Author Topic: Sonic testing for wall thickness  (Read 8677 times)

February 26, 2007, 10:24:02 pm

subsonic

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« on: February 26, 2007, 10:24:02 pm »
I've heard of this, but have never seen it done.  Anyone offer a brief bit of information on how it works? Can this tell you how much you can bore out the cylinders before you get to thin? How accurate is it?  Do you do it before you start the bore job, or when you are getting close?

Thanks jim


2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #1February 27, 2007, 05:18:54 pm

BruceM31

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 05:18:54 pm »
It works by sending a sonic signal through the material being tested.  It is accurate to the thousand.  I would test it before you begin boring this way you know how much to remove for your max.  a good rule of thumb is to have a min. of .100 cylinder wall clearance.  if you need more info let me know,  I work at a carquest with a large machine shop and they do this quite often.
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #2February 28, 2007, 01:11:58 am

subsonic

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Like x-ray vision man!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 01:11:58 am »
Cool.  The only info I've found on the net had to do with big blocks and such.  I am interested in this as I am planning to bore out a 1.6TD to take 1.7 pistons. It will be a bit over the 3rd overbore limits.  OK, perhaps more than just a bit over.  79.5 I think.  I would be interested in talking to you more about this.  Presently it is 0115 local time.  I am getting up in two hours to drive my ass off up to Canada to pick up 2 1.6TD's and a 1.9 head.  Filling up every thermos I have and hitting the highway.  Night night.
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #3February 28, 2007, 09:41:55 am

malone

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 09:41:55 am »
It would be great if you can share your findings here. I've been thinking of larger pistons in a 1.6 block too.
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Reply #4February 28, 2007, 10:30:07 am

BruceM31

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 10:30:07 am »
You can actually measure more than just cast iron.  from glass to plexiglass, tin brass aluminum pretty much everything you just have to calibrate the tool for what you want to test.  I'll take the tool home probably on thursday. i have a couple 1.6na blocks with the heads off i can test them out and see just how much meat there is.
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #5February 28, 2007, 11:52:53 pm

subsonic

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OUCH!!
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 11:52:53 pm »
GOT THEM!  OMG!!! 20 freaking hours.  Truck didnt start so I took the Golf.  Yes, VW now has a 12 cylnder rear engine sports coupe.  Set up for high speed with a specially designed low riding rear end.  Will post a pic when I figure out how to do it.  
Customs was a nightmare.  I spent about 4 hours there going back and forth with inspectors.
"These engines don't say the conform with epa standards"
"OK, Where would I find that information?"
"It's in the engine compartment"
"UHHHHHH....there is no engine compartment.  There sitting in my trunk, in pieces."
"I need that info, and the vin, and the registration from the vehicle they came out of."
"WHAT! Man, those vehicles are in little pieces somewhere in a smelting pot, probably in Tiawan!  These things are like 15 years old!  Let me pull the numbers off the blocks."
"Sorry, you need to return them to Canada."
"WHAT!!!!! :evil:  :shock: Thats crazy! I'll tell you what the emissions equipment is!  Air cleaner to exhaust pipe to muffler!  Thats it!"
"So sorry, next"
"AAAARRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!"
It was like the beginning of the Brokevw.com clip.

Time for a nap and a tranquilizer :roll:
Jim
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #6March 01, 2007, 07:35:14 am

burn_your_money

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 07:35:14 am »
How did you manage to get through? That sounds like a horrible experience
Tyler

Reply #7March 01, 2007, 08:30:33 am

subsonic

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Nice guy
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 08:30:33 am »
I sat around looking miserable enough for an extended period of time, the shift change happened, and an older more experienced inspector came on shift who took pity on me and dug through the regulations until he found an exception buried deep in the regulations. Thank god
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #8March 01, 2007, 10:08:13 am

BruceM31

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 10:08:13 am »
Sounds like quite the adventure!!!
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #9March 01, 2007, 01:05:49 pm

BruceM31

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2007, 01:05:49 pm »
Well the good news is i'm going to test the wall thickness, but the bad news is the ultrasonic grease couplant that i have to use is empty.  We ordered more today, so i won't see them until next week..............
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #10March 01, 2007, 07:25:19 pm

subsonic

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testing
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 07:25:19 pm »
I would be very interested in the repeatability of the numbers you get.  Meaning, if you measure three blocks, will thin and thick spots generaly be close in number for the same locations.  I know there can be a bit of difference in castings.  How many locations do you need to check per cyl. to get a accurate "map".  What do people here consider for thickness guidlines?  What is way to thin, what is marginal, standard etc.. for running more power than stock. Because after all, is'nt that what this is all about :)
Jim
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #11March 02, 2007, 10:00:49 am

BruceM31

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 10:00:49 am »
i have 2 blocks i can measure without ripping everything apart.  As soon as i get more of the grease i'll will measure.  Normally to get a good map you measure 4 sides of the wall and about an inch down for every location you test.  This gives you a good reading for the total bore for how much metal there is.  My foreman in the machine shop says .100 thousands is as thin as you want to go, and they build alot of racing chevy 350 motors that are pushing WAAAAAY more power than we could ever dream about.
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #12March 02, 2007, 08:44:00 pm

SMOKEYDUB

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 08:44:00 pm »
well you have to remmeber that we are pushing 23:1 compression ration without boost. If you were to go wild boost then you would have majour flexing in the cylinder walls and probably just blow the boost/compression past the rings. A diesel engine is alot different then a 350. :D
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Reply #13March 05, 2007, 07:27:02 pm

BruceM31

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the results are in!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 07:27:02 pm »
i measured 2 1.6na blocks and got pretty much the same results.  The top of the bore is quite thick over .300  all around and between cylinders is about .440   But where the BIG problem is further down between the cylinders.  There the most i saw was .160  Every where else is down the bore is a little over .200 on all sides.  Now to answer the question of this post can you fit the 1.7 pistons in this block?  Personally i would not because stock bore is 76.5mm  1.7 is 79.5mm.  That in terms of thousands is .120, or .060 each side that would need to be removed.  It wouldn't leave enough meat between cylinders in my opinion.  You could do it but your wall would be pretty damn thin.  Now in my research i found that the 3/4 of and inch down and up is the thickest part. This is where i got readings of .300.  The casting is slightly thinner futher down after the 1st 3/4 of an inch.  After studying my readings i have come to the conclusion that the casting is slightly egg shapped so that coolant can pass/circulate between cylinders.  

I would bore to fit 1.7 pistons at your own risk!
Thats not a rod knockin..........its a diesel!

Reply #14March 06, 2007, 05:36:11 am

burn_your_money

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Sonic testing for wall thickness
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 05:36:11 am »
Is it accurate to say that the upper parts of the cylinders are the areas that need to be meatier because that is where most of the compression and action is?
Tyler