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#135
by
theman53
on 27 Mar, 2015 21:59
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I looked through this FAQ and did not see a specific list of the custom bits necessary to use the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump on an AHU and an ALH. I figured I'd add that list.
AHU:
The snout hole in the pump mounting bracket needs to be enlarged for the larger snout of the LR pump.
Because the LR pump does not have slotted mounting holes, you need to make some accommodation for timing adjustment. My preference is to use the ALH sprocket and hub. If you use the ALH sprocket and hub then you either need to use slightly sprocket to hub bolts that are slightly shorter than the stock ALH bolts or trim the pump case slightly where the timing pin goes. If you use the stock ALH sprocket to hub bolts (which are single-use) without clearancing the pump case they will hit. Another option is to file the pump mounting holes so they are slots. If you make the pump mounting holes into slots, you can use the AHU sprocket.
The plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt by the injection lines needs to be changed. I've used the 1.6 plate which requires 2 additional holes to be drilled for mounting to the distributor head.
The LR delivery valves are longer. The two options are to either swap the delivery valves for short ones or bend the metal lines to fit the LR delivery valves. I've used TDI delivery valves and 1.6 delivery valves and either work fine and will fit the stock ALH injection lines. I have also bent the metal fuel lines and have not had any issues after thousands of miles of use. The downside to swapping valves is the fact that you need to source the valves and/or take them from a working pump destroying its value. The downside to bending the lines is that if you ever have to replace a line you will need to bend that one as well.
ALH:
The LR pump snout is the correct diameter to fit the ALH pump mounting bracket. The ALH pump mounting holes are threaded to accept the m8 bolts that fit through from the sprocket side. The LR holes are not threaded and are too large to tap to the m8 size. I tapped them to m10 and got the correct length m10 bolts which just barely fit through the bracket.
The other necessary changes are the same as written in the AHU section. The delivery valve length issue and the plate for the 4th pump mounting bolt need to be addressed.
I like that info as I am getting closer to getting the mtdi ready. You don't have a pic of the 4th hole that needs drilled do you?
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#136
by
vanbcguy
on 27 Mar, 2015 23:29
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On mine, I reused some bits I had around the house for the accelerator cable and the 4th mounting bolt. I used part of the TDI mounting plate and had it welded on to the Rover mounting plate.
Since my 300TDI pump has set screws for the 'whatever the hell it is' accelerator-connected-unknown-function lever on the side of the pump, I couldn't use the 1.6 accelerator cable bracket. Instead I nipped a triangle out of the 1.6 bracket, bent it on a 90 degree angle and then drilled some holes through the Rover bracket and the 1.6 bracket and attached the 1.6 bracket with machine bolts. I also had a chunk of metal welded in place to strengthen the cut 1.6 bracket. This pic shows the 1.6 bracket before welding:
Finally to connect the accelerator lever to the pump, I made up a metal connector that replaces the VW plastic one, since I still had the 'whatever the hell it is' lever on my pump at the time which interfered with the VW style accelerator cable connection. This is just a piece of galvanized steel (actually a chunk of an old electrical box) that I cut a keyhole in on the bottom and put the swaged VW cable end in to after breaking off the plastic part.
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#137
by
vanbcguy
on 27 Mar, 2015 23:35
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Probably also worth mentioning... I removed the internal part of the 'whatever the hell it is' lever when I did my gov mod the other day. It didn't really seem to have a function and it's damn hard to get the pump back together with it in place. Doesn't seem to have caused any issues and I REALLY can't figure out what it's supposed to do after seeing how it went together internally.
It essentially made a veeeeerrrryyyy tiny difference in the ultimate maximum 'full fuel' position of the fuel control lever, but the way the linkage was set up it should never actually come in to play, at least on my pump, since the only time the lever would be in its 'doing something' position would be when the accelerator lever was at idle, which of course means the governor is already pushing the fuel control lever back meaning there's not really any way the fuel control lever could be touching its arm. Very weird.
Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099). He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor). Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.
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#138
by
libbydiesel
on 28 Mar, 2015 00:40
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That extra lever reduces the max fuel slightly, but only at idle... The only plausible explanation I've heard for it, I believe you came up with. It may reduce the initial puff of startup smoke. I do not believe that it will affect the normal operation at all.
As far as the plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt, here's a pic of the rover plate.
The 4th pump mounting bolt is approximately in the location of the green circle. I have a rover plate here and in looking at it more I believe that one could cut it at the blue line, flip it over and place it so the hole that the red arrow is pointing at would be in the correct location. Cut, flipped and rotated it would be oriented like this:
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#139
by
libbydiesel
on 28 Mar, 2015 12:46
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Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099). He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor). Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.
