bit of an intro

[tSoG-84bit]

so I just got my first diesel, a 1984 NA two door rabbit w/ a 4 speed manual. while it may be a step down in performance from my last car (87 toyo supra) this little 'bit has way more character. I got the car for one main reason, biofuels.

Its in the shop right now getting the HVAC and 1/2 axles fixed/replaced, and after that I plan on adding a second fuel tank, running some coolant and fuel lines, and running this little 'bit on veggie oil.

the trouble is, I do miss the power. So I searched the web, and found this place. I have lurked for a month or so, and figure no time like the present to get started, asking questions and what not.

my performance plans are kind of simple. keep it NA, Giles pump, better cam, improved intake, and exhaust. in my time spent lurking I have seen a few posts indicating a 1.9 head would be another worthwhile upgrade. I am not dead set against turbo, I figured if I want turbo I should just go out and do a engine swap. thats not a terrible idea either, but why buy a new engine when I have a running one already.

 What I really want to know is; what can I expect from a car running on veggie oil, and the above mods? will I get my moneys worth, or will VO keep me putting up the hills whether I have twice the HP or not?

I dont expect this to be a race car, just a cheap, and fun daily driver til I can get something newer (then it will be a race car)

thanks in advance everyone
tSoG

[burn_your_money]

IN regards to the 1.9 head, you may have troubles with cold starts and a rough idle until it warms up, but you probably already read about that

[malone]

Adding a 1.9 head to a 1.6 block will lower compression, which may be undesirable for NA, but it's ideal for FI (turbo). As far as I know there were two documented cases of 1.6/1.9 cold start difficulties - in my case my compression was much lower than usual due to a grinded head deck, but the engine still started up after 1 or 2 cranks in -5 degree Celsius temperatures with a small battery and small gasser electric starter. It idled roughly for the first 15-30 secs if I remember correctly.

The other case was a 1.9 head with a bent valve, which explained the poor starting. Basically a bad 1.9 head was installed in his car.

A standard 1.9 head on a 1.6 block shouldn't be that bad for cold starts.. that's just an assumption though.

Diesels and turbos are made for each other. The combination of a ported 1.9 head, turbo, and a Giles pump will haul ass compared to NA. You'll probably want a turbo diesel block for longevity though, so basically you might be building another diesel engine: 1.6TD block + 1.9 head.

A tuned NA diesel can still be fun to drive. With a Giles pump, some airflow mods, biodiesel, and veggie oil, I think you'll be happy. Saving at least 75% in monthly fuel costs ROCKS. No need to worry about turbo unless you have some more $$ to spend.

After driving a highly tuned 1.6/1.9 TD and a couple 200whp+ TDIs, I am currently thinking of getting a mint MK1 Rabbit or MK2 Golf and installing a 1.6 NA engine with a veggie oil setup like you said. With a Giles pump and considerable airflow upgrades I'll still enjoy it. I can expect at least 400,000km out of the engine if properly maintained. I love the simplicity.

I spend at least 2 hours a day driving and 95% of the time the traffic is congested, so I don't always need rippin' performance. An old stock 1.6 NA does 140km/h no problem on the highway. I'll have a second car later for real performance (likely a revival of my 1.6/1.9 TD project).

Oh, I'm also thinking of a nitrous/pump LDA setup for the NA :roll: but I digress. www.frybrid.com has one of the top veggie oil kits. I'm not implying that you buy their kit (I'm not affiliated with them either), but they have a message board that has very detailed veggie oil diagrams depicting how to control heat of veggie oil optimally and how to purge it quickly, etc.

[745 turbogreasel]

My finding is that whichever fuel has the cleaner at the time filter is faster.
You might be able to do a turbo swap cheaper than bosting the NA perfomance...

[tSoG-84bit]

thanks everyone for the responses. I may just take your advice malone, keep it much more simple than I had planned, and save my money for a 1.6/9 when the time comes for a new engine. another advantage tuning a spare engine, I can take my time, and still have my 'bit on the road.

thanks again everyone!

tSoG

[burn_your_money]

I'd go with a 1.6 over a 1.9, they seem cheaper to maintain. But I have no personal experience with a 1.9

[Benjamin]

in my case my compression was much lower than usual due to a grinded head deck, but the engine still started up after 1 or 2 cranks in -5 degree Celsius temperatures with a small battery and small gasser electric starter. It idled roughly for the first 15-30 secs if I remember correctly

Do you know how much the comression ratio was? or maybe a compression test?

