VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Pillow on August 09, 2009, 09:30:01 pm
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I am new here but have been lurking and reading A LOT! You guys have loads of great info and advice here... Now if I can keep up with the acronyms I might absorb more. LOL
Some people are rocking some really decent PSI and most are playing it safe with 12-15PSI.
Now my experience is mostly with the Detroit designed GM 6.5TD motors, but many of those guys drop the CR to 19:1 and raise the boost PSI considerably with good results. FWIW a normal 6.5 when properly modded runs in the 13-15PSI range as well for a IDI engine.
My question is any Dubbers dropping the CR to crank some serious boost? If so what are the results?
Thanks!
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I would think with the lowered compression cold starts would be hateful... But I'm not too sure what has been done around here!
Welcome to the forums!
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IIRC malone was running a 1.9TD head on a 1.6TD block which dropped the compression to something like..... 17:1???
but it DID drop compression.... and it has been done...
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how much boost are you wanting to run ?
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I was thinking 25-30 PSI.
Granted I am not sure if ARP studs and a metal HG can contain that..?
The only way to get serious HP out of these motors of course is more fuel and air. The air is easy given the right Turbo... But can the engine handle it? Dunno. Next area of research will be getting the fueling requirements taken care of. 4BT IP? :)
Thanks,
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Smoking eddy is running that kind of boost with a 1.9 head on a 1.6 bottom and everything else but exhaust and wastegate blocked stock I believe. You could run that much just by blocking the wastegate on a KKK K24 stock turbo or the Garrett T-3 that came stock on the 1.6. I think Zukgod was running 37 on his 1.6, so your boost #s are or should be easily attainable. I hope I could boost that much with my project, but until it is intercooled I don't see running anymore than 20 or so. As for fuel the stock pump does well, but before going to the 4B you might be cheaper and better to go to the vendors section and look for Giles performance diesel injection. He can do anything that should be done to a pump and more. Also I believe Sourkraut figured out that if you put a 1.9L head on the 1.6 block it takes the compression down around 19.5:1 or so. The main difference though is the port work in the 1.9 that is why it is more desirable I believe.
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yeah 1.9 head drops it to around 19:1 or a bit more, i forget, malone had a few other things that dropped his compression a bit more. from what i understand 14-16:1 would be best, but good luck starting it haha. if you're gonna run more boost just be smart and run an intercooler and watch exhaust temps, i skipped both those and cracked a head, but i was young and just doing what ever, i am so much wiser now haha
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I know dropping CR is the best way to crank up the boost, because diesel needs cylinder pressure regardless of how you build it. What I am not sure on is the proper use of CR on a IDI versus a TDI. I know direct injection Cummins go as far down as 13:1, (as a side note, the higher the HP the lower the CR generally). I would be incredibly interested in someones expertise in the IDI world... I think this gets into the area of "quench"? IE the size of the combustion chamber versus the space between the piston and head at TDC, someone correct me if i'm wrong...
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I was thinking 25-30 PSI.
Granted I am not sure if ARP studs and a metal HG can contain that..?
The only way to get serious HP out of these motors of course is more fuel and air. The air is easy given the right Turbo... But can the engine handle it? Dunno. Next area of research will be getting the fueling requirements taken care of. 4BT IP? :)
Thanks,
if your only looking for 30 psi , no worries my brother has been running 40 - 45 psi boost in his samuria for the last year till he snapped the shaft on his turbo , then i turned his pump down so he is now only seeing 35 psi max boost .
he's running arp studs and a 3 hole 1.9td metal head gasket , on a 1.6 , with a 1.6 head and oversize pistons that would require only a 2 hole head gasket .
before i recently swaped out heads on my car ( due to very bad cracks due to overheating when my rad hose blew )
i was running around 25 psi with a stock 1.6 head gasket , and stock head bolts retorqued 1/4 turn .
i now have arp headtsuds and a 3 hole metal headgasket with a freshly rebuilt and heavily ported head ( i'm curious to see is the porting has any effect on boost / power levels with nothing else changed .
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I'm going to run 20:1 on my M21D24 with around 50 PSI =)
Will it hold? Probably since theres is guys out there who has this setup..
// Klang
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50 psi eh?
how you gonna hold that head down?
how ya gonna keep the gasket from shooting out the side of the head?
i talked to some people on here, about my 2.0 audi (same engine as yours, minus one cylinder)
and they told me it could run 40 pretty reliably. but not with a stock head gasket or bolts.
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Why do you want to use so huge boost??? 30psi is good for 230hp in 1,6 with 1,6 head. Real question is: How much power do you want? Then choose correct parts for setup. Blocking wastegate is still no way to make power. Under 200hp, there is no reason to drop compression from stock.
