Free spinning starter?

[burn_your_money]

I went to start my car up after work today and for the first time ever it didn't fire up on the first try It was -20 out at the time, and I have started it many times before in the temperature without it being plugged in (I can't plug it in at work, but it always is plugged in at night).
I waited about 1 minute for the glow plugs to cycle and then I went to start it. It turned over once and then it sounded like the starter was free spinning without turning over the engine. It sounded like the starter was spinning really fast and nothing else was moving. I stopped trying to start it and then went through the whole glow plug process again and it did the same thing. I was getting a bit frustrated so I skipped the GP step and just cranked it. This time the starter caught and my car fired up, but was running very, very rough, most likely due to the skipped GP step.
Ever since reading that it's better to start your car with the clutch out that is what I've been doing but after it didn't fire up the first time I pressed in the clutch to make it easier for my battery and starter.
Once it was running I let the clutch out and I could see the RPMs fall about 200. I'd press the clutch in and the RPMs would go back up.  I had the engine revved to 1350 (normally idles at 1100) to keep it running semi smooth. As I backed out of my parking space I had to let the clutch slip otherwise the car would have stalled. Actually it stalled once and I went through the whole starting cycle once and it was fine. Then when I put it into first and it took off like nothing was wrong (other then the rough idle)
So:
1: Was my starter free spinning or was it something else? missing some teeth on my flywheel?
2: What's up with my tranny? or could it just have been since the car was only running one 3 cylinders and I wasn't giving it enough throttle that it stalled?

FYI: it seems as if I have low compression in 1 cylinder. One cold days when my car isn't plugged in or really cold days and it is plugged in it will have a horrible miss for about 1 minute and then it smooths out.

BTW -20C is -4F

[jtanguay]

isn't there some sort of solenoid that engages the starter??? seems like you need a new battery :S hmmmmm i've never had problems after i got the wires from the alt to starter to batt soldered...

[burn_your_money]

I'm pretty sure my battery is fine. My car cranks over plenty fast.

[wolfsburgnut]

There is a device in the starter that moves the gear out when the solenoid moves it forward (there is a technical name for it, it escapes me right now).  Sounds like either the soleniod or the device is malfunctioning.  This happened to me as well.  A new device is very cheap 15 dollars from NAPA.   Otherwise if its the solenoid, get a starter from the wreckers.  Those solenoids are not easy to get off after many years of corrosion. I will ask my dad what that device is called...

Peter

[burn_your_money]

I thought that the spinning motion of the starter pushed that gear out, but I guess that makes no sense because it would never come back in once the car started.
Luckily I have a spare starter in my trunk, I just hate changing them and it's also very cold out, as you can tell from my first post

Thanks for all the info so far guys

[Vincent Waldon]

In terms of your engine dropping 200 RPM when you let the clutch in at -20 is pretty normal in my experience... at that temperature the 80 or 90 weight transmission oil is pretty sticky and so your engine will drop accordingly as it has to spin all the moving bits inside the cold tranny... particularly when the motor is not running all that well ie it's cold as well.

When it's cold I usually push in the clutch to start... just to help unload the engine that little bit.


Vince

[Jetta Fan]

I had to replace my flywheel because of missing/bad teeth in the fall....not a pretty sound I can tell you that. It grinds like you would not believe.

As for the possibility of the drive gear not going out to engage the flywheel, it is a possibility due to the cold weather we have been having latley. Moisture can also play a part in that as well, especially if it got really wet and then froze.

But you made a comment about starting the car without pushing in the cluth. I thought the clutch had to be pushed in (safety switch)?

I feel for you if you have to change the starter in -20C weather. Been there....done that too many times (once is one time too many, but it was more than once).

[jtanguay]

I had to replace my flywheel because of missing/bad teeth in the fall....not a pretty sound I can tell you that. It grinds like you would not believe.

As for the possibility of the drive gear not going out to engage the flywheel, it is a possibility due to the cold weather we have been having latley. Moisture can also play a part in that as well, especially if it got really wet and then froze.

But you made a comment about starting the car without pushing in the cluth. I thought the clutch had to be pushed in (safety switch)?

I feel for you if you have to change the starter in -20C weather. Been there....done that too many times (once is one time too many, but it was more than once).

one of the posts here states that pushing in the clutch can wear out certain parts of the motor due to lack of oiling at startup.  mine starts fine without depressing the clutch pedal.  that safety switch thing is just so that noobs don't wreck their clutch/motor by starting it in gear... or worse cause an accident!  :lol:

[Doug]

I'd say that the bendix in your starter was impeded by a little frozen moisture. I wouldn't worry about it. As far as starting with the clutch disengaged, it only makes sense as the load to the starting motor is reduced at the most critical time. Lots of heavy trucks and tractors recommend disengaging the tranny before cranking. The oil issue??? How does that work when the clutch is not part of the lubrication circuit or for that matter the engine. Don't believe everything that you read, even here!

[Vincent Waldon]

My post wasn't very clear (so I've edited it)... I was referring the the transmission oil, which does become part of the equation when the clutch is released.

At one point I had a 1969 VW bus where the transmission became so stiff at -20 that it would actually stall the engine in neutral... dunno what the previous owner used for transmission oil, but replacing it with good ole 75W-90 made all the difference.

[jtanguay]

well you guys want to read more about it... so here i dug up the post... again!

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1694&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

But trouble lurked in the bottom end: we found a trashed thrust bearing surface that the clutch release rod would load when the clutch pedal was depressed. The thrust bearing was the one-piece style integrated main/thrust that Dr. Diesel reported similar bad luck with. At .033" axial play (about twice the wear limit,) all the soft metal had already been worn through and it was already starting to gaul the smooth thrust surface on the crank, but dealing with that was much more of an undertaking than we wanted at the moment, so we just put it back together with a fresh thrust bearing (unfortunately, the only style we could find quickly locally was the one-piece), and will keep our fingers crossed it will last for at least a little while.

[Doug]

Interesting thread that you have there. I think that the significant part is at the very end. How many people sit stopped at intersections with the clutch pedal depressed and in gear or on the highway in slowups creeping for many minutes. How many of us have the original engine since day 1? Maybe a little abuse and neglect has gone into these motors over the last 20 years or more? Bearing wear is dependent on a whole range of issues. I would not be concerned about the several seconds it takes to start a properly tuned and oiled engine.

[burn_your_money]

It did it again, it was -20ish again. I took it for a nice highway run and took it up to 170 to get everything nice and warm, hopefully getting the tranny fluid that warm got some of the moisture out. I guess I'll find out

[andy2]

I've seen this problem before and cured it by replacing the starter.As long as your battery,connections etc tests out ok then its somthing to do with the starter's drive slipping as I understand it.I've replaced 2 starters on different cars that had that issue and they were both instantly fixed.If you could replace this "drive" on an otherwise good starter then perhaps thats all you need.Try a rebuild place for the part as its a fraction of the price compared to replacing the starter.

[burn_your_money]

I have 3 spare starters, one of which just happens to be in my trunk I really hope I don't need to change it because I hate that third bolt.

As long as it isn't breaking anything I'll probably keep using it until it won't start at all, unless I'm planning some long distance trips.

Thank you everyone for your insight, it is muchly appreciated.