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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Mark(The Miser)UK on February 22, 2012, 04:55:28 pm
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I understand cheap. I also understand frugal and that's a much more desired term. Maybe after 14 times a person just being cheap. I don't for see any shortage of seals and in the unlikely event that happens, there are alternatives (see my other post about mercedes seals). By the time there are no more seals, we'll probably be putting a handful of garbage in the flux capacitor and accelerating to 88 mph.
Never understood cheap. Personal satisfaction may come into it, and not to forget, the millstone of having only paid £29=38 for the car some 5 years ago, so everything I buy almost matches the cost of the car; eg 5 heatshields @£6 each, or half a tank of diesel...
The engine dates back to about 1984, so will be 30 in a couple of years, yet after the $22 rering , from Autohause, and honed with a plastic drinks bottle, it has low enough emissions to match, or beat modern smoke spec.
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Honed it with a plastic bottle? That's a new on for me. How does that work?
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Honed it with a plastic bottle? That's a new one for me. How does that work?
IIRC about 160 grit emery...
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7789/imgp9948.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/imgp9948.jpg/)
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Glad I own a real hone.
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Glad I own a real hone.
A real hone doesn't guarantee a proper honing. Plenty of examples of failed attempts on these fora.
I have plenty of honing tools, in fact I'm an obsessive collector of tools... and books. How many can say they have a socket with 13.5mm stamped on it?
Anyway back to the bottle...
I like to give myself challenges. I thought it possible, especially as true engineers from the past were able to hone using a wooden piston.
It worked for me, and this old engine now uses something like a pint every few 1000 miles; much of which is from the new, [but useless] push fit valve cover vent rubber grommet :(.
This is an engine that was running with 160 thou ring gaps previously. A lesser man would have spent a fortune oversizing the bore and pistons, or scrapping the engine perhaps. I'm glad that there are people around who buy all the latest kit, because if it weren't for them, industry would surely fail. I better not show you the pictures of my freehand head skim using a table, sheets of plate glass, more emery, and newspaper for shims ;)
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Mark, I think you are trending dangerously close to Neanderthal Mechanic here. Only the most basic tools for producing quality results. There are contests like that. You should seek them out. I bet you'd at least place in them.
Creative minds rule.
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Not to pick too much, but how hard is it to buy a proper tool for the job. I understand many can make tools to do certain things and I do the same, I am not saying your plastic bottle would or wouldn't work. At the same time I started to buy certain tools as the garage started to look like an episode of horders with things like that plastic bottle stored away. Why? Cause I don't like to do things 2 times and throwing away a bottle that I made work before wouldn't seem right. Keeping it looked like I was going to become Fred Sanford. I really started to notice when I was following some of the late Hagar's thread. I was looking at things he did and tools fashioned. Don't get me wrong he had some good ideas, but would it have killed him to get a bentley manual and do some things correct? I am not trying to pick on a dead guy or you, but sometimes there are things that just shouldn't be short cut.
In the end if the specs all measure out it is all the same I guess...proceed.
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Mark, I think you are trending dangerously close to Neanderthal Mechanic here. Only the most basic tools for producing quality results. There are contests like that. You should seek them out. I bet you'd at least place in them.
Creative minds rule.
Lol yeah...
I try my best, like when I'm growing potatoes from halves of a potatoe then a quarter , then from a knocked off eye, surely unbeatable; then last week someone on the radio has done it from peelings... Time to get the testtubes out and perform a little 'In Vitro'....
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Not to pick too much, but how hard is it to buy a proper tool for the job. I understand many can make tools to do certain things and I do the same, I am not saying your plastic bottle would or wouldn't work. At the same time I started to buy certain tools as the garage started to look like an episode of horders with things like that plastic bottle stored away. Why? Cause I don't like to do things 2 times and throwing away a bottle that I made work before wouldn't seem right. Keeping it looked like I was going to become Fred Sanford. I really started to notice when I was following some of the late Hagar's thread. I was looking at things he did and tools fashioned. Don't get me wrong he had some good ideas, but would it have killed him to get a bentley manual and do some things correct? I am not trying to pick on a dead guy or you, but sometimes there are things that just shouldn't be short cut.
In the end if the specs all measure out it is all the same I guess...proceed.
Theman, I know what you mean, for sure, but even the Bentley has it's weaknesses, omissions, and failures. I admit you have to trust the professionals at least at first if not permanently. IIRC at least one Bentley edition transposed the 1000km retorque as good ole 1000miles. Not neccessarily fatal, but possibly creating a leak to the gasket that just wont torque away...
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Not being born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I've always had to improvise. While things weren't always pretty, they worked. However, sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet and spend the bucks. Now you're beginning to sound cheap. Dude, I think I hear banjos playing.
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Not being born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I've always had to improvise. While things weren't always pretty, they worked. However, sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet and spend the bucks. Now you're beginning to sound cheap. Dude, I think I hear banjos playing.
You mean like "Deliverance" ? Mighty fine playing ;D
My inexpensive techniques are simply giving an additional option to those who have limited money to spend on their vehicle, but are trying not to have to throw it away as it is a lifeline.
It is also for those who like challenges; or it suits my lifestyle, where I am not rich and not poor, but by living right smack in the middle of my means, am completely recession proof 8)
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I like Marks method. If you are able to buy the perfect tool for every job you own a well managed shop. Most of us don't so we improvise where we can and spend our hard earned coin on those tools we find over time are necessary to do it right. Living on a budget and keeping your head above water is not always as easy as it would seem.
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I like Marks method. If you are able to buy the perfect tool for every job you own a well managed shop. Most of us don't so we improvise where we can and spend our hard earned coin on those tools we find over time are necessary to do it right. Living on a budget and keeping your head above water is not always as easy as it would seem.
Whats wrong with using a pop bottle to hone your cylinders? if the end result is acceptable, then who cares WHAT he honed the cylinders with? right?
i, for one, think its definitely a GOOD WAY to hone cylinders without a proper hone.. pop bottle is going to keep the emery in contact with the bore, even if the bore is egg shaped..
i think i would rather hone my cylinders with a pop bottle, rather than sit around and wait until i had enough money to buy the proper hone..
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Well, I'm sure glad that you like marching to the beat of his wooly mammothed-skin drum, because I sure don't.
Case in point: closely exam the photo which he has provided to support his "mechanical skills." Zoom in on that photo and you will see that good ol' Mark has been honing his bores, with all kinds of chips a-flying. His delivery valves, all oil drain passages, and the intake tract of his turbocharger are fully exposed to the deposition of steel chips. NO attempt has been made to avoid contamination.
Personally, I would never cut corners and hone a block in the car. I have an interest in doing things much more carefully. If I am setting up an engine to carry me down the road, I prefer the much more cautious/careful route to make every attempt to rule out any sort of breakdown. And, I proudly admit that this frame of mind has served me very well as I have been driving these diesels since '79 and doing right at 50,000 miles (not short kms) many of those years. Do the math, and then understand that I have never, never had one of the diesels stop on the road. Does my poop smell, of course it does. But, close adherence to good practice pays off very well.
I think the introduction of hap-hazard practices and shortcuts, which is Mark's hallmark, steers a lot of the new guys into dangerous waters. This logic is reckless at a time (at least in the USA), when available replacement engine components are getting almost impossible to find. I prefer to follow the "rules" and avoid the catastrophes. Just my humble take. Let the turd-slinging begin.
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I guess what I was saying was not to not try out of the box ideas, I do that all the time. But for things as simple as a hone that tons of people have, go borrow one. It is usually a tool that you use once and don't need it for a long time. I have about 3 friends that I could go to and several parts stores that loan tools and are less than 20 minutes away. * I live in a hick villiage and most people have stuff closer* For the time, mess, energy, and then disposal or finding a place to stick that thing I now usually go to my friends for a tool I don't have and borrow. Most times I can get a beer out of the deal too, so it isn't a total loss of resources to borrow the tool.
If you don't have any friends, or shops, or parts stores that loan tools, or money to buy one, then by all means do what you can to keep a car on the road. If you junk it in the process you have lost nothing, as it wouldn't go without work anyway. I think this could and looks like it did work, but you have to know how to hone and engine with the real tool to even have the basic understanding to pull it off. Most that don't have a tool might not have ever done or know how to do a hone, so I agree with Dakotakid in that it may steer the newest crop in a bad direction. But then enters the live and learn principle that always seems to work for us.
I am as frugal as anyone I have ever met, but I am not cheap. I try to get the most out of a dollar, but something like this where you could be out all that work and parts if it didn't go well...That doesn't save money for me. If it works then you saved 25.00 on buying a hone, if it doesn't then all the time, HG, and head bolts at the least are needed again.
I may split this topic as I think we may have come a long way from heatshields.
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Well, I'm sure glad that you like marching to the beat of his wooly mammothed-skin drum, because I sure don't.
