97 TD won't crank - troubleshooting steps?

[3beejay3]

Haven't posted much in a while-

I have a 97 Jetta TD.(347,000km)  Yesterday when I went to start the car it cranked about a 1/4 turn and then stopped. There still seems to be power at the battery although I'm not sure how much at this point.

This AM I pulled the battery cables off and cleaned the connections.
I will clean all the other connections this evening.
I will get a new battery, 'cause this one is getting long in the tooth.

There is still power to everything else but the car doesn't even try to crank.

What I'm looking for would be a list of steps to troubleshoot this problem.

The car is outside and I have to work on it at night so I'd like to tackle the problem as quick as possible 'cause it's cold out :lol:  :lol: .


Here's what I do know:
The copper cable between the solenoid and starter is still good(had that happen to me before so it's the first thing I checked).
Key switch could be in question cause it's as old as the car.....

Glow plug light comes on, but haven't had a chance to check whether the plugs are drawing any current.

Could some of the experts here give me a list of steps to troubleshoot this as troubleshooting isn't my strong suit. (Assuming the battery change and connection cleaning doesn't solve it)

thanks

BJ

[jtanguay]

could be as simple as not enough current.  what is the CCA rating for the battery? did you try boosting it?

[Doug]

Chances are if the battery was good a short time ago it is still good. Was the engine on the block heater for a short time before the attempt to start just to reduce the strain? .....First check your ground connections. Remove them if possible to clean them up. This means at the battery as well as the motor/starter and chassis. If not this, then check the starter with a jumper cable from the positive terminal of the battery to the terminal of the starter motor. Recently I had to replace the braided copper wire that runs from the solenoid on the starter to the inside of the starter motor brush terminal. It simply had corroded to the point where it could not carry the current needed to turn over the diesel motor. The solenoid was picking up okay though.

[jtanguay]

don't forget that the temps are lowering... and that the recommended battery for our cars is 1000 CCA... so if you have a 700 CCA battery, it better be fully charged, and not on its way out

but of course cleaning the connections is not a bad idea at all!  i would recommend soldering the connections too... that way its there for life.

changing your oil to a thinner synthetic oil will further reduce strain on the motor, and ensure that oil gets to where its needed on cold startups relatively quickly.  i'm running 5w50 right now and it seems okay to me.  hasn't lost a drop as of yet, and thats after about 250km.

[3beejay3]

I never use the block heater and have been using full synthetic oil (Liqui-moly 15w-40? currently) for several years now.

My biggest concern is trouble shooting the electrical system and I'm wondering what steps I should take to do this (will clean and check all the connections asap) as electrical is not my strong suit.

It doesn't sound like the starter is even trying to crank. Are there any fuses in the starting system?

BJ

[jtanguay]

you should probably install a brand new line with 1 gauge wire going directly to the starter.  solder the connection with the proper lead based solder (wear protection as lead exposure can make you stupid...) and you will never have an issue again (unless something burns out...)

[wolfsburgnut]

Is the solenoid clicking when you try to turn over the engine?  If you can't hear it take a multimeter and test for 12v at the exciter terminal on the starter while somebody tries to crank it over.  If there is 12V there next check to see if there is 12V at the large terminal that serves the starter motor itself.  The solenoid can get messed up sometimes and the switch that controls power to the motor itself can get weak, causing a bad connection, or even no connection at all.  I had one go on me like this before.

Peter

[burn_your_money]

I'd do what wolfsburgnut suggested next, it seems the most probable. If you have no power on the exciter wire you can count on your ignition switch being bad. It is very easy to jump start the car. All you need to do is remove the plug from the back of the lock cylinder and then take a jumper wire from constant power to the 50 series wire. I don't know what kind of car you have so I don't know the colors. If you have an alarm you probably shouldn't try this. If you want to drive your car like that just put the key in the cylinder and turn it to run, this will disengage the steering lock

You may also want to have a look at the timing, I highly doubt it but maybe your TB slipped and the valves and pistons are hitting.