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Yes, you'd be better off in the long run to port the exhaust and run a boost controller. That way you'd end up with lower boost but more power and greater longevity.
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Excellent info guys!
So it sounds like a 1.6 engine with 1.9 head and Metal head gasket with ARP studs could handle 40PSI nicely with the 19ish:1..?
Time to run some more compressor maps and numbers! :)
So with that kind of setup what will fail first? IP cannot pump enough fuel? Rods exploding?...
Thanks!
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So if I were to make a frankenmotor.. Living in Canada what Could i do for winter starts? Good starter, wires, Gp's and battery?
will it suffice when i need it to start on a -15c day? I mean like i hear of some people having troubles with just a normal 1.6... What do you guys think? I would have to plug it in?
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So if I were to make a frankenmotor.. Living in Canada what Could i do for winter starts? Good starter, wires, Gp's and battery?
will it suffice when i need it to start on a -15c day? I mean like i hear of some people having troubles with just a normal 1.6... What do you guys think? I would have to plug it in?
Prolly plug it in and maybe run an intake air grid heater, timered with your glow plug circuit? Cummins uses them, as do several other big engine manufacturers.
I don't really have to worry about cold start issues around here, coldest we get (for maybe a day) is -5C... :D Usually our winters are 3-7C, honestly. :D
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So if I were to make a frankenmotor.. Living in Canada what Could i do for winter starts? Good starter, wires, Gp's and battery?
will it suffice when i need it to start on a -15c day? I mean like i hear of some people having troubles with just a normal 1.6... What do you guys think? I would have to plug it in?
in a word...
YES!
lol
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50 psi eh?
how you gonna hold that head down?
how ya gonna keep the gasket from shooting out the side of the head?
i talked to some people on here, about my 2.0 audi (same engine as yours, minus one cylinder)
and they told me it could run 40 pretty reliably. but not with a stock head gasket or bolts.
I'll take some pics of my modifications of the block... =)
And I'm not the first to run at 50 PSI on these engines, but people are also full of ***, thats why I have a spare block ;D
Are you sure the BMW M21 is Audi? Your not talking VAG? (I know its a VAG forum, but I like my BMW =)
And I'm not planning on running at 50PSI all the time, everyday. Everyday boost will be around 40PSI. With electronic controlled boost/boostcontroller.
My clutch is going to leave my at 800NM anyway.
Ive run 27PSI in my standard 1,6GTD.
Ive run around 30 PSI in my standard M21D24. (Then I added loads of Methanol+Water, and the *** went boom@43PSI)
Still, I cant tell you if its going to work, but I know atleast one guy running at 50PSI today, and the finnish guys run mercedes engines at 50PSI. (Youtube Mynä Diesel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-soNJ8D8Y&translated=1
Or do it this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcDztfFXPww&translated=1
And this is a album from a swedish guy who drives at 50PSI with the same engine as me: http://www.helgonet.ath.cx/album04
// klang
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with 50 psi of boost, you are going to need LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of fuel to even make that boost work for you. and your cylinder pressures are going to be off the charts. what compression are you going to run? cause if you run 50 psi with roughly enough fuel for 30 psi to burn clean, its you will be making more power with the same amount of fuel and less boost. i used to run 30-40 in my rabbit 1.5, with almost no black smoke ever. had it just barely over stock fueling. then i turned down my boost to 20 psi , intercooled it and upped my fuel so it smoked like a freight train. way way more power than with 40 psi. i could never pull 3 gears of rubber with 40 psi.
and yea, im pretty sure BMW used the D24 also, just like volvo. just a 1.6 and a half. and if they did use the D24, then my audi engine will bolt right into your car. all the 5/6 cylinder engines had the same bell housing pattern.
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your comparing apples to oranges here .
just because one engine will do 50 psi boost DOES NOT mean another engine will reliably run at 50 psi .
the other problem you will run into , any turbo that will give decent spool up will be off it's map and overspooling at 50 psi and will eventually self destruct .
one of the bigest reasons the old mercedes can run very high boost pressures .... they have a cast iron head , which allows a more even clamping force onto the head gasket ......
anyways , i thought this was a vw forum , and a thread on boost pressure in the vw engine ?
50 psi eh?
how you gonna hold that head down?
how ya gonna keep the gasket from shooting out the side of the head?
i talked to some people on here, about my 2.0 audi (same engine as yours, minus one cylinder)
and they told me it could run 40 pretty reliably. but not with a stock head gasket or bolts.