Case in point: closely exam the photo which he has provided to support his "mechanical skills." Zoom in on that photo and you will see that good ol' Mark has been honing his bores, with all kinds of chips a-flying. His delivery valves, all oil drain passages, and the intake tract of his turbocharger are fully exposed to the deposition of steel chips. NO attempt has been made to avoid contamination.
Personally, I would never cut corners and hone a block in the car. I have an interest in doing things much more carefully. If I am setting up an engine to carry me down the road, I prefer the much more cautious/careful route to make every attempt to rule out any sort of breakdown. And, I proudly admit that this frame of mind has served me very well as I have been driving these diesels since '79 and doing right at 50,000 miles (not short kms) many of those years. Do the math, and then understand that I have never, never had one of the diesels stop on the road. Does my poop smell, of course it does. But, close adherence to good practice pays off very well.
I think the introduction of hap-hazard practices and shortcuts, which is Mark's hallmark, steers a lot of the new guys into dangerous waters. This logic is reckless at a time (at least in the USA), when available replacement engine components are getting almost impossible to find. I prefer to follow the "rules" and avoid the catastrophes. Just my humble take. Let the turd-slinging begin.
i think you gotta be smart enough to actually know what your doing, when cutting corners..
some things, i feel it completely un necessary to follow factory procedure, but others, its a closely followed requirement..
if you are dumber than a box of birds, you should not be following marks techniques, but if you are smart enough to fully understand what you are doing, and what the results COULD/SHOULD be, then by all means, do it.
i understand where your coming from tho.. and i would never hone a block in a car.. or with my delivery valves exposed.. or with my turbo right there..
Submitted By R.O.R.-2.0
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thanks for transferring my post.. i was just about to do the same, but you beat me to it!!
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Well, I'm sure glad that you like marching to the beat of his wooly mammothed-skin drum, because I sure don't.
Case in point: closely exam the photo which he has provided to support his "mechanical skills." Zoom in on that photo and you will see that good ol' Mark has been honing his bores, with all kinds of chips a-flying. His delivery valves, all oil drain passages, and the intake tract of his turbocharger are fully exposed to the deposition of steel chips. NO attempt has been made to avoid contamination...
follow the "rules" and avoid the catastrophes. Just my humble take. Let the turd-slinging begin.
No need for any mud slinging I agree. Rudeness acceptable though it would appear ::) Great observations though. However just exactly how many rpms do you think my wrist 'goes' at? Unless you think I'm a hard w**ker [worker]
Sorry folks did I imply that I used a drill?
Dakota, exactly how do you achieve a 45 degree x hone after the deglaze with the correct tool in a drill? I take it you use the sprung trifooted type with little abrasive feet.
My 'cheat' does most of the bore at once, gives you forearms like Popeye, and doesn't sling chips anywhere. You don't have to march anywhere with me, but one thing's for sure, if you are out in the middle of nowhere and have a break down, I'm sure I'd be of more use with my mammoth skin than you who needs to pop home to get the right tool ;D
Just to make everyone happy. Please don't do what I say and do, but use what I say as 'food for thought'... If you can work out my rationale, and come to a similar conclusion, then and only then follow the 'mammoth' otherwise follow the 'kid'
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Read some Henry David Thoreau and and maybe you'll begin to understand his ways. ;)
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Read some Henry David Thoreau and and maybe you'll begin to understand his ways. ;)
Now you've done it, what an interesting bloke, I just need to get a lake named after me now. $65000 get's me an early manuscript, or $36000 get's me his personal copies of his English to German to English dictionary.
Just received an original copy of Mechanics for Young America, a 1910 Popular Mechanics compilation. No other copy to be found other than print to order. Windmills, early cars, paper covered canoes. and the earliest wind surfers I've ever seen...
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I got a dingle berry home mostly cause its called a dingle berry hone
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Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet?
I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.
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Mark,
McGyver would be proud.
Many ways to brew a cup of tea-- end result, tea.
Kids, don't try this at home.
Your results may vary.
May cause bloating.
Redness and swelling may occur.
If your hone lasts more than 4 hours, please consult a physician.
(Guys, he did say he likes a challenge)
Damn fine job.
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Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet?
I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.
That's where you have to think like Mark... He reuses heat shields, head bolts and I'm pretty sure even head gaskets. Yeah if I have my head off I'm going to put new bolts in personally, but by the same token if I was in the middle of nowhere I'd use whatever I had around without a second thought. Heck even at home I'm to use what I have available. Given the same failure you're describing you'd probably find that Mark would have the engine running again for a lot less than $500-600. In the end if the car carries your butt from point A to point B the repair was a success, and kilometres to the dollar is a pretty rational way to think about a vehicle.
As always though it's "This is what I did" not "This is what you should do".
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Threads like this is why I mostly keep my mouth shut when I do some of the "unorthodox" things I've done.. IE:welding engine blocks and drilling holes though throttle plates of GM drive by wire vehicles..
The thing to always keep in mind is "What am I gonna lose if this doesn't work"
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Max
I am with you. I do some stupid stuff and will do more. For instance on your crack block, that is what I would have done. What is the point to put new bolts in if you are going to be taking it apart every couple oil changes anyway? It ends up cheaper in the long run. I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco that is off road only in a mud pit just to get it home, as I figured it was cleaner than the mud water, it was. Same Bronco I used several of the heavy duty zip ties to attach an outer tie rod back to the knuckle to get it home. For my Vw I made an oil adapter that was just key stock drilled and tapped because for the same thing from VDO was around 40.00 and I had maybe 6.00 in mine with the cost of the stock and tap. If 1/2 of the darn pics in my thread for the "starting a turbo build" worked you guys could see I took a jetta that most would have scrapped and turned it into an almost respectable daily...will be again hopefully by summer too. It took years to finish that car and it wasn't cheap, but I did it in small pieces as to afford it. So I get the backyard deal perfectly, but at the same time have had it fail and we should have known better, but tried anyway. For instance after my tie rod fix a friend with a first gen bronco tried to repair a ball joint in the same fashion...didn't work not even for short distances and as many zip ties as we could fit into the hole. I have welded spider gears in the 9" ford rear only to have my torquey 400 ford rip the splines off an axle and break 1 at the splines and 3 or 4 in the middle. Lockers are not cheap but a better way, best would've been to throw away the 1/2 ton garbage and go dana 60 with locker, but that is even more $$$. Every 3rd time or so the axle would let loose it would throw crap into the carrier and usually I would be out a carrier and sometimes my set of 4.56:1 gears. So I get it and have and still do things cheap. I am planning to make a pop tester, you can buy them for several hundred, but I should have one built for under 100 and perfectly functional. I am ALL for unconventional, but only if it makes sense. I get it if you do it just for bragging rights like " I honed and engine with an artificial limb and some corn cob grit...bet you can't say that" and it runs. I just would recommend it for others unless I wanted them to fail in the back of my mind so we could laugh at them while drinking around a fire.
My objection to the pop bottle is what it is. Those pics of the bores looked nasty and he has stated himself he looses oil like crazy *said vc grommit to blame but still he also said this may have been an engine with .160 ring gaps* I didn't get an oring with my gasket kit for the IM seal carrier and with leaks from that which looked bad I don't think I added a quart of oil in between oil changes in 40,000 miles, break in included. At 5.00 or so per quart for the stuff I run how cheap is the bottle hone then?
A quick google search tells me with shipping I can get an engine hone for 24.00 to my door, or if I want it now I can get one for 30 from the local parts store. A gallon and a half of oil and the hone is paid for.
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I think that Mark is say:
If you can do job by yourself it`s much better,even if you loose 3X times in first you will "learn".
Here is so hard to find GOOD parts,I know one can buy rings for 30-150 E ,and often one want to by "original"
gemany part and pay 150 E but he gets 30e quality,so I keep my original as much as I can.
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Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet? I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.
Hi Belch,
Now you raise some interesting points. If I just concentrate on the two I've highlighted...
But first a reminder of the situation. Back in 2007 I bought this engine and car for $150. The body was shot but it had a ticket for 11months so I drove it. After about 10 months the head gasket blew, so I replaced it and did a manual head skim. I changed a 4 thou warp to about 1 thou. Installed new head bolts.Car rotted , so dropped engine into new Quantum wagon at cost of $45. In 2010 starting became hard over a couple of months. Compression low, so began the rering job. I paid more for P & P than for the actual set of rings that I imported.
Now for my reply to your statment...
For my particular engine, there didn't seem to be much ovality. Not saying there wasn't any, but I didn't write it down after checking it as it seemed negligable. I think only one piston had any marking on the skirt, even though there had been blowby and some carbon build up. Not actually as much as you might expect for a set of pistons with 7 out of 12 rings stuck, and I'll repeat it again, 160 thou gap, here’s a pictorial reminder.