Thanks for the info. On a similar note I thought that I would mention the performance mods for the LR pump for high power applications. There are only three potential changes I would make to the internals of the pump for the extreme build.
Governor mod: The LR pump is governed to 4300 or so rpms in stock form. That means that it starts cutting fuel quite a few rpms before 4300. While I've been happy without doing the governor mod (I rarely push my TDIs to 4,000 or above) I can see how many high-performance builds would desire the easy power of higher rpms.
Camplate swap: The LR camplate is fairly mild. The total max fuel per stroke is determined by (plunger radius^2) x pi x camplate lift. Increasing the camplate lift is one of the ways to increase potential max fuel. The LR pump has higher fueling potential than the 10mm eTDI pumps even with the mild
ish camplate, but a swap to a 4BTA camplate would give a significant increase to the max fuel potential. Bear in mind that any modification that increasing the max fuel potential will shorten the injection event for smaller quantities of fuel making the engine more clattery and so, replacing the camplate with a higher lift one may not be desirable unless that added max fuel potential will be utilized.
Plunger swap: For the extreme build, a swap to a 12mm plunger/head assembly may be desired. 10mm plunger has an area of 78.5mm^2. 11mm plunger has an area of 95mm^2. 12mm plunger has an area of 113mm^2. As you can see there is a greater difference in fueling from a swap from 11mm to 12mm than there is from a swap from 10mm to 11mm. Bear in mind that in the same way that a higher lift camplate will shorten the injection event, so will a plunger diameter increase. You should also NOT increase the plunger size to 12mm without increasing the injector nozzles to be larger than stock.
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#140
by
vanbcguy
on 28 Mar, 2015 23:31
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The governor mod made a dramatic improvement for me. I noticed the difference right away above 3500 RPM. I have a bigger cam in mine too so the gov mod is basically required since the combination of cam + turbo means my engine only really starts to come out to play at 2500ish RPM, so a 3500 RPM fuel reduction and a 4300 RPM fuel cutoff is less than ideal. But with a stock cam and stock turbo this would be less important.
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#141
by
theman53
on 28 Mar, 2015 23:59
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Oh and also worth mentioning, I had a chat with Göran Lindgren (Dieselmeken) about the Rover 300TDI pump that I'm using (0 460 414 099). He confirmed that it should have no trouble supporting 200+ HP with just the usual minor adjustments (fuel screw / LDA / governor). Also confirmed the advance system on that pump is adequate for higher RPM use.
Thanks for the info. On a similar note I thought that I would mention the performance mods for the LR pump for high power applications. There are only three potential changes I would make to the internals of the pump for the extreme build.
Governor mod: The LR pump is governed to 4300 or so rpms in stock form. That means that it starts cutting fuel quite a few rpms before 4300. While I've been happy without doing the governor mod (I rarely push my TDIs to 4,000 or above) I can see how many high-performance builds would desire the easy power of higher rpms.
Camplate swap: The LR camplate is fairly mild. The total max fuel per stroke is determined by (plunger radius^2) x pi x camplate lift. Increasing the camplate lift is one of the ways to increase potential max fuel. The LR pump has higher fueling potential than the 10mm eTDI pumps even with the mildish camplate, but a swap to a 4BTA camplate would give a significant increase to the max fuel potential. Bear in mind that any modification that increasing the max fuel potential will shorten the injection event for smaller quantities of fuel making the engine more clattery and so, replacing the camplate with a higher lift one may not be desirable unless that added max fuel potential will be utilized.
Plunger swap: For the extreme build, a swap to a 12mm plunger/head assembly may be desired. 10mm plunger has an area of 78.5mm^2. 11mm plunger has an area of 95mm^2. 12mm plunger has an area of 113mm^2. As you can see there is a greater difference in fueling from a swap from 11mm to 12mm than there is from a swap from 10mm to 11mm. Bear in mind that in the same way that a higher lift camplate will shorten the injection event, so will a plunger diameter increase. You should also NOT increase the plunger size to 12mm without increasing the injector nozzles to be larger than stock.
From a lot of what I have read you want a DE143 camplate for the 11mm. I don't know that is true but from all the reading I have done for performance that is what I read was the best for fueling. Does anyone know if that is true or is another even better?
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#142
by
vanbcguy
on 29 Mar, 2015 01:24
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Remember it's not just about cramming as much fuel as possible, it's also about having an engine that's decent to live with. At the moment I have no complaints about the stock Rover stuff and I'm pretty sure I've got one of the faster AHUs out there...
