one locally for a hundred bucks. It came with a vane style vacuum pump. More than i wanted to spend but its here today. Turns out that the bottom end bearings got blown when it ran without the oil pump. So i an going to grab a set of rod and mains tomorrow and install them sunday.
-
the very early pumps are splined, later diaphragm pumps are short shaft. the latest diaphragm and vane pumps are long shaft. from what ive observed atleast... my 1.5 has a 1.6 turbo oil pump tho. so i tried putting my oil pump in, and it simply wouldnt seat against the block, so i pulled the vacuum pump and it fit no problem, but then the vac pump wpuldnt go back in. so finally i put the took the turbo vac pump on with the turbo oil pump and it worked great. just sucks you had to do it the other way around. mine evere went all the way together, so i knew something wasnt right. yours probably slipped together like butter huh?
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yep, never realized anything was wrong until the damage was done.
-
well, no one local has the bearings.
so I will be ordering a set and then dealing with them when they arrive, probably wont be until next weekend.
and I am trying to find a spring to replace the governor spring in the injection pump, the cummins pump is governed hard at 2900RPM, acts like a rev limiter on a gasser, full fuel until it hits, and then just cuts off hard.
I think there is a local place that can get me one, but I need to figure out how stiff a spring I need.
was thinking I would start at 25 pounds and see what that does.
-Owen
-
definitely will be paying attention to how that spring works out
-
Great thread. Supercharger and a cummins pump, killer!
-
it will be once the damn thing runs.
I ordered a set of main and rod bearings in standard and first undersize, (I don't know if the crank has been ground or not, as I used the bearings that were in it during the rebuild)
I will return whichever set I don't end up using.
as for the spring, I might have some issue, the local seller does not have the spring rate listed, so I am looking for a reliable way to measure it before I buy one.
-Owen
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so put a five pound weight on it and a ten pound weight on it(not necessarily the weights I would use, but for the sake of conversation) and measure the difference in deflection.
if it deflects 1" more with the 10 pound weight than with the 5 pound weight it has a spring rate of 5 pounds?
or how does that math work?
-
so if I were to go in with a 5 and ten pound weights, I would be looking for how much difference in deflection?
sorry, but my brain is unwilling to work properly. the semester starts in two days, and it seems to have decided to utilize every moment possible not thinking about stuff.
thanks,
-Owen
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I already tried the VW governor assembly, and it would take way too much cutting of the pump top to make it work.
I thought of a great idea though, what about a fish scale?
hook it to the spring, pull until the spring has moved 1/2 inch and read the fish scale, then again at 3/4(or whatever) and read it again, do math.
that and the fish scales are remarkably accurate and cheap(like $8)
I don't have the GTI with me, it is sitting at my buddies house 50 miles away, and sharing the other car with my wife makes getting to the GTI difficult until next weekend(when I want to drive it the 50 miles home)
so I think I will try to find a spring in the 25 pound range to get me on the road, and then work out where that puts me/get another one after I have the car sitting outside my apartment.
-Owen
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well, I just got my hands on the elusive G60 throttle body linkage!
the guy I bought the throttle body from found it in his garage when he was cleaning up.
now all I have to do now is figure out how to pull two throttle cables at once...
parts shipped today, so I should have a set of bearings and a clutch to install on sunday.
since I don't have a car, shopping for the new governor spring will have to wait until friday when I can borrow the wifes rig.
-Owen
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the clutch came in, small little guy, but seriously heavy duty!
should have the rest of my parts tomorrow too, so hopefully everything will be good to go.
-
Installed 16v Master, booster and pedals the other day. Just need to bleed them now. BOV is shimmed and the stack is pumping lots of smoke now, very sexy. Hope to install the nitrous and have a WOT video posted very soon.
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You guys should meet 1/2 way & race!!! Where's that, somewhere around the BC / Yukon border on highway 97?? No chatting, just drive till you meet, race, & drive home.
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Installed 16v Master, booster and pedals the other day. Just need to bleed them now. BOV is shimmed and the stack is pumping lots of smoke now, very sexy. Hope to install the nitrous and have a WOT video posted very soon.
why do you have a BOV? they are a waste of time. if you dont have a good reason to have it on there, you should take it off. or do you have it there for a good reason?
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he shimmed the BOV so it would not open, as a stop gap until he can get a blockoff plate for it.
and as far as the race goes, I would be down, but thats farther than I want to drive in a weekend(and I only have weekends now that school started)
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well, I went out and bought the stiffest springs I could find.
they are 1.5" long, which is a little longer, but I think I can adjust the throttle lever position to make up for it.
I got a fish scale, which has a tape measure built in, which makes measuring pounds per inch very easy.
I measured the springs, and they are only 11lbs/inch.
they are very clearly MUCH stiffer than the stock governor spring, and I will just have to see what they do as far as max RPM.
the other thing I thought about is shortening them a little(cutting some coils off, and bending one back into a loop) to match the length of the stock spring, which would make them a little stiffer.
parts are still in the mail >:( but hopefully they will come today.
-
just received three of the four boxes of parts I ordered.
the only thing still on the way is a new timing belt for the G60 supercharger, which is not needed right away, so I am content to let USPS spend a few more days with it.
-Owen
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an interesting article (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/09/electric-supercharger-hybrid-boosts-torque-better-mpg.php) about electric superchargers :)
just get a big capacitor and bingo 8)
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I will respectfully not open that can of worms...
-
I will respectfully not open that can of worms...
fair enough. just thought i'd throw it out there as a viable alternative to all the bulkiness of traditional supercharging, not to mention the reliability issues...
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some guy around town has a turbo saab that supposedly has one of those on it. he calls it twin charged. he keeps telling my brother he can beat him in a race. my brother has a corrado slc with a stage 2 vortech supercharger, a big valve head, and a 2.5" exhaust all the way out the back no cat. I loled
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well, I went and replaced the rod and main bearings,(not something I want to do in the car EVER AGAIN) and the old ones did not look all that bad, some obvious wear, but not enough to warrant the noise we heard.
put it all back together with a new clutch, transmission shaft seal and pushrod seal, fired it up, and guess what; the noise is still there.
confident that it was not a bearing nock this time, we let it run for a while listening to the noise.
it is a kind of hollow sound, like you are hitting the oilpan or valve cover with a pall peen hammer.
it is inconsistent, happens more when warm, its RPM driven, and diminished when the motor is revved.
I talked to my dad(a longtime marine diesel mechanic) and he says that it sounds like an injection noise, like it is too far advanced and igniting on the upstroke, making a "knock" sound.
so we are going to do some more fiddling, retard the pump timing, loosen the injector lines one at a time to see if it is one injector in particular is making the noise etc...
unfortunately, however, it became obvious that it was too late in the evening to continue(schoolnight etc...) so I will be heading back out tomorrow to see if we can finish it.
-Owen
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My Dad has a golf gasser that does that knocking, only it gets quieter when warmed up.
We changed the rod bearings and hydro lifters and it still happens, we suspect wrist pin bushing(s) :'(
Hope your's ain't that, try loosening the injector lines one at a time and see if it goes away.
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I am going to bet it is a combination of really advanced timing(from the fact that this pump makes pressure much faster than the VW one) and my poorly balanced injectors.
I need to get them professionally rebuilt and pop tested, I think one of them is opening too soon, which is not too huge of an issue until timed way to advanced, and it makes the "knock" (even farther advanced than the others due to low opening pressure)
for the time being I will retard the timing, but when I get the chance(and the $$) I will send a set of injectors out to giles to make sure they are right.
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if its not the timing check the wrist pin bearings.
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figured it out, it was a bad injector!
loosened the #4 injector line and the knock stops! and the engine speed did not drop like it would if the injector was working right.
I stuck a spare injector in hoping(a vain hope I know) that it would work, but alas it too was stuck.
so I have rounded up four injectors to send to Giles for a rebuild and calibration.
the car will sit until I get the injectors back.
I feel good about it, I know for sure what it is, and it is not a big deal to replace them(less than an hour start to finish)
-Owen
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well, I think I am going to buy a set of reman injectors from autohausaz.com
they are $34 with an $11 core, and they can be in the mail today(hopefully to get them by this weekend)
-Owen
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oh yeah, it sounded like a rod ready to come out through the side of the block.
I replaced the rods and mains thinking they were the culprit(and they did need replaced, but not worn too bad) before loosening the injector line.
just ordered a set of reman injectors from autohausaz.com as well as an extra set of heat shields and a pair of balljoints( might as well while they are shipping a box anyway)
hopefully they come in on friday, and I can head out saturday to install them.
apart from the hellish banging noise from the injector, the motor runs well.
the G60 is putting out about 1PSI at idle(about 1000RPM, but without a tach its impossible to tell)
and put out about 10PSI when revved as far as I felt safe with the bad injector(about 3000RPM, but again hard to tell without a tach)
I do have a mechanical testing tachometer(that you hold onto the end of a spinning shaft) that I will use to set the idle and see how high it will rev with once the new injectors go in, and I will report back with boost numbers at rpm levels.
it is starting to look like a real screamer, the injection pump is a little different than an vw one, in that it takes much less pedal input to get response from the motor(this is revving in neutral though, so we will see what that actually means when driving later.)
-Owen
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this is exciting.
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this is exciting.
your telling me, every time I go to work on this thing I think it will be done and get excited, only to be let down by the fact that it still wont run.
but all that is past, I am confident that this is the last issue, and I will be driving it soon!
lots of pics and vids to follow of course!
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You guys should meet 1/2 way & race!!! Where's that, somewhere around the BC / Yukon border on highway 97?? No chatting, just drive till you meet, race, & drive home.
A race does sound like fun, but I need to be able to stop first lol. The 16v Master/booster are in, but the bleeders on the rear drums look like they were broken off long ago. I planned on swapping the rear disc from my Scirocco over, I guess I will be doing that sooner then expected. I do have the E30 rear end for the Scirocco, so there really is no reason to wait. I hope to have the diesel rear discs on before weeks end.
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I am toying with exhaust ideas as the downpipe that I bought for $100 turned out to be garbage(the flex sections are all cracked and the outlet has been ravaged by a hammer and sawzall)
I think I have found a full 4-2-1 header on the 'tex for $50, which was about what I had planned to spend repairing the downpipe, so...
but after that I am not sure what to do, the car has a 2.25" TT exhaust on it right now, with a dynomax second muffler.
with the gasser in it it was more raspy than I like, but I am not sure what the diesel will sound like(most of the exhaust gases are coming out the torn flexes in the downpipe)
I am thinking about running the 4-2-1 header to a 2.5" side exit, but am unsure what muffler to use.
thoughts?
would the side exit be worth the work(really not that much work as an over axle section would not be needed)
or should I stick with the dual muffler setup that is already under it?
-Owen
**EDIT**
I am thinking of this muffler with the side exit:
(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/2/379//AC251062.jpg)
http://www.mooreparts.com/store/product/942/AC251062/ (http://www.mooreparts.com/store/product/942/AC251062/)
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either that or a stinger tucked under the car, showing about 3-4" at a 45* angle to the rear...
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well, no parts today >:(
hopefully they come in tomorrow, and mike will let me head over on sunday to do the install
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A race does sound like fun, but I need to be able to stop first lol. The 16v Master/booster are in, but the bleeders on the rear drums look like they were broken off long ago. I planned on swapping the rear disc from my Scirocco over, I guess I will be doing that sooner then expected. I do have the E30 rear end for the Scirocco, so there really is no reason to wait. I hope to have the diesel rear discs on before weeks end.
not trying to steal posts but... have you tried the rear disc brake swap without the 16v stuff? i've got the rear disc on my truck and i think that because i don't have the 16v stuff the brakes aren't as stiff as i'd like them.
sweet truck buy the way.. and sweeet write on by both of you.. i'm glad someone is not afraid to steep out of the box of idea's most people have... ha.. i do but then someone gets to me and i step back in.. ha keep up the good work and get it running
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not trying to steal posts but... have you tried the rear disc brake swap without the 16v stuff? i've got the rear disc on my truck and i think that because i don't have the 16v stuff the brakes aren't as stiff as i'd like them.
sweet truck buy the way.. and sweeet write on by both of you.. i'm glad someone is not afraid to steep out of the box of idea's most people have... ha.. i do but then someone gets to me and i step back in.. ha keep up the good work and get it running
I have installed the Master/Booster and pedal cluster from a 16v out of a wrecking yard. I will be taking the complete rear disc assembly from my Scirocco to install it on my pickup. It works out well since the BMW rear end has brakes and all, so my Scirocco will still be able to keep 4 wheel disc and I can upgrade my caddy at the same time.
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I am lucky enough to have one of the few early mk2 GTI's that came with factory rear disc, so no fiddling with getting a set to work right for me!
parts are in anchorage, just not at my house yet, so I should be installing them tomorrow!
-Owen
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well, I went out to the car today and installed the new injectors and fired it up!
still made a weird sound like a ball peen hammer on the valve cover.
I said hell with it, I'm gonna take it for a spin anyway!
the governor spring is still limiting the RPM way too much, making second too short to get going more than 10MPH, and third too tall to drive in, so second it is at 10MPH down the street!
after about a thousand feet, however, the coolant blew out of the radiator cap, and the temp gauge reached to the right.
so I turned around, and drove back and shut it down in the driveway(at 250* or more)
there is obviously an issue causing combustion gasses to enter the water jacket, so off comes the head.
the whole time I am taking the head off, I am wondering what it could be, the gasket is new and the block looked good, so it has to be the head.
after inspecting the head, it is obvious that the idiot that put the head on ::) should have had it resurfaced first, as there are some pretty prominent scratches that go from the combustion chamber into the gasket surface.
so I am going to contact a couple machine shops to see if they can resurface a diesel head without destroying it.
so now to the pics:
trying to get the god forsaken manifolds off!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240003.jpg)
the head surface
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240007.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240010.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240015.jpg)
the hole where the head used to be
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240016.jpg)
and remember that weird sound like a hammer on the valve cover?
guess what I found under the valve cover while taking off the head:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240017.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1240020.jpg)
looks like it got dropped in sometime the valve cover was off, it looks like it was getting into the valve springs and was getting shot back out when the valve was depressed.
does not look like anything was damaged by it, there are a few dents in the cast inside of the head from it bouncing off, but no lifter damage, no cam damage, no damage to the valve springs etc...
so I am going to move on and not worry about it too much.
so I am going to order a new had gasket, and pay some more money to get the head decked so it will actually seal next time.
-Owen
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make sure they knock the pre cups out and fly cut the holes the same amount they cut the head.
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but if it gets milled too much too fast, it gets milled at an angle that way, and basically ruins your head. if your machinist knows what hes doing, he can cut it slow and mill the cups down too, but if hes an idiot, hes gonna mill it crooked.
i would rather knock the cups out, cause most of the machinists around here are idiots.
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if the machinist is incapable of milling the head flat with the precups in it, what makes you think he will be able to do a good job cutting and replacing the precups?
if I don't trust a machinist to do the very basic(slowing down the mill) I am for sure not going to trust him with the more difficult things.
there is a shop in the valley that does marine machining as well as high performance two stroke stuff, so I am sure I can work out a way that they can do this head right.
I should have done this before the first install, but I was being rushed to get it finished and out of a garage, so I slapped the head on and hoped for the best.
-Owen
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so the head is only half the issue right now, and it will be dealt with soon enough.
the other problem is that the spring I found for the governor is not stiff enough, and it is the stiffest I can find locally.
I don't feel like ordering a spring to find out that it too is not the one I want, so how about this:
I take some wire and tie off a set of coils on the stock governor spring(effectively stiffening it) and see how it drives, I can change the number of coils tied off until it runs like I want it and then measure the spring tension to be sure I get spring the right stiffness.
any thoughts about doing this?
I really just need this thing to rev high enough to get it home, but right now it wont rev enough to make the jump from 2nd to 3rd.
also, would there be any benefit to putting some sort of sealing compound on the head gasket when I install the head?
-Owen
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just bought some ARP moly lube for the head studs when I put this thing back together.
it was a real pain to find someone who would ship the 1.5 OZ tube for LESS THAN $40!!!
everyone wanted to ship UPS next day air(with a brick in the box apparently)
but I finally found someone willing to ship USPS priority for $7(again with a lead blanket as packing apparently, but its better than $40) but they charged another $7 as a handling charge >:(
anyway, so 1.5 OZ of moly lube cost me $20.
more than I wanted to spend, but at least I have it now.
-Owen
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Shoulda ordered 2!!
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if the machinist is incapable of milling the head flat with the precups in it, what makes you think he will be able to do a good job cutting and replacing the precups?
if I don't trust a machinist to do the very basic(slowing down the mill) I am for sure not going to trust him with the more difficult things.
Got to agree with this as a former machinist. We calulate the cutting speed in feet (inches) per second, and it is different for each type of material. There is a referance manual for machinist with tables for material type, hardness, etc. It will show feet / sec and how much to cut at a time. Aluminum is cut about 4 times the speed of steel and you hog out up to 0.060" a pass with aluminum and only 0.005" - 0.010' or so with tool steel.
I never tried to cut mixed media so I would cut this as though it were all steel. The aluminum likely would not care about the slower speed. The more challenging aspect is the "interrupted cut" - this is very hard on the cutting incert and the mill will make a bit of noise doing so.
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Shoulda ordered 2!!
I ordered the 2.5 OZ tube with the re sealable cap as you should only need .5 OZ each time you install a head, it should last as long as I need it to.
and yeah, a machinist that cant read a table for cutting speed will get nowhere near a head of mine with the prechambers out.
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well I just talked to the machinist and he said he is not afraid of the diesel head!
he knew exactly what I meant when I expressed some concern about it being machined properly, and the price tag for machining and a wash is $80!
hopefully it will be done tonight and the gaskets/ARP moly arrive by friday to do the run out to the valley again!
-Owen
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just got a call from the machine shop, head is done!
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headgasket is in!
now I just need the ARP moly to show up...
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I read on here that edelbrock gasket goo/sealer/gaskacinch works good. I read about it a while ago and searched to find exactly what it's called but everyone called it something different.
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well, the damn ARP lube did not show up today, so I guess I will do with 30WT
anyone know for sure what the torque value is on 12mm ARP studs with 30WT? I want to say 120FT-LBS but I lost the piece of paper with the chart on it.
-Owen
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well, went out to mikes today, the head looked beautiful!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1300001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1300006.jpg)
set the valve lash(much easier on the bench than on the engine) installed my EGT probe:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1300004.jpg)
and the head went on.
about 5 hours after I arrived at mikes, the motor fired up!
took a few minutes of idling and adding coolant to get all the air out of the cooling system, and then I took a test drive out to Tesoro for some diesel.
it held oil pressure, held a steady 180* water temp(no coolant spewing out this time!) and pulled pretty hard!
it seems to rev to about 3500RPM(using a little math from MPH and gear) and makes about 10PSI of boost there.
EGT was about 300* at cruise, and if held to the floor they will go as high as 600* but no higher, so there is definitely room for lots more fuel.
I just received a set of springs to test on the governor, but I think I will wait until it is back home to do that.
so tomorrow I am going back out to do just what the motor does not want to do, drive on the highway for an hour at 65MPH.
it was too dark for pics/vids tonight, but there will be plenty taken tomorrow before it comes home!
-Owen
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Ive been following this thread, thats awesome that its now driving!
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i'm curious why you didn't put the egt in one of the collectors to at least get numbers from 2 different cylinders. But man those egts are low, i'm curious how this is going to turn out. I know a lot of gas super charger people are disappointed because turbos generally make more power. How ever i am thinking that since there is no set air/fuel ratio you have to go by and since you can crank up the fueling until the egt is at its peak, and there is no back pressure, that this maybe quite a powerful car. the anticipation is brutal haha.
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is your thermo lead very short or something? cause like trevor said, the collector would have been a better spot to read from. you are reading only what #4 cylinder is doing, cyls 1-3 could be burning down and the gauge would never know it. im sure it works just fine, and is probably a fine spot to mount it, but i never thought it was wise to just monitor a portion of your engine.
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I put the thermocouple there because where all four cylinders merge is so far downstream that there would be substantial temperature drop from what is really going on if I put it there, and all the places where two merge on the manifold would be in the way of the intake.
im not too worried about the reading being much different than reality, the intake is not going to bias to any cylinder in particular, and I can also look for smoke to tell me if the others are in meltdown heat(absolutley no smoke right now, even under full pedal)
there is lots of room to go up, I think where this motor is really going to shine is accelerating from a stop, and from a rolling start, as the boost is already there, there is no need to wait for it to fuel big, it is already scratching the tires in second, and the EGT's haven't even broken 1000* yet
so for this non turbocharged engine, what do you think would be a good target max EGT?
-Owen
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well, i bet you could run MORE egt's because you dont have a turbo to worry about melting. i would say you should at least be able to run 1400 or 1600 safely.
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that was my thought as well, just wondered what others thought.
good to hear, now I get to fiddle with the governor!
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well, i bet you could run MORE egt's because you dont have a turbo to worry about melting. i would say you should at least be able to run 1400 or 1600 safely.
You still don't want to run too much EGT, as that's an indicator of how hot your chambers are running. You have aluminum pistons in there that can melt, too... sustained high EGT runs can damage them.
Personally I'd stick with the same EGT ranges that are turbo-safe.
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well, got it running, and home!
took a bit of fiddling to get it started, as the starter had gotten some water in it apparently, as it would not turn the motor over at all, but a half an hour in a heated garage fixed that.
while I was waiting for the starter to thaw, I installed the drivers seat out of our mk3 parts jetta(took a little imaginative work with a grinder and a few bolts) and it is soooooo much better than the hammered seat that was in it.
once that was done, I fired it up(after fiddling with the timing a bit) and took it for a test drive!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1310001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1310002.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1310003.jpg)
some video here too!(super crappy camera vids, there will be better to come)
starting(not the first start, but still a nice sound to hear!)
[ (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/volkswagen%20videos/?action=view¤t=g60dieselridealong.flv)
and a ride along(pretty long, but shows how well it runs)
(http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/volkswagen%20videos/?action=view¤t=g60dieselstartup-1.flv)
the "blowby" on the windshield turned out to be oil leaking from the supercharger feed line getting caught by the wind, not a bad leak, but something I will have to attend to at some point.
it pulls hard, holds oil pressure, and the water temps are pretty steady at about 180*(more if you flog it, less coasting downhill, but not by much)
had to leave the hood off for the moment, because the supercharger wanted to smack it when accelerating, I think I can cut some of the reinforcement out of it above the supercharger(leaving just the hood skin) and that will make it clear.
then I got to abuse the fresh motor by driving it for an hour on the highway.
I did my best to vary engine speed and load, but there is only so much you can do in traffic that really wants to go 65MPH.
at 65MPH cruise, it made about 8PSI of boost, held water temps of just under 180*, oil pressure at 75PSI and EGT of 550*
flogging it up a long hill(foot to the floor) at 65MPH I saw 950* EGT, so I think it can survive lots more fuel.
no smoke out the exhaust all the way home, but the little oil leak covered the windshield pretty good by the time I got home.
it is clear, by watching the motor move around, that I am in need of new motor mounts, the passenger rear one is moving much more than I will like, but I can work on getting the details figured out now that it is back on the road!
-Owen
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I love it! Great job! Be interesting to see what it will do with more fuel and an intercooler. Though I love that nice easy intake plumbing.
The govenor mod should completely transform this car. Can't wait to see the results.
Brendan
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well, I have an intercooler, but I think that it is too big, now that there is a supercharger sticking through the core support. if i had a big bumper to hide it in I might be able to run it, but not my smalls.
as for the governor mod, having an uncaged spring, I cant simply shim the spring.
but I do have some new springs to swap out and see what they do.
at the same time, I don't want to rev too high, as the pump has a 12mm head, and I don't want to wreck it.
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well, now the motor has decided to be a pain to start.
it started great from warm yesterday(and I already fiddled with the timing yesterday to get enough advance)
but this morning it doesn't want to start!
crank and crank and crank, but nothing, not even trying.
it started for a moment, but I didn't give it enough throttle and it died, but no go on the next try.
I stopped before the battery was dead, but I am stumped, the glow plugs are working, its not even that cold!
headgasket is good, because it does not pressurize the coolant, it has some blowby, but nothing out of the ordinary for a fresh rebuild, and it ran soooo damn good yesterday.
aargh!
I guess I will wait until my wife comes home to jump it(get it spinning faster) and put a little space heater under it just to give it a running start.
god I hope I didn't glaze the cylinders too bad on the 50 mile highway trip home!
-Owen
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just put a heater under the hood, and will try again in an hour or so.
god I hope this thing is not a bear to start every morning.
BTW, does anyone know where to get the power cord for a block heater?
my block has a freeze plug heater, but no cord.
maybe it would be easier to start if I got that working.
-Owen
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www.partsplaceinc.com (http://www.partsplaceinc.com) has them for $30.00.
http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-detail.aspx?sku=3710 (http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-detail.aspx?sku=3710)
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www.partsplaceinc.com (http://www.partsplaceinc.com) has them for $30.00.
http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-detail.aspx?sku=3710 (http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-detail.aspx?sku=3710)
thats not a bad price.
another thing tindias, are you located in washington state? if so, we should meet up one of these days, i would love to see your supercharged ride...
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well, I got it started finally.
let it sit overnight with a battery charger and a heater under the hood, still took more cranking than I would like, but it fired up. once it is warm it restarts real quick, so I am happy to think that it is poor cold compression due to a recent rebuild and that it will get better with time(I may be mislead here, but at least I am content)
the oil feed line for the supercharger is leaking(a very small amount) right where the brake line connects to the supercharger, I think this is due to the adapter I used being not quite the right one(I think its for the wrong kind of flare) so I will be heading down to the parker store soon to get the right one
here is the leaking fitting:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020003.jpg)
for the moment, to keep oil off my windshield(the leaking oil gets caught by the wind and thrown EVERYWHERE) I wrapped the leaking fitting in some paper towels and tape, which should both keep the oil in one place and tell me how bad the leak really is.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020004.jpg)
another curious thing is that the serp belt is slipping at idle, but stops when the motor is revved up, it is super annoying, and not doing my belt any favors, here you can see the belt dust made from slipping so much all over the charger bracket
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020002.jpg)
other than that though, it is very fun to drive.
the clutch will take some getting used to, it is hard to start from a stop without either squealing the tires, or stalling the motor(kind of a pain in parking lots) but not impossible, and I will get better with it the more I drive it.
I pulled the top off the boost aneroid, and spun the star wheel down as far as it would go, and put the pin in the most aggressive position, to make the most out of the boost I am making.
it certainly made a difference! more power, and the EGT's come up faster(but still stay below 700* on a hard pull)
still no smoke, and with EGT's like that I can do more fuel, but I will get around to that later.
-Owen
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over on the vortex there is some concern about the oil feed to the supercharger breaking from vibration since it is a rigid line and not a flexible one.
I thought that since it is attached at both ends to something that moves the same it would be fine.
like the turbo oil feeds are solid, and I have never seen one of those break from vibration.
any thoughts?
-Owen
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I thought that since it is attached at both ends to something that moves the same it would be fine.
like the turbo oil feeds are solid, and I have never seen one of those break from vibration.
any thoughts?
-Owen
Its mass is different to the solid piece (engineblock?) it is attached too, so it has a different 'reciprocating mass' not sure if thats thee right expresion? So it could wave around quite wildly, in contrast the turbo feeds are kept nice and tight to the block with clamps so don't have this problem, get it tied down!
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ok, so I have heard about issues with revving a pump with a 12mm head to high hurting it.
the cummins pump I have on my motor has a 12mm head on it, so I was wondering what is the highest I should rev it for fear of damaging the internals of the pump.
right now it comes just shy of 4000RPM, how much higher can I go?
-Owen
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resonant frequency. but i don't think thats what caused it, it probably just needed more mounting. no biggie tho.
maybe search and see where people were having problems with over revving? i'd think ud be looking for prettty high revs, atleast 5500
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I have read a few times here about issues with a 12mm pump head above 4000-ish RPM issues where the rollers lose contact with the camplate.
most of this is in with the Mtdi folks, so I dont know how much it applies to me, but my pump was originally for a tdi motor so...
-Owen
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Cool build.
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thanks, its still a real bear to start, I just tried to get it running a few minutes ago and ran the battery down before it fired up.
I think my cheap glow plugs are part of the problem(might be burned out) but I will check for that tomorrow.
it starts pretty quick once it is warmed up, but again not as fast as I would like.
I think timing might be part of it, but not being a VW pump the timing spec is fairly useless.
if I get it running again tomorrow I might fiddle with the timing again and see if I can get it to start easier.
-Owen
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Too retarded of timing made mine hard to start, with the GP's hot/engine cold it wasn't too bad but if it was just warm enough for the GP's to stay off it would crank forever without starting.
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well, I have the glow plugs run off a switch on the dash, and it is a bear and a half to start cold while WORKING the glowplugs.
-
for the moment, to keep oil off my windshield(the leaking oil gets caught by the wind and thrown EVERYWHERE) I wrapped the leaking fitting in some paper towels and tape, which should both keep the oil in one place and tell me how bad the leak really is.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020004.jpg)
-Owen
Nice car tampon...lol :-X :-X ;D
Nice work it's great to finally get them running...and working bugs out is all part of it.. no big deal...I'm STILL working the bugs outta my build. 8)
keep it up!
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well, I advanced the timing until it got hard to start hot, then I backed it out until it started easier.
hoping that it will help cold starts, as part of my issue (thanks for pointing this out andrew) is that the cummins pump has no cold start advance.
I could pull the pump and retrofit a vw cold start advance mechanism, but it would be far too much work at this point.
andrew also recommended swapping the cummins advance spring for a vw one, but as you can see in this picture, getting it out would mean pulling the pump(because the charger bracket is so close) so I will wait on that too.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2050021.jpg)
also while playing with the timing, I noticed that the rear mounting bolt on the injection pump(the one under the injection lines) had vibrated out, and when tightening the lower bolt on the front of the pump(the stud and nut one) it stripped the treads! >:(
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2050024.jpg)
so I need to go out and get some more nuts/bolts to fix them before I drive it anywhere.
even now, however, starting from cold(and hot, just not as bad) it sounds like it is trying to run(not rough like its one cylinder, just not fast enough to keep going) for a while before it fires up
if I stop the starter during this it will die, but if I keep it turning after a few seconds it will fire up.
strange.
also I noticed a few air bubbles in my fuel line after it was running, which might be part of the problem, but it runs so darned good once it starts, im not sure(air in the fuel would make it run like garbage even after start no?)
anyway, got the hood back on, and am fixing my good heater to stick under it(the one there now does not put out as much heat) might even permanently attach it(there is a great space on the passenger frame horn for it to sit)
any pointers or help would be great.
thanks,
-Owen
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i recently stripped the threads on my pump as well. mine was the nut welded into the pump bracket. a bit more involved to repair haha
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alright, I talked to my dad(long time marine diesel mechanic) and I think I have figured it out.
the timing is too advanced.
when I advanced the timing(as it is the old standard for hard to start motors) and it actually got harder to start, retard it a bit and its easier.
problem is, it is as retarded as the pump will turn in the slots and it is still hard to start.
(I did set the timing belt one tooth off to make the pump clear the N/A injection lines)
so I plan on setting the timing belt over one tooth so I can get the pump farther retarded and see if that helps.
I am also getting a new block heater and battery blanket just to cover all my bases.
while I have the injection pump off to skip the timing belt and fix the stripped bolt I will swap out the advance spring too.
-Owen
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nope, cant hear individual cranking pulses, when I start to I know I have run the battery down enough to put the charger on and try again later.
its a new starter with a new battery and new cables that make good contact, I don't think cranking speed is my issue really.
-Owen
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(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2050021.jpg)
it hopefully is old but there is some anitfreeze sitting on the waterpump housing that you might want to check out while you have the pump off.
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no antifreeze, the "moisture" is oil from the charger feed line, and it looks a little green down there because the block is painted green.
the motor has gone through about a quart of oil in the past 100 miles.
I think most of it is blowby going out the block breather(where the vac pump used to return to the block)
I am planning to get a catch can together so I can track how much oil is leaving in the blowby.
-Owen
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turned into a blizzard here, so the car will have to wait until the weather clears up to work on it.
damn.
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here is the leaking fitting:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020003.jpg)
for the moment, to keep oil off my windshield(the leaking oil gets caught by the wind and thrown EVERYWHERE) I wrapped the leaking fitting in some paper towels and tape, which should both keep the oil in one place and tell me how bad the leak really is.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020004.jpg)
If you want i can send you the OEM g60 feedline for a few bucks, comes with the banjo bolts and the oem "T". Also where is your feed coming from? filter housing or the side of the head? the g60 runs on low pressure from the side of the head at about 4psi and when the engine is running it basically drips out of the line..
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how much is a few bucks?
I looked for one while I was putting the motor together, but everyone wanted far too much money for one.
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I might have a line on a couple of clutched alternator pulleys, and I was wondering, would there be any benefit to installing one on the supercharger?(privided it fits and lines up of course)
would it help keep from munching the crank snout?(theoretically it should yes?)
if it does fit and work, it would be another good way to install a smaller diameter pulley on the charger(to increase boost) for less than the premium all the aftermarket companies want.
-Owen
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would it help keep from munching the crank snout?(theoretically it should yes?)
-Owen
I like the idea of having it clutched, but it think this is more likely to cause crank nose issues than having the 'charger run all hte time.
reason is, when everyhting is in steady state, there is constant torque applied through the pulley coupling to the crank nose (assuming the engine runs relatively smoothly). Times when you have very large load on the crank nose are when there is changing toqure - particularly the application of toruqe (as opposed to reduction). there is a very large (maximum possible with whatever you are driving) torque applied through each part of the system when the load is accelerated from standstill. Clutched pulleys take up VERY fast - alsmost instantly - so the load of driving the supercharger is applied over a very short period of time.
An analogy i would make would be as if you were turning a large flywheel on a small shaft with your hands, from stopped. if you want to accelerate the flywheel quickly, (or to a high velocity in a short period of time, its the same thing) you would need to grip the shaft very tightly, and even then you may slip. On the other hand, if you accelerate it slowly, you may use less grip strength, and it is less likely to slip. Also, once the flywheel is going the speed you want it to, it takes little effort to keep it going at that speed.
It is forthis reason that on my AAZ, i try not to swithc the a/c on and off too often - either leave it on, or leave it off. also, i usually clutch in before switching the a/c on and off whilst driving, because there will be far less stress on the crank nose if the load is taken up to only 1000rpm so quickly, rather that a 3000rpm cruise.
I hope this makes sense :-)
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how much is a few bucks?
I looked for one while I was putting the motor together, but everyone wanted far too much money for one.
I can send it to you for $25 shipped.
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I think by "clutched alternator pulley" he means the one-way clutched assemblies used to let the alternator/what have you "overrun" when you suddenly drop engine RPMs, reducing the back and forth shock on the crank nose.
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that is precisely what I was referring to, I think the shock load from acceleration would be small, as the supercharger would always be turning at least as fast as the motor.
there would never be a time that it is asked to accelerate the supercharger large RPM values from a stop.
the idea was, like the TDI alternator, to keep the load on the crank noze to one direction, instead of back and forth.
another question.
I have never actually played with a clutched alternator pulley, do you guys think it would be robust enough to take the loads of turning a supercharger?
the alternators load is minimal, I just wonder if if would be too much to ask of the pawls to drive the supercharger?
-Owen
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another question.
I have never actually played with a clutched alternator pulley, do you guys think it would be robust enough to take the loads of turning a supercharger?
the alternators load is minimal, I just wonder if if would be too much to ask of the pawls to drive the supercharger?
Hmmm... good question.
I think I've seen one-way alternator pulleys for alt capacities of 200+ amps... @ 14v that's 2.8Kw, or ~3.8hp. Add in some for the efficiency of the system (75%, say) and you're up to a 5hp load at full charging output, then go from there with margins of safety and fudge factors. Say a minimum of 6hp load rating, probably more like 7-8?
Of course, I don't know what sort of power the supercharger is consuming to be driven...
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I think I've seen one-way alternator pulleys for alt capacities of 200+ amps... @ 14v that's 2.8Kw, or ~3.8hp. Add in some for the efficiency of the system (75%, say) and you're up to a 5hp load at full charging output, then go from there with margins of safety and fudge factors. Say a minimum of 6hp load rating, probably more like 7-8?
Of course, I don't know what sort of power the supercharger is consuming to be driven...
A 200a alternator is about 2900 watts = about 4 hp
The supercharger takes 10% - 20% of your HP to drive it http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm)
So if it takes you from 100 hp to 140 hp, you'll be looking at 14 - 28 hp used to drive it. That's why they have a HD belt, usually cogged.
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the G60 takes remarkably little to spin, even at higher boost.
it uses a serp belt to drive it, and I have a 5 rib on it right not with no issues.
I would doubt if it took more than 10HP to turn it really.
if I can get them for as cheap as I think I can, I might just try it out and report back.
-Owen
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the G60 takes remarkably little to spin, even at higher boost.
10 hp ? I guess only a dyno will tell (along with precise fuel consumption) before and after installing the supercharger. 7% parasitic drag would be amazing and surprising:-)
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well, at the moment boost is low, so it does not take much(as it is not working hard)
how much power can a 5-rib serp belt transfer?
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well, at the moment boost is low, so it does not take much(as it is not working hard)
how much power can a 5-rib serp belt transfer?
Very complicated answer... depends on what else it is running and how it is configured http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V36-4P3M811-1&_user=613487&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1200388410&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000032038&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=613487&md5=9cd4e64deb7efc570eb1c2f7904e74ba (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V36-4P3M811-1&_user=613487&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1200388410&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000032038&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=613487&md5=9cd4e64deb7efc570eb1c2f7904e74ba)
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darn, I was hoping there would be a simple answer like the "v-belts will transfer about 5HP"
nothing is ever easy.
I am tempted to try it and hope that there was a sizable safety margin worked into the pulley.
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probably true, there is very little inertia in the charger itself(oscillating mass is made of magnesium)
and under boost, I suppose the resistance would keep it from over-running pretty well anyway.
now all I need to do is find a smaller pulley for the charger that I can actually afford...
-Owen
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I think realistically all of this is going to have to wait until after my taxes come back anyway, I am down to the bottom of the barrel.
hopefully tomorrow I can get the timing moved one tooth so I can start driving it more regularly.
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I have one too, but the charger uses a keyway, so...
I was hoping that since the clutched pulley utilizes the treads to attach that it would go in the charger without needing the keyway.
-Owen
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well, it looks like the max RPM for a 12mm pump head I was looking at was for 5 cyl pumps, which means that a 4cyl pump should be fine to spin to somewhere in the 6500RPM range
not that I intend to take it that high very often, but it is good to know that there is a margin of safety to work with.
hopefully this afternoon I will get a chance to skip the timing a tooth and install the vw advance spring.
-Owen
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well, I got the timing sorted(kinda, I need to advance it a tiny bit, but the injection lines are in the way)
it starts a little hard, but much better.
no longer do I have to crank it over and over again, now I cycle the glowplugs, put my foot in it and crank it for 5-10 seconds and it starts!
I need to keep my foot in it a bit for another ten seconds to keep it from dying again, but thats no problem really.
it drives about the same, no smoke(even at full pedal) but the EGT's are up(not a surprise really) to 250@idle, 500@cruise(55MPH) and about 800 max/WOT
I took it for a cruise and noticed that the water temp comes up FAST, like needle moving before I am out of the neighborhood, and up to 180* within a mile and a half.
but the temps are stable at 180* once they get there, so I am not too worried.
cruised down to schmucks,(on the highway for a bit) and got some belt dressing.
I sprayed it on the serp belt, and guess what? thats right the squeal is gone!
now that injection rattle is down a bit(from retarding the timing) and the belt squeal is gone(as well as the slip at high RPM) I can hear the heavenly sounds the charger is making!
it is clearest during de-acceleration in gear, when the motor is still spinning fast, but the injection and exhaust noise is low.
it is a very unique sound, and I like it! not at all like the shrill whine of an eaton, much lower and more throaty.
I have the biggest grin, now I can drive it and not worry about it firing back up when I want to go home!
-Owen
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add more fuel please
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will do, the plan is to install one of the stiffer springs that were so kindly sent to me and see what they will do for fueling.
also, anyone have a spare block off plate for the block(where the diaphragm vacuum pump returns to)?
I went to a vane style pump, but the block "breather" is pushing out LOTS of oil(as it does not have the baffle that the valve cover does)
I have gone through a quart of oil already in less than 100 miles.
any motor with a vane pump on it from the factory should have the proper blockoff plate.
anyone want to be kind and send me one from the junk block they have sitting in their barn?
-Owen
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i think i have one some where, if i can find it soon enough i'll send it to you. but it will be a couple days till i get to my garage and i have no idea where it is at all. honestly if i were you i would add a hose and T that vent in to the valve cover vent. On my old rabbit it would blow all kinds of oil out of the breather (and cause run away problems) until i added the older vent plate and Teed it into the rest of the breather system, then i never ever had problem with run aways or oil consumption.
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I wouldn't mind running it(more venting is better) but I dont like ho much oil is in the gasses coming out.
the valve cover has a baffle to keep the oil vapor in the motor, but the block breather does not, so any oil that the crank slings just heads out.
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well, I got it running! and well!
I swapped out the old governor spring
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100006.jpg)
for a new one
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100011.jpg)
here they are side by side
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100007.jpg)
as you can see here the springs ends were looped too far, keeping me from hooking the lever on it
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100002.jpg)
so I had to trim them a bit, like this
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100010.jpg)
it is sooooo much more fun to drive now!
it starts faster, idles better, and the throttle is less twitchy!
it makes unholy amounts of smoke at full throttle(way too much, I will dial it back a bit) and burns the tires off right through fourth gear(roads are still crappy, but still)
and Holy Understeer Batman! its a handful to drive!
time for more boost!
its making about 10PSI max right now(about 5-8PSI under most driving conditions) so it is officially time for a 52mm pulley(and 20-ish PSI)
-Owen
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oh, and it was this spring
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2100003.jpg)
thanks andrew!
I plan on trying the other two out this weekend as well to see how they compare.
-Owen
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I took it to 4500RPM, but power trailed off a bit there so I shifted.
I think it will easily get to 5000+, but I will check better this weekend when I can stretch its legs on the highway.
-Owen
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ok, so to turn 5500RPM( a good target for max I think) the car would be going 50MPH in second.
so next time I go out I will stick it in second and see how fast it will really go(I chickened out at 40 in second today)
that should give me the info I need to plug into the trans calculator and figure out max rpm.
either way, it makes sooo much power below 4000RPM, that I dont think I will ever really take it above that, except to go really stupid fast in a straight line (5500RPM in fifth is like 120MPH.)
I will report back!
-Owen
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I have decided on a name for my GTI(or at least the monster under the hood)
the encyclopedia britannica defines "Ifrit" as an infernal creature of smoke from arabic mythology.
right now I cant think of a more fitting title, so as of this evening the diesel G60 is Ifrit.
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Any idea why it's shoving so much gas out the vents? At least, that's how I'm reading your posts about the venting issues?
-
new driving movies
when is the big turbo going on?
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well, the turbo will wait until I have more than $200 to my name.
the spring has really changed the motor from a decent putter to a real beast!
I cannot thank you enough for letting me try it out, it really is just the ticket.
as for the vent on the block, its not that it is pushing too much blowby out(there is a good bit as the rings are new and have not seated all the way) but that the gasses coming out are heavily laden with oil.
the blowby coming out the valve cover(that goes through the baffles) is pretty clean, you can put your hand by the vent and it will stay clean, whereas if you put your hand by the block breather it will get covered in oil in short order.
-Owen
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ok, this is great, I feel awesome!
I went out this morning to a cold car(no block heater or space heater under the hood last night) I wanted to see how it would do on a real cold start now that I have the timing etc. sorted.
I gave it 15 seconds of glow plug, mashed the throttle, and it fired!
lots of black smoke came out from the seams around the hood(still need to fix the leak in my downpipe) and I had to keep my foot in it a bit, but no struggling to get it running!
this is the first time that I have not had to beat on my diesel on a cold winter morning to get it up and running!
that, and the charger just sounds so good!
I probably look like an idiot when I am driving, because I have a huge grin even just sitting in traffic!
-Owen
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58mm pulley has been purchased!
now all I need to do is figure out my intercooler/water sprayer.
need to find a new water/meth nozzle as I misplaced mine :(
-
just purchased three water/meth nozzles and an intercooler coupler that has three bungs welded in it.
going to run a two stage system.
the first stage will be triggered by boost pressure(at about 1/2 of my max pressure, whatever that turns out to be)
and will simply turn the pump on
and the second will be triggered by EGT's(thinking about 1100*)
will be controlled by a solenoid
one nozzle for stage one, and two for stage two(so three all together for high boost and high EGT situations)
all I need to do now is figure out how to rig an idle switch so I dont have it spraying during de-acceleration in gear
-Owen
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Hey is it possible to switch a normal IP over to the cummins gov spring instead of the goofy setup they usually have? It seems like it would drive nicer.....I think ;D.
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you mean put an uncaged governor setup in a VW pump?
should be possible, if you had a donor pump for all the parts.
-Owen
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you mean put an uncaged governor setup in a VW pump?
should be possible, if you had a donor pump for all the parts.
-Owen
That's my main problem ::), I didn't know if it'd work to just remove the cage from the shaft and hook a spring to it and the......whatever it's called......the thing that the other end of the spring capsule now hooks to ::).
P.S. Very nice build BTW!!!
-
just purchased three water/meth nozzles and an intercooler coupler that has three bungs welded in it.
going to run a two stage system.
the first stage will be triggered by boost pressure(at about 1/2 of my max pressure, whatever that turns out to be)
and will simply turn the pump on
and the second will be triggered by EGT's(thinking about 1100*)
will be controlled by a solenoid
one nozzle for stage one, and two for stage two(so three all together for high boost and high EGT situations)
all I need to do now is figure out how to rig an idle switch so I dont have it spraying during de-acceleration in gear
-Owen
have you ever seen the setup that just uses the boost blowing into a sealed container in order to push the meth into the intake system? i dont think this would work with your setup i dunno if you can spray water/meth into a g60
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Im not sure I would be comfortable pushing water through the G60, it relies on grease inside of it to make a good seal, I could see it turning into peanut butter really quick.
as for the modifying a caged setup to uncaged, I dint think it would be so simple, the uncaged spring uses a different idle spring holder as well as throttle shaft.
the oil feed to the supercharger is leaking way too much, I am afraid that it is starting to crack from the vibration.
I have bought a stock feed line, but it hasn't come yet.
I need a cheap temporary alternative to the brake line I am currently using.
and I need it soon as I have to drive an hour out to the valley tomorrow morning to get some parts.
I am thinking that I could head over to napa and get a pair of grease gun flex hoses to put on either end of the hard line.
it probably wouldn't stand up to the pressure/heat well for long, but it might get me through until the stock line comes in.
any thoughts?
-Owen
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well, I got and installed two bits of grease gun line on either end of a shorter piece of brake line.
another issue I found is that one of the previous owners tightened the banjo fitting on the charger too much and damaged the threads.
it was hard to get enough torque on it to seal the copper washer without pulling the threads right out of it.
I got it to hold, but I am not sure if it will hold next time.
do you think I could drill it out and tap it a size larger?
it is holding oil pressure without leaking now, but it may not for long.
-Owen
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if your careful, maybe you can replace it with a riser to screw in there and seal it in with some red threadlocker, then screw your oil line into the top of the new riser forever more. that way you dont have to remove it again.
well, I got and installed two bits of grease gun line on either end of a shorter piece of brake line.
another issue I found is that one of the previous owners tightened the banjo fitting on the charger too much and damaged the threads.
it was hard to get enough torque on it to seal the copper washer without pulling the threads right out of it.
I got it to hold, but I am not sure if it will hold next time.
do you think I could drill it out and tap it a size larger?
it is holding oil pressure without leaking now, but it may not for long.
-Owen
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thats a thought, I might see what the parker store has like that...
-
well, drove out to the valley today, good hour drive, no surprises.
oil pressure got down to about 50PSI cruise at 65MPH, (lowest I have ever seen it go) but the oil got hotter than usual, so I am not too worried.
pulled the idle switch and lower timing cover off the car at the yard(lying in the snow grrrr...) and went to pay.
owner said $20 for the parts, and I handed him a 50.
he didnt have change, so he gave me the parts for free! ;D
the trip home, water temps got a little higher than I wanted(not above 220*) so I had to baby it on some of the big hills. I think that this radiator is going to be too small for the summer time, I might get one of the dual pass honda radiators to swap in when the weather gets warmer.
about 5 mins from town, the boost trails off, not completely, but to about 1/2 of what it should be, and a shrill whine comes up.
oh crap, it must be the charger...
as I pull into town the car starts to buck and smoke alot(blue) and dies.
at this point my mind is going to bad places, blown charger dumping oil into the intake killing the motor, damn.
I got it started again(not easy) and limp it to a parking lot where it bucks, smokes and dies again.
no restart this time, not even a chance.
I pop the hood, and cant find anything wrong.
I opened the boost bypass to see if there is oil in the intake, its bone dry.
check the oil, still good.
belts are intact and still tight enough.
crank pulley is solid(no wobble, looseness)
WTF?
so I crank it over(with the boost bypass still open) and it starts right up!
I tentatively gat back in traffic, and drive it home.
no issues(no boost either, but the bypass was open) no shrill squeal, nothing.
when I get it home, I leave it idle and pop the hood.
look around, fiddle a little and find that the loss of boost is due to the idle screw on the G60 throttle body rattling out and falling into oblivion. a little more tinkering and I figured out that the shrill squeal was the air rushing out of the hole where the idle screw used to be.
so crisis averted, the charger is fine.
but that still does not explain the bucking, smoking and dying. or why it went away after sitting for five minutes( I didnt do anything to the motor during that time other than look at it.
any ideas?
-Owen
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i'm scared with you. was ur lda maybe getting more boost than the engine
-
not sure how, it is has a single(fairly large diameter) line right from the intake manifold.
and even if it was, it wouldn't make any difference below half pedal(where I was when it started bucking)
I had to keep my foot in it to keep it running the little bit it would, like it dropped a couple cylinders, and if I gave it enough fuel the other ones would keep it going.
but why would it do it for a while, and then just stop?
-
had a chat with my grandpa, and he thinks it sounds like stuck injectors from bad fuel that cleared themselves.
but we both agreed that anything in the fuel that would stick an injector should be caught by the fuel filter.
the filter I have on now, is a genuine bosch one with less than a tank of fuel through it, so...
could I have a bad filter from the factory?
-
had a chat with my grandpa, and he thinks it sounds like stuck injectors from bad fuel that cleared themselves.
but we both agreed that anything in the fuel that would stick an injector should be caught by the fuel filter.
the filter I have on now, is a genuine bosch one with less than a tank of fuel through it, so...
could I have a bad filter from the factory?
Could be something that jogged loose in the pump; it had been stored for a while, correct? And bought used? Who knows how the PO maintained their truck/equipment... or what it picked up in storage.
-
pump was brand new, never installed.
it still had the factory plugs on all the ports.
of course it is possible some dirt/dust got in it while I had the top off to do the governor spring, but I was very careful to keep everything near it clean.
I would expect any issues due to dirt in the pump to come up sooner though?
-
oop! you ninja'd me!
-
actually, come to think about it, there could have been some adhesive residue left on the spring from the ID stickers they came in with.
maybe dissolved by the diesel and came off, gumming up a couple injectors for a bit.
-
well, just fired it up and took it for a little drive(about a mile)
it started OK, but had an intermittent hesitation, like an injector was sticking for a moment.
not bad enough to make it hard to drive, just enough to notice.
the hesitation went away after about 1/2 mile.
I am going to guess that there was some adhesive residue on the new governor spring from the ID sticker.
this residue got semi dissolved by the diesel fuel and fell off.
these little globby bits(have to have been really small, as I didn't see any adhesive on the spring) got out into the injectors and stuck them for a bit until they passed.
I am going to take short trips to confirm that it is over before heading out very far again.
-Owen
-
well, the exhaust leak needs to be fixed bad.
I have looked into fixing the downpipe, but it would require removing it, and then fixing it and I cant afford any more downtime.
I need a solution that can be done in an afternoon.
so I went searching for parts and found a good(with pics to prove it) OBX header for $120 shipped.
I am gonna snag it, install it and then repair the TT downpipe for future use/sale.
probably going to use the exhaust on the car now, until I decide it is not loud enough...
-
well, took the GTI out for a drive today, still have some cylinders missing a bit when cold, but it clears up in a mile or so of driving.
I got the boost leak fixed and closed the boost bypass again, I forgot how much of a dog an N/A diesel is, but the power difference between boost and no boost is really incredible(and thats just 10PSI, I can only imagine what 20+ is going to be like)
I did some math for the water/meth injection system, and with both stages on, I will get five minutes of spray per gallon of fluid.
on the first stage I will get 15 minutes of spray per gallon of fluid.
which seems like not alot, but realistically as much as I will be at WOT in heavy boost I think it will do just fine(I might have to bring a couple extra gallons of fluid to the cruises though)
-Owen
-
well, the smaller charger pulley and all my water/meth goodies should be here today.
one thing that is going to be a challenge though is that the smaller pulley is going to make the belt from the charger to the crank pulleys touch the idler in the middle.
as you can see clearance is tight as it is right now, and a smaller charger pulley will surely make it touch there
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2020002.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/PC050008.jpg)
I'm not sure what to do, a smaller idler pulley seems the obvious choice, but I'm not sure where to get one, and adding another idler to lift the belt on top to clear is an option, but I would like to not add any complexity to the belt system, as there is plenty that can go wrong with it as it is(and it has seemingly worked fine thus far)
any thoughts on what I could do to remedy this?
-Owen
-
well, some fellows over on the vortex were very helpful, and I have with thier help decided to run the belt like this:
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3118/beltu.png)
should get rid of all my rubbing issues, and it shortens the length of belt that is unsupported going back to the crank, which will help keep it from flapping around so bad.
-Owen
-
Any chance of adding the clutched alternator pulley while you're at it? That will really help in the "flapping" department, and destress your crank sprocket as well.
-
I intend to do that when I can get my hands on one of the pulleys for cheapish(or after my taxes come back)
it is in my list either way...
-
it is in my list
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/up1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/up1.jpg)
-
just found a fellow on Ebay selling them for $45 plus shipping, but he has UPS listed as his shipper which puts shipping at $30.
I sent him an email asking if he would ship USPS to bring that cost down(to no more than $6 hopefully)
the other cool thing about going with the clutched pulley is it will allow me to go to a 6-rib belt!
-
the slipping problems were due to it loosening itself(been fixed) and chewing the belt surface up.
I have fixed the loosening problems, and a little belt dressing got it to grab better, and stop slipping.
I do plan on going six rib when I can, but the five seems to work for now.
I am looking into having an adapter(for the alternator offset difference) machined to replace the crappy one I welded up out of pipe, so that the alternator pulley is more in line with the others soon as well.
-Owen
-
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Two_moving_spirals_scroll_pump.gif)
MIND=BLOWN
-
Since you need to add an idler on the bottom, now would be a perfect time to use an automatic tensioner.
-
not sure I follow you there, I have an idler on the bottom, a timing belt tensioner.
it makes the belt wrap on the water pump better and allows me to tension the belt.
what "automatic tensioner" are you referring to?
-
An automatic tensioner is a spring loaded idler that provides consistent tension that can make up for stretching of the belt.
(http://shop.oreillyauto.com/product_images/img/faa/45864.jpg)(http://shop.oreillyauto.com/product_images/img/faa/45884.jpg)
-
Since you need to add an idler on the bottom, now would be a perfect time to use an automatic tensioner.
X2.....if you can find one that's cheap and fits right, it would sure be handy. ;D
-
realistically, installing one of those would be much more work than it is worth.
I have no problem tensioning the belt with the TB tensioner, so I think I will leave it where it is.
-Owen
-
realistically, installing one of those would be much more work than it is worth.
Huh? Whats hard about making a bracket with two holes?
-
meh, the belt works fine the way it is, and I am lazy when it comes to thins that already work.
stupid mail not being delivered on presidents day, now I have to wait until wednesday to install the goodies(I have classes all day tomorrow)
-Owen
-
well, I have been driving it around some more and all seems to be good.
whatever made it stall has passed(my dad thinks it was the last bit of air working its way out)
it still misses a little when cold, but I think that is mostly because it has no cold start timing advance, and it is not bad enough to make it hard to drive, I just have to keep my foot in it a little right at startup.
I am getting used to the uncaged governor in a car(I have driven them in trucks lots, but never in a car) and it really does act just like a truck. starting out there is no need for throttle, as the governor will add fuel as you clutch out.
and it will accelerate to whatever RPM you have your foot at and then just stop, not like a gasser(or caged governor) that 3/4 pedal is 3/4 throttle, but more like full throttle until 3/4 of redline and then just cruise.
also when the RPM's are high, like cruising on the highway, the throttle under that RPM(like at 3500RPM the first half of the pedal travel) does nothing, and then it starts to accelerate after that.
it takes some time to get used to and to not automatically put my foot in it more on a hill(there is no need to as it just throttles up to keep speed)
I really like it, just different.
-Owen
-
well, I just heard back about the shipping on the clutched pulleys, and I can get them for $44 plus $9 shipping!
any one else need one?
-Owen
-
An automatic tensioner is a spring loaded idler that provides consistent tension that can make up for stretching of the belt.
I don't think you will be happy with the setup without the auto tensioner - Remember, there are 2 types of stretch and your manual adjustments can only compensate for one of them (The stretch that happens over time from the load) - the second is the stretch from acceleration. This one requires the auto tensioner. If you looked at the formula for what a belt can do, the tension on it is a factor, so if its not constant, you'll have shorter like.
-
I might look into an auto tensioner, but for the moment(as I am tight on time I can work on the car) I will stay with the manual adjustments.
-
got some goodies for the motor in the mail today!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170022-1.jpg)
the new 58mm charger pulley, a six rib pulley for the alternator, a diesel timing belt tensioner(the gasser one I hva tensioning the belt now is too narrow for a six rib belt), my new lower timing cover, the new water/meth nozzles, and a coupler to mount them in the intake.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170024.jpg)
also, I got the idle switch and bracket
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2120002.jpg)
I bought a new shorter six rib belt, just need to go pick it up later today.
now I need to find a place with an impact(to swap the alt pulleys) where I can swap everything over...
-Owen
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well, I went and got the belt, and decided to try and install the smaller pulley.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170002.jpg)
while I was at it I installed the lower timing cover
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170005.jpg)
it turns out, however, that the six rib pulley I have for the alt is not only wider, but has more offset as well
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170003.jpg)
so I need to remake the offset adapter for the alt to make up for this difference.
the one I made up was ugly and imperfect, and allowed some misalignment in the pulleys.
my tax refund just came in today, so I think I will go talk to the local machinist and have him make me one,
I took all the necessary measurements already, so it should be an easy thing for them to make for me.
so, slightly defeated, I left the car looking like this
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2170004.jpg)
hopefully I can get this done on friday/saturday and be able to drive it again next week.
-Owen
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well, I drew up a plan for the alt adapter for the machinist, should be pretty easy to have them make up.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/altadapter-Layout1.jpg)
I will take one of the bolts I will be using so they can tailor the adapter to fit them perfectly(my measuring tools are precise, but theirs are better)
-Owen
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oh, and I think I figured out my chugging and dying issue, it started doing it again whenever I accelerated or turned sharply, filled her up with fresh diesel(took 11 gallons) and all issues gone! ;D
the gauge showed 1/4 when it took 11 gallons, so I just need to remember that it is not particularly accurate
-Owen
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the gauge showed 1/4 when it took 11 gallons, so I just need to remember that it is not particularly accurate
Pull your in-tank pickup and make sure you don't have any cracks around that level. Even a small break will let you suck air if it's uncovered, which could be your problem.
-
I think MK1 GTIs had a similar problem with the fuel tank/pickup-pipe when turning hard left or something. Would cause the car to run lean and even stall.
-
yeah, the mk1 had those issues, but the mk2 supposedly didnt.
I think it is just that the aftermarket gauge is not very accurate, the in tank pump and pickup looked good when I had then out, but who knows...
-
I think MK1 GTIs had a similar problem with the fuel tank/pickup-pipe when turning hard left or something. Would cause the car to run lean and even stall.
It was the mk1 cabriolets that had that issue.
-
Yeah, MK1 for sure. I had a Rabbit that when turned hard to the right, it would chugg if the tank was lower than 1/2.
-
I have scrapped the idea of using the alt I have and having a spacer machined in favor of a 16V alt and G60 alt pulley.
I have bought them and hopefully they will come in the mail soon.
I'm gonna put the car back together with the old parts tomorrow so I can drive it to school next week, and then do the swap next weekend when I have all the right parts.
-Owen
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In Finland we have quite different project going.Base engine is na polo 1.9d.Turbochargers is Eaton M45 and holset He221w.
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/15022010758.jpg (http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/15022010758.jpg)
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/15022010762.jpg (http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/15022010762.jpg)
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/11022010755.jpg (http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Aki-76/kayttiksen%20osia/11022010755.jpg)
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thats damn fine looking, I thought about the eaton, but with a cheap good condition G60 in my hands, I couldn't turn it down.
its blast to drive, power on NOW! its gonna turn into a real handful when the boost goes upward of 20PSI
my biggest problem now is intercooling.
I cant fit the cooler I have, and I really like the super simple intake routing.
I have the adapter for the water/meth and will be playing with that, but it really is only going to be useful for WOT/high EGT situations because it requires a consumable.
I would love to get a long flow air/water intercooler to go right where I have the intake pipe now, but the added expense and complexity make that a hard sell.
not sure what I will do after the 58mm pulley, we will just have to see.
-Owen
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regarding intercooler I sourced 2 different ones.
I my case for old Benzes but might be interesting for you as well.
One is the right side of an AMG 600 bi-turbo the second one (not received yet) is also one side of a compressor Jaguar.
Cost is 150 EUR+shipping (from Germany) for each.
In case you are interested I'll send pics with measurements.
Tom
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well, I got another belt to replace the one squealing.
it kinda sucks that the belt only lasted a couple hundred miles, but I did abuse the hell out of it.
it ran too loose for quite a while(loosening issue has been fixed), it got diesel all over it, it got oil on it, and the pulleys are not perfectly in line.
the new belt($35) fixed the squeal! and it doesn't loose boost at higher RPM's
I will only have this belt on for a week or so, because I have all the parts coming to put the alt in line(finally) and with a six rib belt.
but the car was no fun to drive with the slipping belt, it would squawk like crazy at startup, and would only make 5PSI of boost before the belt would start slipping again.
now I can get the tires loose again!
man I cant wait for the parts to install the 58mm pulley!
-Owen
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so I have been running with the boost bypass open to keep the belt from slipping under the load of boost, and I noticed something alarming.
the past week I have been driving under 2500RPM in order to keep the belt from slipping.
with the bypass open I could rev higher than that, but I noticed that at 3000RPM the motor starts to miss.
almost like it has hit a wall, it wont rev higher than 3000, but not like the governor is limiting it, more like it is missfiring like crazy keeping it from revving higher.
I checked the pickup screen on the in tank pump thinking it was fuel starvation, but it was clean.
I cant find anything mechanically wrong.
any thoughts?
-Owen
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VTG turbo? If yes it sounds like the vanes too wide open.
Tom
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no turbo, G60 supercharger
-
are you sure your getting air? bypass the charger completely and see what happens
-
charger is completely bypassed with the bypass open.
I suppose I could pull the intake tube, but I dont really want to run without an air filter...(really dont want to run the charger without one)
-Owen
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Maybe install a vacuum gauge right before the IP and see if you have a restriction. A boat pump installed there might work too, if it collapses at all then you got a problem, who knows how much vacuum it takes to collapse one though.........
-
I might put a pressure/vac gauge there to see if I have vac/how much pressure my lift pump is really putting out.
-
pressure gauge for the pump inlet is forthcoming, but I noticed that I cant hear the intank fuel pump anymore.
seems that it might have crapped out(will confirm with the pressure gauge)
a little search shows that I really dont want to spend the kind of money a new one costs.
anyone have a diesel tank pickup from a MK2 golf/jetta they would sell me?
-
That would make sense as it would be pulling it through the non working pump. Check your fuses and wiring on what you have.