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4440/imgp9942.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/imgp9942.jpg/)
Because this type of piston has no locating pin for the rings, setting their orientation as per the book, be it Bently or any other elemetry manual is not the optimum method!
25% of the time the rings’ gaps travel towards each other and the compression lowers, 50% of the time the compression stays the same, below optimum; and 25% of the time the compression improves. This is in addition to the fact that the rings will also settle down and improve the overall compression, if the deglazing and faint knurling, is done correctly/sufficiently.
I make it a policy of setting the two compression rings 180 degrees apart.
This gives maximum compression, and maximum time for rings to settle before compression rings’ gaps align, [or not].
For the rings to settle something has to be out of true, so a very slight ovality of the bore I believe is actually beneficial to allow the breaking in to happen and make the rings wear to their location.
As the oil ring does contribute a little to the compression by virtue of getting in the way of the meandering, escaping gases, with its catchment of oil, I locate it’s gap just to one side of the gap of the top ring. This method creates the longest path for any blowby and hopefully is maintained
When it comes to installing a new set of rings and there is, quite naturally, an apprehension about the ridge left by the last ring.
There is a tendency to want to completely remove this ‘ridge’ because the experts say that this will break the ring.
This is actually something of a fallacy, as the ridge is actually the top edge of a groove cut into the bore by the old ring.
It is a gentle taper from below, leading to a steep climb out of the groove at the top. Although a top ring may have lost a few thou in thickness, most of the wear is radial resulting in a square edged ring.
The new rings always have either a bevel, or a notch cut out of them, so they don’t actually reach as far up the bore as the old rings.
Because the rings, after a correct break-in, settle down and take years to wear, the disappearance of the notch is also very slow and any touching of the bore by the ring will create it’s own wear pattern over the previous one, if at all.
I admit I have buffed the top edge myself in the past, but beyond a little easing of that top bevel, trying to remove it without a rebore, and larger pistons, merely serves to lower compression and aid blowby. Reboring, plus parts is a last resort, unless spending $’000’s 0n a $200 engine/car is not a problem.
There is greater risk of breaking a ring when putting them on the pistons, or inserting a piston with new rings down into the block IMO, and from admissions on the diesel fora.
The work on this, [my] engine was done 18 months ago, and about 15000 miles have passed.
As previously stated, I now burn very little oil, which is in contrast with prior to the work done. The only other time I had the head off was when I did the hand skim, and new head gasket back in 2008.
It is also correct that because I did not have a gasket leak 18 months ago, and just a starting issue, I did not replace the head gasket.
It did not tear on head removal, and hardly surprisingly, it was a perfect fit and, even had location grooves to help re
positioning. I used new head bolts with gasket when new, and, as they were only angle-torqued 45 degrees max [stopping when entering the plastic range for each bolt], for each angular torque; so I had no qualms with their reuse.
Same torquing procedure this time [18 months ago] Next time, I will measure bolt lengths, before I decide whether to replace.
Sorry to hear that unlike me, you were young and dumb, and clearly did something wrong when slapping you engine back together. [A mere gasser too was it?] Also, sorry that you have a current issue with a jumped timing belt. I have always wondered how that can happen, unless something went wrong internally causing a major clash. I’ve heard of numbskulls leaving belt cover’s off and allowing something to wedge in between belt and pulley.
Certainly having the belts feel tight and ’safe’ is actually over tight, and kills two bearings, or more, in the long run. I don’t have a belt tension gauge, but I use hand twisting of the tensioner, and feel the belt for a 1cm of easy travel between the two pulleys. Not failed yet with this method.
Finally seeing as you have raised the issues to fellow enthusiasts, I’d like you to explain exactly what would happen if I used your method and managed to flick with the flailing hone, something into the exhaust side of the turbo. If it were possible to flick another something into a delivery valve that I so dangerously didn’t cover up, please again explain exactly what would happen.
I don’t think it likely with the speed I twist my wrist. I guess it’s an added safety feature I built into my procedure. 8) Total cost for two visits to the engine about $70
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I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco
I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that.. The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source.. He should have waited till it cooled down more... :o
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I really don't see any point to everyone being so negative towards Mark for trying something new. Maybe it isnt a convetional choice and not one that all of you, if any would ever even try. Clearly he didnt pay fortunes for the car and the motor so why not improvise a bit, instead of spending the money, and see where it leads him.
This is the same as...
Telling some it is better to mod there own pump instead of sending it away to giles and having him proffesionally rebuild it, just becuase it to costs alot of money.. or ...someone using PVC pipes, rad hose and hose clamps for charge piping instead of using aluminium, silicone couplers and t bolts.
Anyone who owns a VW diesel and that is telling this guy he is in the wrong is being a hypocrite, the truth is you need to improvise, sometimes alot of the time with these old diesels, and everyone will do it in there own way.
just my 2 cents.
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Total cost for two visits to the engine about $70 [/color]
I can't see how $70 got enough parts andthe beer to carry you through all that wrist twisting :P
I'd also not be surprised to find a plastic bottle just as consistent as a dingle hole, if not more so.
Neither a dingle nor a flappy-stone is going to do jack for concentricity of the bore anyway.
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maxfax
Sounds like he had one too many beer and it clouded his judgement ;)
I have pretty good aim but any vehicle I will piss in the radiator of I am not concerned about getting that close so I don't spill a drop
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I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco
I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that.. The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source.. He should have waited till it cooled down more... :o
Can't be as horrific as peeing in the Amazon and having something swim up the 'stream' and lock on to your 'J-T' ;D
I'd just like to thank those who are giving their support. I also thank those who don't, as progress, new inovation etc etc doesn't take place otherwise.
What I demonstrated here, is simply what can be achieved with little money.
I felt it completely harmless.
I only do about 10000 miles a year, and since the rebuild, mileage on a long run nestles just under 60mpg [imp].
Economy used to get stuck at 45 to 48mpg. Remember 7 out of 12 rings were stuck in, yet it would still run, with legal smoke levels!
Most of my trips are 2 miles or so, so not the best treatment for an engine that loves going at 70 to 80mph.
It has always done better than the official vw handbook mpg for town, which for the waggon is only 40, and I never get under 45, and 43mpg before rebuild. Here is a pic of the piston rings on the piston as removed from engine...
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9287/piston3andstuckrings.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/piston3andstuckrings.jpg/)
Clearly my engine has benefitted from my work upon it. It is also apparent that it has mainly cost time. The job had to be done, as I was starting to flatten the battery on occasion and as it turns out, not having to send stuff away for reboring, or waiting for parts to come saved a lot of time.
Just reading through this forum reveals that there are plenty of cases where people have gone down the 'expensive & correct' route renewing big chunks of their engine only to come up against some error, either self induced, or purely bad luck.
In answer to my own question about my poor work practice, I can reveal what I think will happen...
As I was merely deglazing+, and not reaming the bores, the only stuff that can float into the exhaust port of the turbo is smaller than the periodic pieces of carbon that likely drop onto the vanes when running engine naturally.
In this instance, the grit will be blown out of the turbo.
Any grit entering the water supply will find the lowest point in the block and stay there.
Anything in the oil returns will again end up safe in the viscous film in the sump.
Placing a piece of grit into a delivery valve can only go one way, which is out into the injector and will either fire straight out, or will lodge on the sealing face and almost immediately be crushed.
Don't believe, me? Then try dropping a hammer onto a diamond ;D
Be aware of your environment and cover up if appropriate.
Dropping anything bigger into any orifice is negligence, and should be fished out...
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Rock on Mark-
I'm all ears. I reringed my $125 Jetta in the car with a solid stone hone that I already had. I don't think I would have been as inventive as you with the Coke bottle, but I sympathize. BTW, the car is just fine after 25K miles- burns no detectable amount of oil.
I would really like some discussion of DIY head work. I have several heads that I have planed myself, but I would really like to insert valve guides by myself if possible. After that, if successful, I am confused as to whether a simple hand grind would be sufficient or would I need to pop for a "three angle valve grind" that the machinists want to stick you for....
Rick (another cheap guy)
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I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco
I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that.. The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source.. He should have waited till it cooled down more... :o
omfg... thoughts of scalding pain just shot thru my mind.. (one of them atleast!)
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if it works...why not?
not all of us have the money or dont like to get theys finger nails dirty so all aproaches are valid if the end result is good enough for the one that is going to live with it...
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I too can't figure out the tangents taken to justify their negative posts...as if to qualify their argument that what Mark is doing is wrong. I own a lot of tools too; from specialty outboard marine tools to my encased in foam and loved dearly vw pieces.
I'm going to come from the direction of: "I'm going to do it Mark's way just because: I want to learn. For the hell of it. I want the experience. I want to feel at one with the block ;D". At the end of the day; we're all wrenching on our cars b/c we like/love it and the knowledge we gain from it. Doing things Mark's way may not be for you; but imagine the knowledge he's gained doing this stuff.
