Author Topic: 1.9/1.6 Franken Motor (Read 15356 times)

RabbitJockey · « **on:** April 24, 2007, 11:30:11 pm »

Ok so i just want to get some things straight... as it looks like i will be building my own franky since i blew a head gasket... so while the heads off why not upgrade haha. :roll: :roll: anyways there are a few things i want to address. not that i wanna be announcing and bragging what i am doing... but i need to double check all this before i go hog wild

first is putting the 1.9 head on a 1.6 block lowers compression, my td isn't my daily so if it doesn't start when it's around 0 degress out i don't give 2 ***s because i probably wouldn't even try to start it then anyway... and it sounds like the people having cold start problems are the canadians... and it rarely gets below 0 degrees f around here... so i don't think i have much to worry about.

secondly, i have a solid lifter motor... so in order to do this swap i'm going to have to block off the extra drain hole... no biggie. but i have seen alot of talk with people saying that a hydro head won't work on a solid lifter block at all?? i don't see why not if there is a reason a 1.9 head won't work on a solid lifter block please let me know. and yes i am aware that upgrading the oil pump will be a good idea with this hydro head haha.

thirdly... using a 1.9 head gasket will be easy as far as i know i just gotta add a peace of rubber or something to block the coolant passage... sounds simple.

so um let me know peeps... if i do this i am going to write a diy for the 1.9 head upgrade. and i will do burn outs for the good of the forum haha. anyways. yeah just making sure this *** will work then i'll break out my tools and hopefully have this *** knocked out by the time i graduate.

thanks for any info!

car in question

westcoaster · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:09:23 am »

I don't know about the rest of the Canadians on this board but when I say it is 0 degrees outside, water is just starting to freeze. That would be about 32*F

Not too sure if that would have an impact on your decision or not....

jtanguay · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2007, 07:31:28 am »

well Andrew you mentioned before that he could use a metal plug, then have it planed down flush with the block? the only issue i see with this method is $$$!!!

if you plugged in the car, i'm sure it would start no problems in the cold... it would be in your best interest to have a winter beater, and a summer 'fun' car anyways... the lower CR would definitely make for better performance gains

the high CR is pretty much only for fast and easy cold starts :wink:

it would be really neat to lower the cr just enough so that the starting isn't so bad... maybe start the motor on propane, or something that will not pre-ignite...

saurkraut · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2007, 09:51:08 am »

(zips up flame suite, dones welding goggles)

Well, I've done a little pliminary work in this area. Not completely done, but I will share what I have found. I too am working on a frankin motor, that I will not drive in the winter, don't care about mileage, and will never be started below 50 degrees F.

1.) The Hydo valves are allot shorter than the Mech Valves.

Solution:

Rabbit GTI mechanical intake valves have the same head diameter as the 1.9D hydro intake valves, and they are the right length.

I haven't putzed with the exhaust valves yet, but i suspect the 1.6 mech TD valves will go in the 1.9D head.

2.) The valve spring seat are deeper in the head on the 1.9D than the 1.6D head. The valve guides are also shorter

Solution:

Make shims the same diameter as the spring seat that take up the difference between the 1.9 and 1.6 valves. I'm kinda on the fence on material type, steel or aluminum. I'm leaning toward aluminum for the thermal expansion thing.

Nock out the Hydro guides and put the mechanical guides in the hydro head with the shims. I might be wrong, but I believe all the VW valve guides have the same OD. I will research this further in the near future.

3.) Oil return, coolant passage thing. I'm leaning toward pipe plugs for both. To heck with trying to seal between the surfaces. Installed deep enough to be below the gasket surface. Moroso has aluminum pipe plugs that might be big enough to plug the oil drain. Aluminum to Aluminum, should be OK. I'll try to look at the block coolant hole this weekend, when I'm working on my 1.5TD, to see if there is enough webbing to drill and tap.