I'll take some pics of my modifications of the block... =)
And I'm not the first to run at 50 PSI on these engines, but people are also full of ***, thats why I have a spare block ;D
Are you sure the BMW M21 is Audi? Your not talking VAG? (I know its a VAG forum, but I like my BMW =)
And I'm not planning on running at 50PSI all the time, everyday. Everyday boost will be around 40PSI. With electronic controlled boost/boostcontroller.
My clutch is going to leave my at 800NM anyway.
Ive run 27PSI in my standard 1,6GTD.
Ive run around 30 PSI in my standard M21D24. (Then I added loads of Methanol+Water, and the *** went boom@43PSI)
Still, I cant tell you if its going to work, but I know atleast one guy running at 50PSI today, and the finnish guys run mercedes engines at 50PSI. (Youtube Mynä Diesel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-soNJ8D8Y&translated=1
Or do it this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcDztfFXPww&translated=1
And this is a album from a swedish guy who drives at 50PSI with the same engine as me: http://www.helgonet.ath.cx/album04
// klang
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cast iron heads and blocks inherently hold more booost. dont the mercs have more head bolts too? more head bolts would fix our vw's.
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Most Mercedes have aluminium heads. And om606 will make over 420hp@23psi, no need to huge boost. Also, no need to lower compression from stock.
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Most Mercedes have aluminium heads. And om606 will make over 420hp@23psi, no need to huge boost. Also, no need to lower compression from stock.
anything pre 1985 was cast iron
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in thinking that we only ever need about 35 psi max to these engines. if we cant make our desired power at 35 psi, then we need to tweek and tune. or get bigger nozzles 8)
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in thinking that we only ever need about 35 psi max to these engines. if we cant make our desired power at 35 psi, then we need to tweek and tune. or get bigger nozzles 8)
I dare say that should say better nozzles. You need to be able to burn all the fuel you're dumping in, and if it's just a massive single-hole nozzle that's not gonna happen very well. Big smoke no love. :(
Seven hole nozzles for an IDI? ;D
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I don't have time for a huge reply right now but I was able to touch 40 psi on my original build, ARP Studs, Metal HG.
I used a 3 notch gasket when it called for a 1 notch and installed slightly larger pre cups.
Later I installed a 1 notch Metal HG and still ran around 25+ regularly. 11mm pump btw...
Need to add it ate 2 turbos.. They were WAY over speeding at those levels. Good thing I had a FMIC to help catch some of the turbo parts that flew through.
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in thinking that we only ever need about 35 psi max to these engines. if we cant make our desired power at 35 psi, then we need to tweek and tune. or get bigger nozzles 8)
I dare say that should say better nozzles. You need to be able to burn all the fuel you're dumping in, and if it's just a massive single-hole nozzle that's not gonna happen very well. Big smoke no love. :(
Seven hole nozzles for an IDI? ;D
why dont they make nozzles that have tons of little holes? you would think it would atomize way way better than one or a few bigger holes.
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why dont they make nozzles that have tons of little holes? you would think it would atomize way way better than one or a few bigger holes.
They do. They are used in low compression gasoline engines :P They are also in the intake.
Atomization isn't the only thing you need to worry about. The rate of the burn directly effects noise levels as well as the stress put on the crank/rods etc. The mechanical advantage of the crank is very low near TDC. It's at it's peak half way down the bore.
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why dont they make nozzles that have tons of little holes? you would think it would atomize way way better than one or a few bigger holes.
They do. They are used in low compression gasoline engines :P They are also in the intake.
Atomization isn't the only thing you need to worry about. The rate of the burn directly effects noise levels as well as the stress put on the crank/rods etc. The mechanical advantage of the crank is very low near TDC. It's at it's peak half way down the bore.
They are also in TDIs. One of the big things holding diesel power back is adequate mixing, so separating your fuel streams into more, finer streams can help you get a better, more consistent and mixed burn.
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They are also in TDIs. One of the big things holding diesel power back is adequate mixing, so separating your fuel streams into more, finer streams can help you get a better, more consistent and mixed burn.
This is all very true. Do you think we could unlock the full potential using a VE pump though? I would think that accurate timing and possibly multiple injection events would become important when using nozzles with several holes...
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guys... we are talking IDI's here
multiple injections? 1.9 dual spring injectors do a pre injection
it softens the noise (does it?)
multiple injections are used on CR systems, where they may be delivered at any crank angle, our VE systems are unable of that
even if they were able.. why?
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to the guys thinking that mulitple spray holes in a injector is necessary ....... you guys obviously haven't done any work with a pop tester and a standard idi vw injector .
if everything is working properly you get a microscopic mist of diesel .