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#143
by
theman53
on 29 Mar, 2015 09:54
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The DE 143 is off of the alh auto trans, so I dont' think it would be too bad, I have ridden in a couple different rover pumped and they seemed fine too.
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#144
by
libbydiesel
on 29 Mar, 2015 10:17
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I have not pulled apart an auto trans ALH pump. Considering the auto trans pump has an 11mm plunger and the displacement is 1.9L on an engine that stock develops 25% less power than the stock LR 300TDI, I would expect the camplate from the ALH auto pump to be milder than the one from the Rover pump.
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#145
by
theman53
on 29 Mar, 2015 16:43
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http://www.nosmokenopoke.com/forum/showthread.php?10578-Bosch-VP37-11mm-pump-(038-130-107J-and-0460-414-987)
Watch out on the link...sent me a couple different places before it went where it said it should. When you get there look at reply 7. Libby I have no clue as to what is better and is why I am hoping you know. I have just read some stuff like that link and some stuff that Tintin had on the TDI club saying they liked the DE143, but didn't really say why. I wish there was a definitive list of parts so we could know what played well together if we are playing around.
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#146
by
vanbcguy
on 17 Apr, 2015 13:29
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Probably also worth mentioning... I removed the internal part of the 'whatever the hell it is' lever when I did my gov mod the other day. It didn't really seem to have a function and it's damn hard to get the pump back together with it in place. Doesn't seem to have caused any issues and I REALLY can't figure out what it's supposed to do after seeing how it went together internally.
It essentially made a veeeeerrrryyyy tiny difference in the ultimate maximum 'full fuel' position of the fuel control lever, but the way the linkage was set up it should never actually come in to play, at least on my pump, since the only time the lever would be in its 'doing something' position would be when the accelerator lever was at idle, which of course means the governor is already pushing the fuel control lever back meaning there's not really any way the fuel control lever could be touching its arm. Very weird.
That extra lever reduces the max fuel slightly, but only at idle... The only plausible explanation I've heard for it, I believe you came up with. It may reduce the initial puff of startup smoke. I do not believe that it will affect the normal operation at all.
Now that I've had that little lever removed for a while, I can say there's a definite increase in startup smoke with my car. She puts out a pretty substantial puff at startup, which she didn't do previously with that lever in place. I'm sticking with this theory...
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#147
by
Tylenol
on 08 Jun, 2015 23:14
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I see all the gov mods being done going to the internals of the pump but is this really nessasery if you stiffen the springs internally one way or another are you not just moving the governed speed up the rpm band which makes the fuel pump cutting back the fuel also move up the rpm band? Example if it were set to 4300 rpms fuel starts cutting back at 3500 let's say for sake of argument now we do the gov mod internally and we now have a max rpm of 5000 and fuel doesn't cut back till 4200 rpms! Is this correct or am I missing something?
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#148
by
vanbcguy
on 09 Jun, 2015 11:08
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I see all the gov mods being done going to the internals of the pump but is this really nessasery if you stiffen the springs internally one way or another are you not just moving the governed speed up the rpm band which makes the fuel pump cutting back the fuel also move up the rpm band? Example if it were set to 4300 rpms fuel starts cutting back at 3500 let's say for sake of argument now we do the gov mod internally and we now have a max rpm of 5000 and fuel doesn't cut back till 4200 rpms! Is this correct or am I missing something?
That's exactly what the point of the governor mod is - to move the governor cutoff range further up the RPM band. My current pump will happily fuel all the way up to 5500 or so, I've seen 5750 on some of my logs right before I shifted.
Completely disabling the governor doesn't really work - the pump design needs to have some spring left in the main spring to prevent breaking stuff for instance. The pump itself also has a redline - on a 1.6 with a 9mm plunger they start skipping around 6500. Larger plungers will increase this effect, reducing usable RPM range. The VE pump has a significant technical limit on the max RPM it can run.
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#149
by
Tylenol
on 09 Jun, 2015 19:37
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Oh I understand disabling it would not be wise it holds rpms constant with throttle position without it your foot would never quit moving to keep the same speed! But couldn't you just adjust the max throtle adjustment on the outside to get the same results more spring tension is the key to this doesn't matter how you get it by shim or by movement? Or do different VE pumps offer more movenent then others because on mine judging by movenent of corse I should be able to safely hit 7000 rpm without going into my pump? Then if your worried about no governor just invest in a heartz speed switch like ive got from Murphy the SS300-12 hook to your w pole on the alternator set for your rpm and it cuts fuel till dropped below then powered back on! Wouldn't this be better then altering a good design that works well already?