I say "Bravo!", Mark.
Cheers,
Andy
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Thanks for the +ve comments. Not easy to come by as a Limey on a Yankee forum, especially as some think I killed Jesus, or was it I pushed Eraser-Thread...
OK so English humour doesn't swim across the pond very well...
Back to the bottle...
The hardest part was finding a bottle the right size. Well it took about 5 bottles to find one. It was quite a snug fit. Cap on, and squeezing the 'handle' put enough pressure on, that the paper was giving giving out by the end of the job, so no heatshield trick on this one ;D
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Maybe we all need to have a look at this.. Pure ingenuity...
http://www.wliw.org/productions/travel/classic-american-cars-of-cuba/342/ (http://www.wliw.org/productions/travel/classic-american-cars-of-cuba/342/)
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That is an example of where making everything to do a job makes sense...they cannot obtain it.
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I think that the division is in what you consider your vehicle to be. A bicycle is basic transportation. So is a Ferrari. If my goal is to simply to get from A to B then it makes little sense to spend any more time and money than absolutely necessary to accomplish it. Some people (and I'll wager that most members of this forum) see their machines as extensions of themselves and representations of how they view themselves.
I could never resist the siren call of a more efficient process and own nothing that is stock. I have been interested in alternative fuels since the 80's and 10 years ago started researching bio-diesel and SVO. The VW seemed to be an inexpensive and available powerplant to experiment with. After trashing my Aspire by hauling everything in it, the Caddy was the ideal vehicle. The VW diesel has one of the worst reputations out there. I have driven slow vehicles in the past and it's no fun having your doors kicked by smart ass teenagers as they fly by on their mo-peds. With a turbo and a few mods I can smoke many a loser-cruiser. I can also do it while getting almost 100 (effective) diesel MPG.
Fixing your ride when you're stuck out in nowhere or if you're dead broke takes genuine ingenuity. I can respect that. Done it myself many times. (piece of rope for a fan belt) But here's the tricky part. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that you should do it. If the means exists to do something right but the home made approach is still taken then it starts to smell a lot like cheap. There are a lot of videos on you-tube about red-neck repair and they say a lot about the mindset of the mechanics. I have built my own engine hoist, band saw, 60 ton hydraulic press, 17' bridge crane and just finished a combo wood chipper-hammer mill. I did the best I could with what I had to make things that I could never afford otherwise. I learned the hard way to do the job right the first time as repairing the repair wastes a lot of time and at my age that's a precious commodity. Had I known that this project would cost me 10 grand at the beginning, I would have just welded a pick-up box on the Aspire and spent the money on gas. But that's the nature of invention and the sirens still call.
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Mr Belch,
I can see what you are saying. Clearly you have also dipped into experimentation, make-doing, etc. I understand the call to do something correctly especially if you/we have the tools/parts to hand.
However, what I did, I had thought about, and I then made a 'judgement'.
I couldn't truely know how successful it would be, but I decided I had nothing to loose other than time. As it turns out, it seems to have been a pretty good result.
If it turned out like these reringing jobs some members have experienced, and reported here, and drank more oil than it did before [unlikely for me with much closer ring gaps], then nothing would have broken, all the bore still intact for a deep hone or rebore and I would have been a little wiser.
When I looked for rings, over here they were something like £400 a full set of OEM. Over in the US there were different brands available, some in the $100's, but IIRC these GRANT rings were dropped down from those prices to a mere $22 for four pistons worth.
Thus I bought 3 sets because had to pay $56 p&p. I had intended to sell the other 2 sets to pay for the job. I also bought some big end bearings, some small end bearings and some crank bearings.
In the end this old engine needed none of them, so they are stashed away in reserve.
What if my hone, perhaps improved slightly, turns out to give consistantly better results than doing the job with the 'correct' tool. The correct tool being in itself a compromise, recommended to satisfy a need, due to it's degree of universality, having to work over a range of diameters; whilst my tool does only one size.
The 180 degree twist given by my wrist down then backup can give a pretty good repeatable angle of hone, covering all way round, dropping say 3" in the process dgives a pretty good repeatable angle.
Rotating bottle and repeating helps any anomalies in my glueing the abrasive on.
Using my other hand gives the cross hatch effect.
I'm sure it is quite hard to use a drill and move up and down at the correct rate.
Could I improve it? Well always... How about covering the bottle with glue and dipping it into grit/sand/abrasive.
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Pull up the pants leg you can't save the shoe. Now we're making our own sand paper? Good lord. Why not just tie a rock to a stick? Just take the bus friend. I try to not be insulting but WOW!
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I think the word was............... "Judgement"
Why not use a rock if it works? I had to use one once with a bootlace tied to it to fix a broken throttle spring once.Well it probably won't work for honing journals, but whatever it takes.
But I would prefer a genius to work on my engine with a hammer than the usual mouth breather you get at the dealers with all the tools.
But why go to all the expense of a used bottle? When the rings finally die in mine I was just going to use a sheet of 120grit wet and dry with my hand.
But I'm still pondering on the best grit to get nice deep scratches to hold oil without killing the smooth running surface.
Keep up the good work. ;D
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I always thought that the cross hatch pattern was to facilitate a "honing" between the rings and cylinder wall so that there would be a match of surfaces. 30* for street engines and 45* for race. The theory was 45* will wear in faster and seat more quickly. Unfortunately, it will also wear out faster hence the 30* for street engines. Every oil holding scratch is a potential compression leak. Oil holding capabilities are enhanced by knurling the piston skirts which will not wear as much as the friction between it and the wall is less than the ring & wall.
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I always thought that the cross hatch pattern was to facilitate a "honing" between the rings and cylinder wall so that there would be a match of surfaces. 30* for street engines and 45* for race. The theory was 45* will wear in faster and seat more quickly. Unfortunately, it will also wear out faster hence the 30* for street engines. Every oil holding scratch is a potential compression leak. Oil holding capabilities are enhanced by knurling the piston skirts which will not wear as much as the friction between it and the wall is less than the ring & wall.
Not heard the skirt knurling idea before. I don't think it is correct though because even with my rings stuck in flush [remember 7 out of 12], and they were able to do this because their radial thickness had reduced by 2 or 3 mm IIRC, only one skirt had any bore marking at all, other than it's original machining, so it doesn't touch.
That is not to say that it isn't floating in a film of oil though.
I used to have trouble grasping why a glazed bore isn't the optimum, after all a polished ring on a polished bore has to be the closest fit. It probably is in the end, but as I understand it, the deglazing allows ring to form the correct shape during the short break-in period. The remaining fine traces of the knurling aid to trap small amounts of oil that won't burn away but give and a degree of lubrication to the rings.
A big question is perhaps how many knurls per inch of travel are sufficient for long bore life. I assume their depth has to be just sufficient to hold the oil, as too deep and as you point out they could get flushed by passing combustion gasses...
What resistance to flow does a short length of hair sized 'tube' have, and how much more does it's resistance increase when say halved?
With the bottle method, I wouldn't say that the remaining knurling was very deep. It is certainly working well at the moment, but for how long I don't know. It's been about 18 months. Now I can actually change the oil rather than keep topping it up.
The black grease that used to be on the splash cover is not appearing anymore, so whatever I did seems to be an improvement fuel economy wise and with the engine condition...I don't race it other than going up to 85 or so I'm not sure of the benefits of knurl angle. I suspect that too many knurls spoil the broth ;D
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Just received an original copy of Mechanics for Young America, a 1910 Popular Mechanics compilation. No other copy to be found other than print to order. Windmills, early cars, paper covered canoes. and the earliest wind surfers I've ever seen...[/color]
It's available online at The Library of Congress http://www.archive.org/details/mechanicsforyoun00chic (http://www.archive.org/details/mechanicsforyoun00chic).
Nothing wrong with trying new things in my opinion. Based on what you paid for your car, I consider your approach to be sensible. As far as the "correct" way to do things, yes technically they are right. However, I regularly deal with suppliers that have better equipment than I have available for both manufacturing and measurement, and yet cannot meet the proper dimensional specifications. As previously mentioned, good equipment is not a substitute for truly understanding what the requirement of an assembly is. I've seen old school tool makers who can hand file a dovetail to mate two metal parts that very few machinists could duplicate.
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Right.
I guess what I and some others have been trying to get across is this...Cheaper is not nessesarily better. I can't tell for sure as I didn't see it in person, but the pics I saw here looked bad. I never got a block back from a machinist looking like that, and if I did I would probably question taking something back to him.
I don't care what someone does to their own stuff, but if I am going to publish something I did on the web *as I have stated before* I would put a disclaimer on it.
For me it comes down to doing something better, not cheaper. Sometimes it costs more, sometimes less, but I strive to do the best I can, not the cheapest I can...sometimes they can be the same.
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Amen to that.
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Right.
I guess what I and some others have been trying to get across is this...Cheaper is not nessesarily better. I can't tell for sure as I didn't see it in person, but the pics I saw here looked bad. I never got a block back from a machinist looking like that, and if I did I would probably question taking something back to him.
I don't care what someone does to their own stuff, but if I am going to publish something I did on the web *as I have stated before* I would put a disclaimer on it.
For me it comes down to doing something better, not cheaper. Sometimes it costs more, sometimes less, but I strive to do the best I can, not the cheapest I can...sometimes they can be the same.
Sorry I don't quite get your point. Looking like what? You mean the bores or the environs? Clearly the deglazing of the bores worked, and sending the engine to the machinists, doesn't usually mean sending the complete dirty car with it.
I don't have the view that cheaper is better. I have the view that paying through the nose to all those trying to make a 'crust' or indeed a complete 'loaf' out of my pocket is not neccessarily better. Unless sending engines to one-man-bands, mundane work often gets handed to understudy, apprentice, or novice, coupled with a time constraint...
This forum is littered with apparent failures by 3rd party 'experts'
I do not recommend that everyone does this, but if they doit is merely a harmless ad/venture. This is merely a demonstration of what can be achieved, with almost nothing. I know it worked, is working for me.
If some wish to only follow the Bentley which is a copy of VAG, which said in the era of plenty heads, do not reskim heads, although they changed their mind after production stopped, then so be it. More fool you/them. Is this forum to only promote VW policy.
What harm could it have done?
What harm has it done?
I would like people including you to answer those points.
I'll be first on the list. After 18months...No harm could be done other than a little time waste if unsuccessful. No harm has been done.
This has been a total success and so must be a professional job [I have to say that due to the lack of humour on your side of the pond] This great job[free] was done on the 12th August 2010. On 17th June 2011 the car complete with this engine went through it's annual MOT here in the UK. The official pass limit smoke test for a car of this era is 3% [modern TDI's 1.5%] This car didn't need the best of 5 attempts but passed on the Fast Track for under 1.5%, with a score of 1.1% .
Need I say any thing else?
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I have explained earlier that the harm done could have been:
Junk in the engine/crank
Poor ring seal=you are still using oil, more than any VW engine I have ran.
All the parts ex: HG, bolts, antifreeze, oil, and TIME that you could have possibly had to do over.
You could have scratched the walls to a point that it needed bored, thus causing more $ to be spent.
What harm has it done? I don't know, other than this thread.
I have also stated earlier that I have personally done some things not in the Bentley. I do however think that it should at least be consulted if you are thinking of doing a practice that is non standard, IF you don't know exactly what you are doing. Most days I do not need my Bentley as most of it is in my head. I mainly use it for electrical and interior work, but for someone who doesn't know it or what the jist is they should have it open IMHO.
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I have explained earlier that the harm done could have been:
Junk in the engine/crank
Poor ring seal=you are still using oil, more than any VW engine I have ran.
All the parts ex: HG, bolts, antifreeze, oil, and TIME that you could have possibly had to do over.
You could have scratched the walls to a point that it needed bored, thus causing more $ to be spent.
What harm has it done? I don't know, other than this thread.
I have also stated earlier that I have personally done some things not in the Bentley. I do however think that it should at least be consulted if you are thinking of doing a practice that is non standard, IF you don't know exactly what you are doing. Most days I do not need my Bentley as most of it is in my head. I mainly use it for electrical and interior work, but for someone who doesn't know it or what the jist is they should have it open IMHO.
Oh dear truth out then. You just don't like innovation.
It is good that all your engines are better than book for oil burning, but then a rebore will give you a new engine.
Perhaps you can write a correct thread of how you do it, then those who have recently or historically filled this forum with tales of rerings and attempts to follow the book, or even sent it to an'expert' can see where they have gone wrong and are still burning oil.
As I said I have oil leaks from the brand new bushing on top of the cam cover, but doesnt seem to be burning anything.
What junk into the engine? Please remember I did take the sump off and the pistons out, and can you see the rag draped on the crank? I can't, yet it was there. :o
Anti freeze? Don't you collect yours? Cheaper than heatshields now so even I renew.
Deep scratches? I think you are in error there. I think you will find the bores quite hard and resistant, and, unlike a honing stone at a relatively high speed, the paper was air cushioned. I thought you were going to say it weasn't knurled enough for your liking. So rest relieved the scratches are minimal. Having given you the smoke results they must be sufficiently small.
I went to the great expense of importing a Bentley from America for the Quantum. Was it worth it? Alas nope.
Good gearbox stuff, but unfortunately [fortunately] they rarely go wrong on a Quantum, unless totally abused.
Poor descriptions generally and an obsession with merely showing proprietary tool for rempoving seals that can only be used on the Quantum or Audi 4000 etc and only hanging on a dealerhip wall.
At least the Haynes was based on someone stripping the car down and rebuilding, or at least the mk2 and earlir stuff back into the 60's and 70's Mk3 manuals had the worst elec diagrams around, and it seems all mauals that followed went the same way.
If you write a thread it will be good for balance, and I'm sure without the damnation that follows mine.
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A job well done! I have heard of people using a sponge to wipe off rust in an engine, and people who slap rings in an engine without reboring, but not sandpaper. If it works then props to you sir! The proper way is not always the most cost effective way. For instance rusted out rear shock tower, spare sheet metal, rivets, arc welded suppport bracket, and bondo = drivable car :)
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As Bugs Bunny once said, " No sense arguing with a genius". I think I'll quit this thread. British humor? Yeah, that Benny Hill sure was a knee slapper alright.
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This forum is littered with apparent failures by 3rd party 'experts'
So It wasn't just me that noticed this? ;)
Unfortunately more should take the doctors pledge of "Do no harm" to heart. :(
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I think you are arguing just to argue now. I left out besides scratching the cylinder too deep, from uneven pressure and coated abrasives being what they are, you could have left them not roughed up enough or in a pattern that didn't work with the rings.
The end to my story is this: which one would you rather have in your car if both cost the same?
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg442/scaled.php?server=442&filename=imgp9948.jpg&res=medium)
OR
(http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Columns/Ask-a-Geek/hone-marks/770885728_yUWMY-L.jpg)
If you feel ok with it in your car fine. I nor anyone else that has a different opinion than you on the bottle isn't attacking you and trying to convert you to proper hone only. I and others are just trying to show that there is a different option to what you see as a different option. I am removing comments that are not in line with the thread.
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Wow the man is really being "the man" about this. :o
I think marks methods are not for everyone but at least he offers an alternate way of doing things for those willing to take the risk.
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I think you are arguing just to argue now. I left out besides scratching the cylinder too deep, from uneven pressure and coated abrasives being what they are, you could have left them not roughed up enough or in a pattern that didn't work with the rings.
The end to my story is this: which one would you rather have in your car if both cost the same?
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg442/scaled.php?server=442&filename=imgp9948.jpg&res=medium)
OR
(http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Columns/Ask-a-Geek/hone-marks/770885728_yUWMY-L.jpg)
If you feel ok with it in your car fine. I nor anyone else that has a different opinion than you on the bottle isn't attacking you and trying to convert you to proper hone only. I and others are just trying to show that there is a different option to what you see as a different option. I am removing comments that are not in line with the thread.
Well your example is a tidy, good example of a deep hone, although what are those vertical scratches? A reflection of something or actual remnants of a damaged bore.
It certainly looks better than mine, as I felt I had been too lenient. If the costs are the same then there is no incentive to use a bottle, unless nothing else is available.
My method does appear to have worked, but who knows perhaps my experiment will only last a few more years, whilst yours might last longer. Only time can tell.
I am only showing what I have done to my engine in my car. Judging by those ring gaps on an earlier picture, this engine had done a lot of mileage prior to the rering It is a little noisy, but as it is still getting 45 to 60mpg imp and it's reliability is why I don't take the GTD engine out, which is quiet like a mouse.
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My method does appear to have worked, but who knows perhaps my experiment will only last a few more years, whilst yours might last longer. [/color]
I think that's the core of the debate right there. Whether or not to experiment, or when experimentation is justified.
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Experimentation is justified when several conditions exist; not all have to hold true on only will do.
1. You have nothing to lose by trying. This is applied when the part is already broken and what ever you do will likely fix it.
2. You are pinched for either time of more often money. If you can't "run out and get the right tool or part" then experimentation is warranted.
3. You have a backup. If you can go to another spare part that is still in serviceable condition if the experiment blows up in your face.
There may be others as well but I move on.
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My method does appear to have worked, but who knows perhaps my experiment will only last a few more years, whilst yours might last longer. [/color]
I think that's the core of the debate right there. Whether or not to experiment, or when experimentation is justified.
The debate can be never ending, but need not be. I've tried to be honest, frank, and open to reasoned doubt.Some of the objections have been quite trivial, yet, when I raise a point, like for example; what are the vertical lines on the 'perfect' hone, I get silence... Even if my engine died tomorrow, after 18months, it would not have lasted less than some of the ventures here on this forum.
I checked the oil level today, and it is still level with the maximum spot on the dip stick. I can't remember when I last gave it some, I think it was last summer.
I see also that the weeping seal on top, has slowed so the cover is merely sweaty looking, with no drip stains, so that is good.
I have spent my whole life creating stuff from nothing, and recycling. In 35 years of driving I've only used a garage for doing front wheel bearings, and giving me the annual road worthiness certificate. This is how I've been brought up.
Back to the issue.
If everyone only does a thorough deep hone as per the book, yet sometimes it fails to stop oil burning, how will anyone learn exactly what was the cause.
Maybe little more than deglaze is neccessary, maybe the actual hone only needs to be a couple diagonal grooves transversed by the rings and that as long as they are there, with the settling of the rings with the deglaze, they provide enough lubrication.
I don't know for sure, but my experiment get's me closer to finding the answer, at least to my own satisfaction. A bit like my heatshield experiment, that goes against all books, and all but a few anecdotal examples, from slightly zany characters ;D
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which sanpaper should i use for honing. i need a bit more aggresive honing for my block, for removing some of this scoring marks. i want this engine block to work normally for 30-40 kilometers :D http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34017.15 i also need your advice about using these pistons in my old block (after rebore)? should i do it, or just hone my "new" block and use the pistons
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You should just buy a ball hone and do it that way if your block is out of the car, which I think it was from the other thread. If not, search for Toby's write up on how to do it in car. This is a joke IMHO, where Toby has very good points to catch the metal and it is more of what should be done when attempting this in car.
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Yeah seriously, a ball hole is not very expensive and ucan use it for years to come
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agree :D i should not try thing like that at home :D
could you look in my thread and give me an advice about my pistons ? i'm thinking on what to do for the whole evening , can't decide to leave the pistons in the block the came with, ro rebore my old block and put oversized pistons there.... (will it work well?) ???
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Anyone know where Mark(The Miser)UK hangout since not posting here anymore? Anyone in touch with him? He had a lot to contribute and I miss his posts.
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Maybe VWDieselparts.com? He was over there initially. Or at least was posting with Hagar when he was still alive.
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Maybe VWDieselparts.com? He was over there initially. Or at least was posting with Hagar when he was still alive.
I believe he got pissed because I gave him a warning about picking on people and told him I would ban him for a week if he continued. The very next post he continued, so I banned him for a week and he hasn't been back. With threads like this one recommending to do stuff like this I really don't mind that he hasn't posted since his ban. He is allowed to come and post whenever he wants now, but I still will not put up with his nit picking.
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Maybe VWDieselparts.com? He was over there initially. Or at least was posting with Hagar when he was still alive.
I believe he got pissed because I gave him a warning about picking on people and told him I would ban him for a week if he continued. The very next post he continued, so I banned him for a week and he hasn't been back. With threads like this one recommending to do stuff like this I really don't mind that he hasn't posted since his ban. He is allowed to come and post whenever he wants now, but I still will not put up with his nit picking.
Isn't this an open discussion forum? Should one attack someones else's ideas and call it crap if they don't like it? If Mark the miser had success in using a bottle hone, aren't there people interested in why he had success?
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I don't think it was so much that he disagreed or agreed with anyone but the way he voiced his opinion on it that was off color or out of line with the forum etiquette and rules. I thought his ideas were good but the commo was a rub at times. So he was warned, fair enough, but continued? Or just decided to leave us and not bother anymore.
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Warned repeatedly, then given a temporary ban, then decided to leave us.
Definitely wasn't about the ideas (though try convincing him he was wrong!!), it was about treating others poorly on the forum. I do miss him though, we had a lot of very good technical discussions.
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That was exactly it. Lots of people and I told him his ideas sucked as it is a mostly free and open discussion forum just the same as he could post his ideas. But he was being combative towards others and not just about his ideas, he was admittedly picking fights with other members just for fun. I had a PM conversation with him about it and he admitted to me that he was doing it to get a rise out of certain members. I was getting pm's reporting his behavior and I just wanted him to cool down a bit. Finally I publically warned him and then banned him a week.
If you think I would ban people just because they are stupid or have some off the wall ideas we all could be gone, myself included.
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Well greetings all. It looks like I'm back... I don't really want to dwell on the past, but just for the record, I never read the single PM from the Mod.warning me of the 1 week ban [Just read it in fact!] dated 14th March 2012.
However, in reality I was blocked completely from entering the site for months, if not up until recently, for all I know, because I was only able to view the forum, after my computer broke late last year, and I changed it.
Fortunately I never erased any of my posts, so they are there to see I never bullied anyone, and always tried to be helpful to all, whatever their experience/confidence in their projects, or problems; save those very few who were extremely rude, obtuse, and unconstructive on my threads.
There was one exception to this, and, I admit I became irritating to this person. I regret this, especially as amazingly, there was a time that we were friends,[or so I thought] and shared similar ideas...
Back to the topic of my thread... Was my experiment successful? You betcha ;D
I still burn unnoticeable amounts of oil. Economy on this 30 yr old engine is still 47 to 62mpg imp, which is as good as it's ever been.
Do I have any problems?
Yes I've been plagued with engine noise for years, and in trying to cure it recently, I broke the cam by driving 7 miles with the tensioner nut left undone, after a bunch of adjustments.
Luckily, I had a genuine German head to hand and just swapped in. Ironically, had I not been running my old timing belt which is nearly 2mm thinner than a new one, the replacement is so tight [snug] that it would not have jumped even with the mistake of slack tensioner.
Can I justify the use of the plastic bottle? Well the effect was more deglazing than honing, with minimal cross hatching [but clearly enough to bed the rings in] I was reading a book last week called " Tuning for speed" 1950's.Probably read by 'Vizzard' They talk about cutting an old piston in half across pin inserting a spring, adding 'flour paper' and a suitable handle ie a conn rod, and doing some manual abrading. So I didn't invent it, and back then there weren't plastic sprung bottles only glass ones...
Do I recommend this method? Well no, not particularly, but the knowledge of what can be achieved for the price of some $22 rings and emery paper has to increase our understanding of what works. 70,000 miles and counting
Last week I had the sump off and checked the shell bearings, almost hoping for the source of knocking to appear. Alas, just as 5 years ago, all bearings in spec using that 'Plastigauge' ranging from 2 to 3 thou. This is despite only ever running 30W 50 Multigrade oil, except for about a month when I changed the head and ran diesel spec 10W ...
I have had an inspiration and may be curing my engine noise next week when I have time to work on the engine again.
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If you think I would ban people just because they are stupid or have some off the wall ideas we all could be gone, myself included.
That would make for quite the forum now wouldn't it. Ahh? did you say something dorky? Banned! Did you admit to using the wrong tool in the wrong way with the wrong results? Banned! Did we just read that you messed up a fine piece of machinery because you lack the money to buy a proper manual for it. YOUR'E OUTTA here.
Membership = 1 the moderator?
Mark, welcome back! The noise you hear, is it above the normal diesel tick? I redid the rings a bit back and I have a strange new possibly lower end noise that I am trying to source out with the use of a long solid bar that I put my ear to, hoping to find the source. Engine runs good and gets me 34 MPG US Gallons in the city. Have not had it on the Highway since for the upper range.
So you been lurking? Or PM back?
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Next week is exciting for me because I am hypothesizing that I will cure or greatly reduce my engine knock, and measure my 7 time reuse TTY bolts. I may even install my skew spray injector nozzles for a smileage experiment.[/color]
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Mark,
Looking forward to your perspectives. I ran an antique lathe in a sawmill that had a model T transmission, Babbitt bearings, and a leather belt drive. With some effort, I could still turn parts within .002 and zero taper. Hell, I even made a two-start acme rod and bronze nut for the planer. I enjoy reading your posts - welcome back
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There was one exception to this, and, I admit I became irritating to this person. I regret this, especially as amazingly, there was a time that we were friends,[or so I thought] and shared similar ideas, until he stabbed me in the back.Shocked ...
Well this is how it starts. Comments like that above are a jab, and if you persist you will be banned again. This time it will be for good as you have had your chance before. I gave you a one week ban, it is still noted as such in the ban log. If there was a computer glitch I am sorry, but I didn't have anything to do with the computer glitch. The jab would be different if it had not been hashed out a million times and it doesn't need to be again, I will not put up with it. I am a firm believer in learning and chances, here is your shot.
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There was one exception to this, and, I admit I became irritating to this person. I regret this, especially as amazingly, there was a time that we were friends,[or so I thought] and shared similar ideas, until he stabbed me in the back.Shocked ...
Well this is how it starts. Comments like that above are a jab, and if you persist you will be banned again. This time it will be for good as you have had your chance before. I gave you a one week ban, it is still noted as such in the ban log. If there was a computer glitch I am sorry, but I didn't have anything to do with the computer glitch. The jab would be different if it had not been hashed out a million times and it doesn't need to be again, I will not put up with it. I am a firm believer in learning and chances, here is your shot.
I don't understand. I was just saying what my reasons were back then in reply to your recent statement.I also said "I regret,... as we were once friends" The events I believe predate your presence. If you read my last post you would see I'm willing to bury the hatchet, an olive branch, move on etc.
"Let's just move on down the same street, albeit on opposite pavements, and perhaps one day, road works will funnel us onto the same path..."
Why do you not comment on the personal abuse by Dakota kid etc?
Did my experimentation with the heatshields, not benefit all? Same with thin shims for injector adjustment. I've just looked it up and it turns out that book I referred to was at one stage the most sought out text for motor bike tuners pre Japanese stuff.
I repeat I too want to move on and forget historic events if I may, thank you ...
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Yes, let's move on.
Everyone, this is not hard...
1) Talk about cars, not people.
2) Facts will speak for themselves; document the work, show the results.
Back on topic:
I'm planning rings and a hone on my TD this winter. Bottle?... maybe, maybe not....
Last time I had the head off the other engine, I tried pouring hot paraffin on the piston tops to seal the gap from abrasive. That did NOT work... the wax shrinks. I chose to not use abrasive to clean the block mating surface.
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I'd try the split, and sprung piston method, only I have no spares. The book also mentions short sleeve inserts in the top of the bore. Porous chrome plating as well come to think of it.
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Mark, welcome back! The noise you hear, is it above the normal diesel tick? I redid the rings a bit back and I have a strange new possibly lower end noise that I am trying to source out with the use of a long solid bar that I put my ear to, hoping to find the source. Engine runs good and gets me 34 MPG US Gallons in the city. Have not had it on the Highway since for the upper range.
So you been lurking? Or PM back?
Hi,
Sorry for the delay in answering.
My noise is from up near the top of the engine and makes the tin manifold heatshields ring like a sound box.
It is a ticking that persists even with ignition off, and engine slowing car down in gear.
I'm now sure it is a mild form of piston rings hitting the old wear mark. The rings were Grant ones with the recessed leading edge for the top ring which eliminates the need to completely remove the top bore ridge.[I eased mine slightly].
However it is my theory, that as they wear and themselves sink into the wall they will get taller, and begin to knock on the top of the ridge, be it the new one or the old one.
WRT your knock, if you stand about 5 ft in front of your car, with the hood down, and audio record the idle for about 10 seconds, I can listen to it here and determine if it is on one or all cylinders. Your mpg is about 41 imp, which is about book for urban driving, but as your towns are bigger than ours I'd expect better... More like 38+American.
Turbo or n/a? injector pressures? timing?
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Wait...wait.....he has not had the opportunity to make a piston out of a Vienna sausage can yet......
Why do you not comment on the personal abuse by Dakota kid etc?
Because you're on the "I will ban you for thinking" radar.. Other people say this forum is the bomb diggedy for information, ingenuity and a damn good bunch of people..
Guess what guys? None of you are living up to this expectation. Is this the TDIclub? The Vortex?! Put your willies back in your pants, and face it that you've had ideas (that if you had the cahones to voice them) that would have been called "stupid" or "a waste of time"
Grow Up. Stop whining. Post about the topics at hand, not about your hurt feelings or grudges held. Live and let live, heard it? Do it.
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Mark, your'e certainly an expert compared to my short diesel life-span, but could the noise be a loose pre-cup? Obviously if it's still there when under load (or so I've been told), then it's not a bad injector. If it's a ring hitting the barrel ridge wouldn't that go away fairly soon? The piston ring land is a thin bit of aluminum and should move south with a few hits - especially after a few 5K runs.
Just shooting at flying pigs here.
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Mark, your'e certainly an expert compared to my short diesel life-span, but could the noise be a loose pre-cup? Obviously if it's still there when under load (or so I've been told), then it's not a bad injector. If it's a ring hitting the barrel ridge wouldn't that go away fairly soon? The piston ring land is a thin bit of aluminum and should move south with a few hits - especially after a few 5K runs.
Just shooting at flying pigs here.
If no-one shot at the pigs, there could be no bacon. I don't think pre-cup because I've changed heads this summer. Here are two links [I hope]
This is the 'new' complete head, which failed to cure the knock...
http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Quantum-man/media/IMGP2506_zps61449767.mp4.html
And here's the sound 'in vision'http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/Quantum-man/media/IMGP2505_zps4a50dfac.mp4.html
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Sounds tinny at first but just as you begin to add throttle, it gets more steel-on-steel like. Once reved it does seem to dissipate but it may just be my old ears (too much listening).
Could a piston ring slap a ridge that hard (and often) without busting something?
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The timing dial gauge was a great idea...the forum was a perfect format for sharing the information far and wide. i am sure everyone appreciated it being out there and we thank the folks who proposed and refined the idea. Later on there was someone in Bosnia who posted the same idea coming to it independently of previous posts.
Where else could we get that kind of idea exchange (about obsolete diesel motors of all things) from an arc of knowledge going 1/2 way around the globe. This forum at its best.
8)
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The timing dial gauge was a great idea...the forum was a perfect format for sharing the information far and wide. i am sure everyone appreciated it being out there and we thank the folks who proposed and refined the idea. Later on there was someone in Bosnia who posted the same idea coming to it independently of previous posts.
Where else could we get that kind of idea exchange (about obsolete diesel motors of all things) from an arc of knowledge going 1/2 way around the globe. This forum at its best.
8)
WoW. Well said.
Different characters all but I'd be lost without this site and everyone in it.
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Mark, I was out this afternoon wrenching on the Rabbit, or is it wenching on the wabbit? Anyway I thought I found the source of my noise in the lower end. Took the oil pan down to check on the #4 crank area as it sounded as if the cap was loose. Not so. something inside the trans side is making the clicking and cracking I am hearing. I put a new clutch in it about half a year back so I am now puzzled all the more as to what the heck I have going there. I also found the loose bolt I have been chasing on the steering side. I have had failure with some new strut cartridges and the steering column itself has been out recently. I sourced my loose nut at the knuckle joint on the inside of the car ast the floorboard. Obviously distracted when putting it back together. No reason for it to come loose.
So I will have to ponder the new noise on the trans side. Why didn't VW allow that cover plate to go on the bell housing without having to pull the bolt out of the starter and on the other side of the transmission? Seems a lot of trouble to go through to peek in there. When is the inspection plate when you need it?
later
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Welcome back Mark. ;)
I may even install my skew spray injector nozzles for a smileage experiment.
Would these skew spray jobbies be out of an old series landrover? ;D
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It would appear their number links to Leyland DAF 1.8... A totally uninspiring vehicle.
BDN0SPC 6651. I'm sure they'll fit a whole bunch of clamp on injectors.
I was actually bidding on 3 sets of nozzles, from the same guy, but the few seconds between them seemed to time shift and I missed rebidding on the VW 293's.
Because they are rotation sensitive, they should be used with locking pins, which of course doesn't exist with the screw in types.
I'm trying to hold everything in line with some high tensile wire I've found. Now I'm trying to decide which way to fire the angled jet:
A 'cord' with the flow or radial, with max flow in standard direction.
This engine's timing has never conformed [well not whilst in my ownership]
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It would appear their number links to Leyland DAF 1.8... A totally uninspiring vehicle.
BDN0SPC 6651. I'm sure they'll fit a whole bunch of clamp on injectors.
I was actually bidding on 3 sets of nozzles, from the same guy, but the few seconds between them seemed to time shift and I missed rebidding on the VW 293's.
Because they are rotation sensitive, they should be used with locking pins, which of course doesn't exist with the screw in types.
I'm trying to hold everything in line with some high tensile wire I've found. Now I'm trying to decide which way to fire the angled jet:
A 'cord' with the flow or radial, with max flow in standard direction.
This engine's timing has never conformed [well not whilst in my ownership]
Doesn't one of the Mercedes engines fire the fuel at a hot ball? Can I not fire at the tip of the glowplug?
Come to think of it on my old head I put in an odd Citroen plug which is slightly longer. I wonder if that was being hit?
Any one research into over-long, or over-short plugs and their influence on combustion,efficiency, and or turbulence?
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[/quote ]
Doesn't one of the Mercedes engines fire the fuel at a hot ball? Can I not fire at the tip of the glowplug?
Come to think of it on my old head I put in an odd Citroen plug which is slightly longer. I wonder if that was being hit?
Any one research into over-long, or over-short plugs and their influence on combustion,efficiency, and or turbulence?
[/quote]
Welcome back Mark!