It's also possible that you have a leaky injector and have hydro locked the engine, but again, that's very rare

[Doug]

Okay then, if you feel that electrical issues are beyond you, take it to the auto electric place in Stratford. Check the yellow pages. I am sure that they will be happy to do the work for you for a price.

[3beejay3]

Okay then, if you feel that electrical issues are beyond you, take it to the auto electric place in Stratford. Check the yellow pages. I am sure that they will be happy to do the work for you for a price

Doug -
I didn't say electrical issues are beyond me, I said they weren't my strong suit. There's a difference....at least where I stand... I'm pretty sure I can get this sorted out with a little help from these boards. That's what they're here for, aren't they? :wink: I think I prefer to try learn how to do this myself before I spend several hundred $$ on labour and towing for someone else to try and solve this problem, Right? Just sayin...... :wink:

I do appreciate the suggestions here as they have narrowed down my list of things to look for.

I'll tackle this tomorrow evening and report my findings when I get it sorted.

BJ

[LeeG]

I'd start with a known good battery to see if it starts.
Then use jumper cables: one from battery ground to the tranny, one from large terminal on starter to positive.   Then use a jumper wire to put power to the small spade terminal on the starter.  If it doesnt crank like that, pull the starter, test it off the car....fix or replace it.  If the starter worked once you took it off the car, then you may have a locked engine for reasons like described above, or possiby the starter was jammed against ring gear and it will work once it is back on.

If it cranks with the jumper cables and jump wire, leave jumper cables on and try key.  No crank then its between key and starter.  

If it cranks as above, then remove one jumper cable and try again, then next.  Fix connections on the one you found bad

[3beejay3]

I'm going to get a new battery for the car today 'cause the current one is at least 7 years old (probably 10 yrs), so it's due for replacement either way.

What are you guys using for batteries? What is stock size supposed to be?
Jtanguay mentioned it should be 1000CCA.

So far I checked Interstate Batteries and Optima's websites. Neither of them list a battery for a 97 Jetta TD.

I stopped at the VW dealer this am and the parts monkey hauls out a 650CCA battery made by - Interstate Batteries :?: . I challenged him on this, He claims it's the right one but didn't have anything on the ETKA or his battery chart to indicate this. :? Told him I'd check into it further.

What is the biggest, readily available battery that will bolt right into this car?  Bigger is better, right? :lol:

BJ

[QuickTD]

Bigger is better, right?

 Depends what you mean by bigger. Physically large is good, but high CCA may not be. Batteries with very high CCA (cold cranking amp) ratings are designed with porous or grid plates for maximum surface area and the highest possible instantaneous current. These plates are fragile and tend to break apart much more easily due to vibration, particularly if the battery has been deeply discharged. The large surface area and grid construction also means that less lead is used in the construction so the batteries capacity may be somewhat lower than a similar sized battery with heavy flat plates and a lower CCA rating. With high CCA batteries you get high cranking amps but lower capacity and shorter service life.

 In reality, it only takes 300-500 amps to crank the engine, even in cold weather, so CCA isn't all that important. What is important is the actual amp-hour capacity of the battery (which is almost never specified  :x ), which will determine how long you will be able to crank or how many glow plug cycles the battery can sustain and still crank the engine. CCA sells batteries but does not necessarily start cars...

 I tend to shop for the physically largest and heaviest battery with the lowest CCA that will fit in the space provided. The heaviest battery will always be the most durable and a battery with more lead and more acid will almost always have the greater amp-hour capacity. The VW / interstate battery that the dealer offered, which is physically large but with low CCA, was probably not a bad choice.

[3beejay3]

Thanks, Bruce

[Doug]

Interestingly enough I had a 1000 CCA Eliminator from CTC last 9 years in my Jetta IDI. It even suffered a couple of serious discharge events when the alternator quit. I was at least a 2 hour drive from home in the dark! Like you, it would not have been my first choice in a battery but it came with the car. It has an amazing warranty that I figure you purchase up front in superior performance and durability.