-
well, the lift pump is confirmed to be working, I installed a pressure/vacuum gauge in the feed for the injection pump(cost me $47, but is a good tool to have) and it read a good consistent 4PSI at idle, and 3PSI at WOT.
it read 3PSI even when it was stumbling and smoking and missing like crazy at 3000RPM.
so it is not a fuel line restriction.
if it was a timing related issue(crank pulley shift) it would be most pronounced at startup would it not?
it starts just as fast and easy as it did two weeks ago when it was revving fine...
so what is left?
something wrong internal to the injection pump?
-Owen
-
What if the return line back to the tank were partially plugged? Wouldn't you still a get good pressure reading on the inlet side, but poor overall flow?
-
maybe, but I am starting to think that the timing advance mechanism is screwed up.
either the advance piston is stuck, or the pump is not making enough internal pressure to advance the piston at higher RPM's
so my plan is to make the adapter for a pressure gauge to check the internal pressure, and if that checks out I'll take the advance piston cover off and see if it is stuck.
I'll check for a blockage in the return while I am at it too.
-Owen
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Actually, I'm not sure my idea makes too much sense. A blockage in the return line shouldn't limit the flow through the pump and out the injectors. Might as well check it though. It's easy enough to just blow on the line and listen for bubbles in your tank.
-
if it was blocked it could cause too much internal pressure in the pump, which would over advance it, which could theoretically make it run like hell(much like to retarded would)
-Owen
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maybe, but I am starting to think that the timing advance mechanism is screwed up.
either the advance piston is stuck, or the pump is not making enough internal pressure to advance the piston at higher RPM's
so my plan is to make the adapter for a pressure gauge to check the internal pressure, and if that checks out I'll take the advance piston cover off and see if it is stuck.
.
-Owen
good plan!
i also just had a thought - if your boost guage has a vaccum setting you can plumb it to inbetween the charger and the inlet to make sure you have lots of air.
-
I'd also double check the pump and cam timing. Are they hyd lifters? How's your oil pressure?
Good thought - when hydro lifters "pump up" or deflate from too much pressure will cause missing. I'm betting on issues in the IP though. Did you say you were waiting on a Giles pump Owen ?
-
mech lifters, so that is not an issue, I'll check timing, but again would timing issues not be most pronounced at startup(cold)?
I would love to send a pump to Giles, but dont have the scratch right now(maybe when I come back from work this summer)
my boost gauge does not read vac, but I am confident it has enough air, the charger is always pumping more air than the motor needs regardless of if the bypass is open, so air is always rushing out the bypass never in.
-Owen
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it starts better retarded from the VW timing spec, which due to the camplate in this pump is sortof irrelevant.
and as for the timing not advancing as much, that may be true, but shouldnt be an issue because it ran so good and would rev just fine for weeks regardless.
I suppose the crank pulley could be failing, screwing with the timing, but it seems so rock solid.
I cant move it(relative to the crank) and there is no wobble in it at all.
I guess the only real way to know would be to pull the bolt and look at the keyway itself.
-Owen
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if it was blocked it could cause too much internal pressure in the pump, which would over advance it, which could theoretically make it run like hell(much like to retarded would)
-Owen
I forgot to use my brains a couple years ago when I was messing with the advance/internal pressure thing, I removed the advance spring, put the cover back on and fired it up :o.
It took about two seconds for it to advance completely and yes it sounded very marbley. I had the brains to not floor it so I just revved it slowly and it didn't act funny at all, just rattled a lot.
In your situation even if it was advancing too much, or all the way, then as you revved it up it would eventually be advanced the right amount per the rpm..........
-
good point.
I will focus on lack of advance, or crank pulley failure then.
-Owen
-
unfortunately I did not have the gauge to use for the last timing setting(I had to return it to the shop I borrowed it from)
I just adjusted it until it sounded and drove best and called that good.
it does not sound or drive any different below 3000RPM, I would think that I would notice a change in starting, smoke, something?
I will go and look in the light to see if something looks off(might double check the pump mounting bolts while I am there too)
-Owen
-
well, I think I found the problem.
the two bolts that hold the injection pump bracket to the front of the block have rattled loose, so the IP is hanging on just the flat part bolted to the side of the block.
it works fine during startup and low RPM running, but as the RPM's rise so does the tension in the timing belt. this tension flexes the bracket outward, shortening the distance between the pulleys and retards timing(faster than the pump advances)
I will pull the IP and re-install the offending bolts with blue loctite instead of anti-seize this time.
hopefully that will fix the problem.
-Owen
-
its the two bolts under the IP that hold the bracket to the front of the block, not sure if they would end up in the timing belt...
but, it is not as big a deal as it could have been, an afternoons worth of wrenching at the very worst to fix it.
-
I think he was meaning the other lower bolts on the gear side of the pump.
-
yeah, the pump is mounted solid to the bracket, its just the bracket is loose...
I actually went out to see if the pump came loose, so I pushed on the top of it to see if it would wiggle, and saw the whole bracket move!
its not too bad, I bet I can get to the bolts from below without even pulling the pump out.
-Owen
-
well, the loose IP bracket was A problem but not THE problem.
I tightened the bolt back down with a lockwasher and blue loctite, but it still acts exactly the same.
I think the next step is to measure the pumps internal pressure and see what it looks like.
-Owen
-
yeah, the pump is mounted solid to the bracket, its just the bracket is loose...
I actually went out to see if the pump came loose, so I pushed on the top of it to see if it would wiggle, and saw the whole bracket move!
its not too bad, I bet I can get to the bolts from below without even pulling the pump out.
-Owen
Didn't the belt try and walk off one end of the sprocket when the plate was flexing ?
-
nope, thats why I didn't notice it for a while, the belt tracked just fine.
-Owen
-
well, my new header came in today!
it is a used OBX header, and looks great. no cracks or anything like that(so much nicer than the downpipe I got off the 'Tex)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270011.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270013.jpg)
a schmucks "header reducer" and 2.5-2.25 coupler make the transition to bolt up to the exhaust under the car right now.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270012.jpg)
I plan to go to a 2.5" exhaust down the road, but all I need to do for that is remove the coupler, and it is all set.
I will grab a new set of gaskets and some clamps tomorrow, and might have it installed by sunday night.
-Owen
-
well, my new header came in today!
it is a used OBX header, and looks great. no cracks or anything like that(so much nicer than the downpipe I got off the 'Tex)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270011.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270013.jpg)
a schmucks "header reducer" and 2.5-2.25 coupler make the transition to bolt up to the exhaust under the car right now.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P2270012.jpg)
I plan to go to a 2.5" exhaust down the road, but all I need to do for that is remove the coupler, and it is all set.
I will grab a new set of gaskets and some clamps tomorrow, and might have it installed by sunday night.
-Owen
please dont clamp your exhaust together, you are better than that...
-
not the kind of clamps you are thinking about, I am going to use stainless strap clamps, they seal better, and don't deform the tube.
-
OK, theory time again...
the car has been harder to start recently, not much though and I attributed it to burnt glow plugs.
but there is no real reason for the plugs to stop working all of a sudden.
also, the car is sluggish, smokes more, and EGT's are higher. I attributed all of these to running without boost.
if all of these are assumed to be timing related, it all makes sense.
if the crank pulley was failing, it would take a while(I would hope more than the 250 miles I have on the car) to do substantial damage to the crank nose and act like this. it would also(presumably) happen slowly over a given period of time, not all of sudden like this did.
so here is my idea:
the loose bracket flexed at higher RPM's, effectively loosening the timing belt.
while "loose" during high RPM's the belt skipped one tooth on the crank pulley(retarding timing)
with the retarded timing it wont rev as high, so it wont flex the bracket as much and it did not skip another tooth(thank god)
the advanced nature of the cummins pump did not show up as badly at startup when retarded one tooth, but as it does not advance as far dynamically as the VW one, it showed up when revving.
this should be easy to check for:
set crank at TDC, check pump and cam for TDC marks.
if they are off, then the belt skipped.
re-do timing belt one tooth back on IP and cam, re-tension belt and off I go!
if the cam and pump shot TDC when the crank does, then I will continue with checking internal pressure and advance mechanism.
I will report back with my findings later tonight, after I have a chance to look at the motor.
-Owen
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also, I plan on swapping the VW advance spring and shims for the cummins ones and adjusting internal pressure to VW spec so the pump will act more like a vw one.
and I figured out that the noise I thought was clutch chatter on hard starts(and downshifts) turns out to be the rear motor mount, which is so soft that it allows the two brackets to bang into each other when lots of load is applied.
heavy duty rubber mounts are on their way, as well as a poly insert for the offending rear mount(to be installed in the new HD one of course)
hopefully this will also keep my new header from an early demise from excessive motor movement.
-Owen
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well, no beans on my timing belt jumping a tooth idea, everything lines up fine.
but it is definitely a timing issue as the car smokes white(lots) when cold.
I got a piece of angle iron to use to get the crank bolt out so I can get a good look at the crank nose and sprocket.
I really hope that it is not the issue, and I still dont think it is, but looking wont hurt anything.
the cam is clearly in time with the crank, but the injection pump I am not sure about, the timing marks could be a notch off, could the pump pulley have jumped a notch?
-Owen
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thats what I am hoping happened, even though I would think the crank jumping would be more likley.
I am going to pull the crank pulley to inspect the nose just to be sure though.
I got a piece of angle iron to hold it while I wrench on the bolt.
I will also check what the pump lift is at once I get it running better for future reference.
-Owen
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good to know...
hopefully all this will be resolved tomorrow.
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well, I advanced the pump one tooth and fired it up, definitely marbley, but started quick and didnt need throttle to stay running like it did yesterday.
I don't remember exactly how it sounded before, but I retarded the pump a little bit(not much) and it sounded better.
took it for a drive and no more stumble at 3000RPM.
I put it in second and floored it and it accelerated smoothly right to 45MPH, which comes to 4880RPM
and when it did stop it felt like the governor, not a timing stumble.
it cruises the bast at about 1800RPM.
for the moment I am not going to pull the crank sprocket(it got warm here, so it is really wet in my driveway) if I can find a garage to work in I might pull it and inspect the crank nose.
but for now, I marked the flywheel and serp pulley so I can compare in a few days to see if they have drifted apart at TDC.
hopefully the new pulley for my alt will come in and I can get the boost back!
-Owen
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yeah, it feels good to have it up and running properly again.
I backed the max fuel screw out quite a bit, so it just barley smokes at WOT with no boost.
the G60 alt pulley just arrived, so I can get on with installing the new alt and smaller charger pulley with the six rib belt.
hopefully I can score a garage to work in for an afternoon to install it.
-Owen
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the stock charger oil feed line just came in today, so it looks like tomorrow will be a big install day.
hopefully I will have all this stuff figured out by tomorrow night so I can drive out to Alyeska on saturday to go snowboarding with some old friends.
-Owen
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well, I got the new alternator installed today.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050002.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050003.jpg)
I had to ditch the lower idler gear, so the water pump does not contact the belt much, but it seems to spin it just fine all the same.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050004.jpg)
I took it for a test drive, and it topped out at about 18PSI, when it started making very unhappy noises.
I limped home, with it sounding like this:
(http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/volkswagen%20videos/?action=view¤t=P3050007.flv)
I pulled it apart, expecting the worst, and got it.
the little timing belt in the charger had broken, and it was a new one from GAP, less than 100 miles on it.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050009.jpg)
the displacer looked no better than the belt.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050011.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050012.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050013.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3050014.jpg)
looks like it is time for a new charger...
-
not sure, I am contemplating an eaton.
I can get an M62 for $150, which is better than the cheapest G60 I can find is($250)
the eaton is not very efficient, and does not like to boost past 10PSI, but would be better suited for twincharging.
although having to buy a new charger takes a big bite out of the non-existent turbo budget.
I might just get a shorter serp belt and run it N/A until the fall, when I have some cash.
-Owen
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Ahh! That sucks :(
What about an M90 instead? Do they just become a heat pump over 10psi as well?
If you've still got that bearing girdle, I can help donate a few $ to your car fund.. I'll pm you
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yeah, all the eatons just turn into big heat pumps after 10PSI or so.
the smaller eatons are better suited for the small 1.6(the M90 will be very inefficient spun slow enough to boost at 10PSI)
I would prefer an M45, but the M62 is priced better for me.
-Owen
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ouch man that stinks, a cheesy belt or did something else go wrong and jam it up?
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Sorry for your loss.
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not sure, the charger was in really great shape, so I am not going to say that something internal failed(it is possible, but unlikley)
the most likely thing is that the belt was bad from the factory, and failed.
I am leaning toward the M62...
-Owen
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well, just sold my spare engine girdle(thanks RadoTD), so I am in the game for a new charger.
I am going to buy the M62, just way more value per dollar than another G60.
for the time being I am going to get a new serp belt to run it sans charger until I have the new one ready to bolt on.(probably not until next fall)
I'll make an adapter to attach the eaton to the G60 bracket as it is there already and is holding my alt, etc.
the M62 has a boost bypass built into it(much better than the G60 TB one too) so the eventual twincharging will go well.
-Owen
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well, a little research shows that the M62 is reasonable efficient(not as much as the G60, but still good) to about 15PSI, and can be pushed to 20PSI before it starts pushing air too hot to use.
sounds like a perfect match for what I am doing.
I have a lead on one on the vortex, so pending what that guy wants I might have a new charger soon.
-Owen
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well, it is back together without a charger...
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3060001.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3060002.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3060005.jpg)
and the intake:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3060004.jpg)
it starts and runs, like any N/A diesel, not very exciting...
but the intake is LOUD!
so very loud, it IS going to drive me mad, I just know it.
-Owen
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that is unfortunate
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well, it runs good now, if a little slow.
took a drive to alyeska today, took me forever, couldn't go faster than 35 because of all the snow.
took me almost two hours to get there.
on the way back started to overheat, turned out it was low on coolant, a little looking shows that my water pump is leaking. damn.
so I need to put a new water pump in it too.
oh well, at least I can drive it around.
I am tempted to install the non AC alternator setup I grabbed for the time being, until I get the new supercharger setup ready.
-Owen
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looks like the leak is at the seal to the block, not the shaft.
so I don't need to replace the water pump, just pull it and check the seal(a fair bit of work as it is under everything else)
I am headed down to Homer tomorrow, so repairs will have to wait until the weekend.
new supercharger is on the way, a third generation eaton M62 that I picked up for $150. pretty sweet deal, originally for sale for $350, but didn't sell for about a year, the guy just wanted it gone.
not sure if I am going to adapt the G60 mount, or make one from scratch.
either way will be a fair bit of fabrication.
I am tempted to make a new mount to get the charger and alt closer to the block, so I can fit the intercooler behind the grill.
the fight goes on...
-Owen
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My vote would be to start from scratch: you can be certain to align it properly, and tuck it in nice and tight to the other assemblies, possibly make it much easier for you to mount radiator/intercooler and other such.
Good luck!
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I agree with fabbing from scratch. Plus if for whatever reason you decide to go back to the g-60 you already have the mount.
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yeah, I was thinking that might be the way to go, tuck the charger in close, and the alt nice and low, kinda like where the PS pump is put on the car stock.
allow lots of room for stuff out front.
the mount shouldn't be too hard a flat plate attached to the block over the water pump to attach the charger to, and a pair of tabs for the alternator.
making it line up shouldn't be too hard, I have a spare motor to use for mock-up and fabrication, and since I have the non AC stuff to throw on it, I can even mount the serp pulleys on the spare block to make sure it all works perfectly, and get the proper belt for it as well.
I have a welder(little stick welder, but it works good for thicker mild steel) but I dont have a plasma cutter or cutting torch, so I will have to find one to borrow for the project.
-Owen
-
the mount shouldn't be too hard a flat plate attached to the block over the water pump to attach the charger to, and a pair of tabs for the alternator.
making it line up shouldn't be too hard, I have a spare motor to use for mock-up and fabrication, and since I have the non AC stuff to throw on it, I can even mount the serp pulleys on the spare block to make sure it all works perfectly, and get the proper belt for it as well.
I'm still working on similar for my own car, to put a good rotary AC compressor and the alternator on the manifold side of the block for my B-platform diesel serpentine setups.
Just ordered a good digital caliper with some centerline bore tips, so I can get nice, accurate measurements between boltholes...
If you end up buying a torch rather than borrowing (or borrowing, then buying because you find it so useful, like I did), don't cheap out on the brand. I did. It sucks. :(
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I do have a cutting torch setup, and a good set.
its my dads old stuff, but I dont have a garage, so it stays in Homer at my parents house most of the time.
I may bring it up for the project(if my buddy does not mind having it at his shop for a while)
as for the calipers, I have a good set of dial calipers(again, used to be my dads) and have found that good measurements between bolt holes is really easy, all you have to do is measure between the left, or right sides of the holes(assuming they are the same diameter) and that measurement is the same as between the centers.
I also have a copy of AutoCad(and know how to use it well enough) so I can model things pretty well before hand, and could take said models down to the machine shop and have them cut it with the CNC plasma table too.
the only tool I dont have access too really is a drill press, which would really be a good thing to have.
maybe my buddy wouldn't mind housing one in his garage if I got it.
life sucks when you dont have a garage of your own...
-Owen
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as for the calipers, I have a good set of dial calipers(again, used to be my dads) and have found that good measurements between bolt holes is really easy, all you have to do is measure between the left, or right sides of the holes(assuming they are the same diameter) and that measurement is the same as between the centers.
Yeah, that'd work for most of the measurements I have to take, but some of my holes are irregular, and I'm also measuring from a flat surface to a hole center, so... it's a good investment. :D
Yes, a drill press is a very useful tool!
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after going through a lot of this thread i thought to myself.... why would you go through all the trouble to put a gladder on your diesel? that thing is the worst supercharger and most reliable crap ever made! then i saw the pic of the broken cog belt and i just about laughed my self to death.
i wish it weren't the case, but those chargers are absolute garbage.
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I will have to disagree with you there, the G60 is a good charger, that with routine maintenance can work well for a long period of time, the fact that mine broke has more to do with garbage parts from my parts supplier than the charger itself.
the G60 is the most efficient(over its range of RPM and pressure differential) positive displacement charger available.
if I could afford it I would buy another G60, but I cannot, so I will go with a much less efficient Eaton.
-Owen
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Ok, I think I'll read the past 34 pages in a minute here..
What parts did you need to fit the G60 on? - maybe a total overall cost. I'm looking into doing this while I build the turbo block on the side.
-
I used the stock G60 bracket spaced form the block, and a 16V alternator with the G60 alt pulley.
total cost was under $600 for the whole engine rebuild and G60 bits and pieces.(but I got some good deals on most of it)
-Owen
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I was cleaning my garage today and moved some of the old aftermarket AC/alt brackets,.. to a different pile.
The ones they used when they wanted to add AC to a non-AC Rabbit diesel.
Sounds like what you need as a base for the next charger bracket,..
want a pic?.
I was thinking of posting it for sale in the classifieds,.. for laughs. It's like something from a Mad Max movie..
You are the first one I've heard of that has even tried building a supercharged diesel,.. respect.
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that might be something...
do you have a good pic of one?
-Owen
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I stuck one on the waterpump to show how it sits,... supposed to be some rubber bushings for the holes but I doubt you'd want the bracket to move that much.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7695/altbrackets.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/altbrackets.jpg/)
I'm not sure it's from a Rabbit diesel, can't remember what the gasser Rabbits used fo an AC bracket.
The rusty-looking one in the background has a bracket that goes over the injection pump mounting holes. Actually requires longer injection pump bolts to mount it.
If you'd like either of these to use as a starting point for your new bracket, let me know.
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you know, the one you have on the water pump looks like a a great place to start.
any idea what alternator is supposed to work with those?
-Owen
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I don't know, probably meant for an AC alternator,..
it would probably depend on what your adjuster bracket looked like.
-
I'm sure I can get the offset for the pulley to work out(this project has required much more copmlicated things be done) but I wonder about the width between the tabs to mount the alternator.
could you measure inside, and outside the width of the alternator mounting tabs?
-Owen
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Sure, I'll get back to you with the measurements tomorrow.
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cool, thanks...
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have found that good measurements between bolt holes is really easy, all you have to do is measure between the left, or right sides of the holes(assuming they are the same diameter) and that measurement is the same as between the centers.
I saw a rather clever trick the other day. If both holes are the same size, measure one of the holes and zero the gauge. Now just measure outside to outside of the holes and you have the distance between centers.
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that works too, but as my calipers are hard to zero, so I got used to just measuring from outside to inside, which accomplishes the same thing.
looks like the bracket pictured above will work great, and require very little(if any) modification to make work.
I might have to have some bushings made up to take place of the rubber bushings it was designed for.
-Owen
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URL=http://img132.imageshack.us/i/altbracket2.jpg/](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9200/altbracket2.jpg)[/URL]
The space where the alternator pivots is about 55mm.
An A2, 90 amp, AC alternator fits great.
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Bracket got sent Friday.
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bracket and new supercharger arrived today.
I am sooooo stoked, the charger spins freely with no play in anything, and the rotors are so clean it is hard to think that it ran for very long on anything.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3230016.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3230017.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3230018.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3230020.jpg)
and the bypass actuator can has nipples on both sides of the diaphragm, which means that it will take no work at all to make it boost actuated to have a turbo blow through it!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P3230019.jpg)
I am really looking forward to shoving this thing on my motor and getting back on the boost!
-Owen
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did they make kits to use that with a g60 bracket
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not that I know of, the bracket i will be using will be totally custom.
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Did anything ever come of this?
Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
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yeah he built that supercharged isuzu idi rwd car, and i think hes putting something else together now... the isuzu build was well documented in the non vw diesel section of this forum
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Thanks I'll have to look
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