IDI Mercedes does have a ball the injectors fire onto. But the mercedes ball is made from kryptonite and its prechamber is closed where a broken glow plug tip will not fall into the combustion chamber. Firing onto the glow plug tip will quickly erode it and make it fall off. If you do that with the VW it can be disastrous so inspect often.
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Thanks for the welcome. I am glad to be back; with my batteries fully recharged and a battery of profound questions/statements to unleash ;D...
I'll work out how to align all jets downstream of the plug then...
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Guy I know showed me a photo of a man making a set of piston rings, by hand, in Cuba twenty years ago or so when he visited.
Apparently it took a long time to make a set.
I was significantly less proud of my self for the workarounds and doing without special tools and such after seeing that.
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Guy I know showed me a photo of a man making a set of piston rings, by hand, in Cuba twenty years ago or so when he visited.
Apparently it took a long time to make a set.
I was significantly less proud of my self for the workarounds and doing without special tools and such after seeing that.
Yea workarounds, are so impressive in these poor countries... When I lived in Nigeria back in the '80's, tearing a Landrover tyre in the middle of no-where quickly produced a villager with a baked bean tin some fluids a fire, and some other stuff and low and behold back yard vulcanizing. Something not available in the local VAG
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OK this is what everyone, or many, or a few, or even just I alone have been waiting for :P
This is an update of the state of the Plastic Bottle Hone...
Engine barely burning oil, but there is a slow leak from either the intermediate area or crank. I will do it one day but it's not reaching people's drives yet.
Fuel economy better than official handbook figures. 50% better than when I bought engine/ other car.
My injectors are all set to 130bar. They are old French made Bosch ones. I may buy 12 cheap Chinese ones, and try and make 2 or 3 sets of closely matched nozzles.
The only time I've bought new, were some labelled French Bosch that I re-exported back to the UK from Canada, but I managed to break one by using the wrong spring carrier spaceship thingy n/a's cannot be used with TD nozzles ::). One was faulty with an undersized needle so I only had 2 matched nozzles!
OK back to the hone... Last Wed took the head off; to try and cure that engine knock that has plagued me, for years... could it be 6 now? I'll have to check... Condition inside good, little or no carbon with a slight ring of limestone type deposit where the exhaust valves open. Is that Hagar's fuel ash content?
Tops of bore have the ring ridge... Not massive but possibly more than what I left as I never fully removed them in the first place.The Grant rings allowed for this. Remember this was an engine with compression ratios of 160 to 290 psi compression, and lesser men would have thrown block away or possibly spent a fortune reboring, and fitting oversized pistons...
Don't get me wrong doing the latter should have produced good results. However, I had nothing to lose to find out what was the minimal work on the engine that would repair it satisfactorily. It was my belief that over honing is detrimental. Honing to the top of the bore, unnecessarily enlarges the bore, where it needs to fit closely to the top of the piston, to reduce blowby.
I seem to remember all those years ago, I had 7 out of 12 rings worn so badly that they eventually stuck in, and upon fitting to the bore had up to 160 thou gaps, yet a few weeks before had give me little trouble, and only one piston had had any bore scuffing.
OK what did I see on Wednesday? Top of bore at top of stroke highly polished, with no crosshatching. Some further down the bore, not many though... There never were; as part of my experiment was to prove that only a few oil carrying scratches needed to lube rings, especially with oil squirters.
Not done a compression check, but the assembled engine springs back when trying to rotate with a ratchet. In my oppinion, the most important thing is to deglaze sufficiently to embed/match the new compression rings into the bore before both become a polished misfit, rather than a polished fit.
The whole experiment seems to have worked in this respect.
As I removed no flesh, there is always reboring in the future...
RE the noise; I only had time to reduce the top ridge on two cylinders, as our wonderful MET Office, was predicting a severe storm by 3pm, and I was working outside.
I am going to start a couple of threads tomorrow.
One on the results, of the quick Dremmel fix, and one on why I reassembled with new headbolts. Maybe one on gaskets too making a threesome...
Thanks for reading. :)
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Mark, you sound confident that it's the bore ridge causing the noise. Are you pulling the pistons?
Let us know the outcome.
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x2. It's real easy to spend money to fix something. It's real hard not to spend money to fix something.
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OK this is what everyone, or many, or a few, or even just I alone have been waiting for :P
This is an update of the state of the Plastic Bottle Hone...
Engine barely burning oil, but there is a slow leak from either the intermediate area or crank. I will do it one day but it's not reaching people's drives yet.
Fuel economy better than official handbook figures. 50% better than when I bought engine/ other car.
My injectors are all set to 130bar. They are old French made Bosch ones. I may buy 12 cheap Chinese ones, and try and make 2 or 3 sets of closely matched nozzles.
The only time I've bought new, were some labelled French Bosch that I re-exported back to the UK from Canada, but I managed to break one by using the wrong spring carrier spaceship thingy n/a's cannot be used with TD nozzles ::). One was faulty with an undersized needle so I only had 2 matched nozzles!
OK back to the hone... Last Wed took the head off; to try and cure that engine knock that has plagued me, for years... could it be 6 now? I'll have to check... Condition inside good, little or no carbon with a slight ring of limestone type deposit where the exhaust valves open. Is that Hagar's fuel ash content?
Tops of bore have the ring ridge... Not massive but possibly more than what I left as I never fully removed them in the first place.The Grant rings allowed for this. Remember this was an engine with compression ratios of 160 to 290 psi compression, and lesser men would have thrown block away or possibly spent a fortune reboring, and fitting oversized pistons...
Don't get me wrong doing the latter should have produced good results. However, I had nothing to lose to find out what was the minimal work on the engine that would repair it satisfactorily. It was my belief that over honing is detrimental. Honing to the top of the bore, unnecessarily enlarges the bore, where it needs to fit closely to the top of the piston, to reduce blowby.
I seem to remember all those years ago, I had 7 out of 12 rings worn so badly that they eventually stuck in, and upon fitting to the bore had up to 160 thou gaps, yet a few weeks before had give me little trouble, and only one piston had had any bore scuffing.
OK what did I see on Wednesday? Top of bore at top of stroke highly polished, with no crosshatching. Some further down the bore, not many though... There never were; as part of my experiment was to prove that only a few oil carrying scratches needed to lube rings, especially with oil squirters.
Not done a compression check, but the assembled engine springs back when trying to rotate with a ratchet. In my oppinion, the most important thing is to deglaze sufficiently to embed/match the new compression rings into the bore before both become a polished misfit, rather than a polished fit.
The whole experiment seems to have worked in this respect.
As I removed no flesh, there is always reboring in the future...
RE the noise; I only had time to reduce the top ridge on two cylinders, as our wonderful MET Office, was predicting a severe storm by 3pm, and I was working outside.
I am going to start a couple of threads tomorrow.
One on the results, of the quick Dremmel fix, and one on why I reassembled with new headbolts. Maybe one on gaskets too making a threesome...
Thanks for reading. :)
hello, i know that you have huge experience of reusing even head bolts taht are one time only by manual :D
so i have one question now, should con rod bolts be changed ater 30nm +90 degree toruqing. i have torqued the bolts today and then i remembered that maybe i have installed one of the compression rings wrong (wrong side up) so not to worry about that in the future i will have to double check the pistons :D is it dangerous to tighten rod bolts 30 nm + 90 degrees few times? are they tend to snapping?
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Hi all, thanks for your praise, although who knows how far your tongues are in your cheeks ;D
Gizmoman;
I won't be pulling the pistons, as I see no need to. They have survived years of kissing the valves slightly, due to my overzealous head skim.
This problem was removed by the recent new head.
Proof of the previous regular contact was from the concentric indentations on the piston from the rust nodules on the exhaust valve, as the valve rotated.The valve faces were also 'polished'.
The recent jumped timing belt incident also resulted in no damage to the pistons as the hammer blow of piston to valve to mech shim hit the cam lobe and it being cast, snapped...
The recently checked and Plasti-gauged big end shells were in the range of 2 to 3 thou, with minimal wear.
Did I guess the ridge issue correctly? I'll confess shortly 8)
Vako,
I do indeed reuse rod bolts. I take them up to 35 lbft only.
To decide if yours are safe to reuse [This was first time use correct?] I would measure length of protruding bolts with a digital vernier. If their length has stretched less than 1/4 of the thread pitch, then reuse...
IMO, people over-tighten these bolts due to fear of nuts coming loose or being pulled apart. Look at most used shells and there will only be wear on top shell forced down onto the crank by the explosive force, and nothing on the lower one where bearing cap is being forced off. That is because 'normally' it isn't [much]...
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thank you for your t\fast reply (y) i have removed the cylinder checked them and installed the bolts back. torqued them to 30 nm + 50 nm and hope that everything is okay :D i don't think it will ever come loose by itself, and chanches of the bolt snapping are close to ) ;D