The only other thing is the Ceramic coating. Apearently, it helps niether fuel milage, nor cold starts. There have been no comments with tangible evidence that it bennifits in any way on a stictly summer time, high performance engine.

zukgod1 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:27:39 am »

Quote from: saurkraut

3.) Oil return, coolant passage thing. I'm leaning toward pipe plugs for both. To heck with trying to seal between the surfaces. Installed deep enough to be below the gasket surface. Moroso has aluminum pipe plugs that might be big enough to plug the oil drain. Aluminum to Aluminum, should be OK. I'll try to look at the block coolant hole this weekend, when I'm working on my 1.5TD, to see if there is enough webbing to drill and tap.
quote]

I am very interisted in this part of the thread, I didnt think of a pipe plug.
I see no reason that wouldnt work unless as you stated there isnt enough material there to get a good seal through the threads.
Please update us in this area or at least update me.
I have a good hydro head athat I want to toss on a mech turbo block.
I would love to do the ARP studs and metal head gasket as well but Iwas told you cant use the metal gasket on the mech block..??
dan

saurkraut · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:26:41 pm »

Here are the Moroso Aluminum pipe plugs:

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=23003

The 1.9 head is in a box in the basement, kind of taking a back seat to the 1.5TD program. That has to be running to take down the 1.6.

I'll try to poke a dial caliper down the drain hole soon.

jtanguay · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:28:35 pm »

with those pipe plugs you need to tap the oil & coolant passages? looks like it would be a viable solution... i would definitely put something on the threads to seal it good though.

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2007, 05:33:45 pm »

i'm sticking with the hydraulic lifters...

so far it looks like this will be pretty easy just plugging the block and the head with pipe threads... or i will probably just use a piece of rubber for the collant passage and an aluminum plug for the head... so do that and then put the bigger oil pump in(even though i don't think it is 100% necessary, more of insurance) and then i should be game for a fun mk1. so basically haha no one really has anything to add. sounds awesome

so looks like hopefully with in the month i will have a metal head gasket, studs, a t3, and a 1.9 head to play with.

and just so every one knows... get an intercooler and get an egt gauge if ur going to play with fueling.... i decided to take the gamble and it was fun but now i have to do all this *** lol

jtanguay · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2007, 07:13:25 pm »

how hard were you running it??? i've got my fuel turned down quite substantially... i can not make my car smoke above 10 psi boost.

i would only flog the motor for 1-2 secs then let off.. i'm also getting a weird metallic screetching noise whenever i let off the pedal... i'm guessing my exhaust system is rubbing :oops:

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2007, 08:55:46 pm »

i had a fair amount of fueling... 180-360 degrees away from not being able to turn my idle back down and i had the lda turned way up and 25psi no wastegate no intercooler. i think the main problem is that i had a small leak int he corner of the gasket and the coolant got low then the head warped.. thats my guess so far. but who knows how hot it was running and stuff

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2007, 10:19:39 pm »

i don't really need to put a pipe thread in the block.. i can just used rubber like the one guy with the scirocco did. accept he was only doing a metal gasket in a solid head/block

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2007, 10:33:53 pm »

Quote from: libbybapa

Yes, that will work if you use a solid plug for the head and have it machined flush to the surface of the head. If you use a threaded plug in the head, a rubber plug WILL NOT work in the block because it will rely on a smooth head surface to clamp it at the border of the coolant channel in the block. Without that smooth uniform clamping surface, the rubber plug will deform and leak. So, with the hyd head up top, mech block below and later gasket, it's either two threaded plugs or none...

Andrew

ok i understand now... so if you go with 2 threaded plugs you don't need to plane anything because you can just put each one in a little further than the sealing surface... i think this will be the route i go.

saurkraut · « **Reply #12 on:** April 26, 2007, 09:04:56 am »

The only other issue is the cam. I'm planning on going mechanical and useing the 1.6 mechanical cam because I know what that cam is like.

I don't know if the 1.9 hydrocam is the same as the 1.6 hydro cam. They might be different. With the difference in stroke, and the close proximity of valves to pistons, I'd lean tword the 1.6 hydro cam.

Let us know how the pipe plugs work, i'll be following you in this endevor in a month or so.

Got to make a turbo 1.5 pump to get the other rabbit going.

zukgod1 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 26, 2007, 11:31:07 am »

I'm very interested in the pipe plug option but I wonder if it may be easier to just have a small plug inserted and have it tiged in place, head surfaced and done. No? Even if we used a pipe plug we could have it tiged in so we could have the head machined flat...

I really want to use the metal head gasket on my non hydro block/ hydro head build but I'm getting mixed replies as to wither or not it will work.
I need to lay the hydro gasket on the block to see where it lies then I guess lay the non hydro gasket on to see where it lays.

Anyone have some input on this?

Sorry for the hijack.

dan

saurkraut · « **Reply #14 on:** April 26, 2007, 04:27:35 pm »

OK, i got it, lift in duration of the 1.6 and 1.9 hydraulic cams are the same, and they're interchagable.