Greetz, Benjamin

[addautomotive]

If I were you, I'd do the veggie conversion FIRST. Put your time & money into something that will SAVE you money. Then, with the money you save, buy a running 1.6TD or 1.9 TD and build it up. You can even whip up a stand to run it on, so you could swap in a tuned & running engine.

As for veggie & performance, you should NOT notice a difference between the two fuels. I certainly don't.

Having said that, I have driven converted cars that run like dogs, usually due to the same reasons:
-Air leaks. Skip compresson fitting, use barbed fittings & hose clamps
-Insufficient heat: you want ~70*C at the IP. It'll run well at 60*, but the long term effects are thought to be negetaive
-Plugged filters. Filter your fuel really well BEFORE it goes in your car. If you plug an on-board filter, you are simply not filtering well enough.

[tSoG-84bit]

well I am planning on running veggie oil first thing. I still have yet to start building my system, mainly because I am unsure which tank setup I should have. there are so many to choose from. I would like a large enough veggie tank to run 400=500 miles without a fillup, plus diesel. the frybrid system looks pretty nice, but it has things I do not want (fancy computer control), and doesn't have some features I would prefer (heated IP lines). I think that I will save some more money, and have a kit more rabbit friendly by going custom, with ideas learned from numerous kits, and homemade setups.

Right now my idea for VO is: drop the diesel tank and put in a coolant heated 10-12 gallon VO tank, with a small diesel tank in the boot, or hidden somewhere safe under the hood (if that is legal) I think HIH fuel lines are kind of risky (coolant in fuel), and definitely more work, so I will probably use HOH setup. I haven't seen much debate whether electric or coolant heated fuel filters are most effective. and instead of a second heat exchanger right before the IP, I plan on having heated IP lines (idea by fattywagons)

I know this forum is not VO oriented, but does have a good knowledge of this car, so you can hopefully improve any ideas, to better suit the car, and my goals.

thanks everyone.
tSoG

[addautomotive]

Both coolant and electric heat are effective, it's a question of which is more suitable for your type of driving. If you do a lot of short trips, a quick switchover is ideal so go electric. If you do mostly long highway commutes, or have the car running for longer distances, do FPHE. If you want the best of both worlds, go FPHE with a thermostatically controlled Vegtherm.

HoH: Woot Woot
HiH: Booooo!

I wouldn't mess with dropping your diesel tank. Put a good tank in your trunk. Easier to insulate, and makes it easy to swap your conversion into later cars.

I have seen some VERY nice tanks that were made with sheet metal and a mig welder, and I've even seen nice tanks made from camping coolers. I had mine made at the local community college. Holds 58 liters, which is good for ~900 kms.

[jtanguay]

kinda neat part about insulating your veg oil in the winter, is that it can sorta heat up your coolant if you say go shopping for an hour or so.

i may be going the route of a 1.9 head on a fully rebuilt 1.6TD block.  the piston crown will be coated with a heat reflective coating... and its not ceramic because i've heard negative things about ceramic... hopefully all goes well as i will be a guinea pig hehe

[upchuck]

i'm going the same direction with the svo conversion. and yes, this site and the folks on here are a great resource!

my project (when complete :roll: ) will be a 1.6na in a mkII jetta.  my thought for the veggie tank was to move the battery to the passenger side and then build a custom tank to fill the space where the battery was extending in the open space above the tranny - think i got that idea on here.  that way if i'm using coolant to heat the vo i wont need to run any hoses way back to the trunk.

not neccessarily a performance issue - but it seems like i've heard noise about svo causing things to wear out and clog up sooner, something to do with glycerin buildup?  but hell at $3/gallon i can afford to upgrade/replace/maintain well enough.

sounds like i need to learn more about the giles pump...

good luck!

[jtanguay]

if the veg oil doesnt heat up to around 140F then it will most likely clog the system.  

i wouldnt put a tank of fuel where the battery is either...ideally you'd want to move the battery to the trunk, and leave it either dead space up front, or install an intercooler    would make it handle much better imo.

you should also install a vw oem thermostat as well.  they keep the temperature up, which is crucial with running svo.  i've driven in a car with a cheapie thermostat... the temp drops considerably when driving fast and gusts of wind are flowing over the rad...  that would mean disaster if running svo, and your heater to keep you warm.

right now my car has the vw oem thermostat, and no matter how fast i drive or how cold it is, the cars temperature will climb to alarming levels... but thats another issue, such as my thermoswitch  :roll:.  worth every penny as i have been in cars where i had to drive 120km/h just to get heat out of the vents...  :shock: