New injectors

[Rat407]

I replaced the injectors in my jetta. It stopped my high idle, I guess the old injectors were bleeding fuel.  Anyway now I noticed that the engine has a more distinct diesel sound to it. Before it didn't really have that diesel knock but now you can really hear it.  Could this be with the new injectors that it is burning the fuel like it suppose to and more efficiently so the normal diesel sound is more noticable?  Just seems weird to be louder now.  Runs great although it did before, just had a high idle.
Thanks

[Giles@PerformanceDiesel]

Yes u r correct sir~!


With the new injectors u r now getting atomized fuel instead of raw fuel
just dripping in.  this will produce a much better combustion (explosion)
in the pre-combustion chamber that then continues into the piston area.

Giles

[Rat407]

Thanks,  That is what I thought but since I'm new to diesels just wanted to make sure. The sound isn't a bad sound to me, just a more distinct diesel sound, like what it suppose to be.

[chrissev]

Thanks,  That is what I thought but since I'm new to diesels just wanted to make sure. The sound isn't a bad sound to me, just a more distinct diesel sound, like what it suppose to be.

Where did you get your new injectors?  All I can find are rebuilt used ones, and they are expensive too!

[janb]

Where did you get your new injectors? All I can find are rebuilt used ones, and they are expensive too!

I get mine here-
Halsey import Portland, OR  -1-800-792-0081  or 503-256-3155
~$8USD  for nozzles only
~$26USD for rebuilt (New nozzles + tested)  exchange cores required

the nozzles seem to be ~$11. at a "bosch" dealer

[fspGTD]

Giles correct me if I'm wrong, but -

Louder clacking after replacing injectors with rebuilds isn't a good thing.  More clacking indicates more build-up of liquid fuel in the combustion chamber before it starts to burn.  So then when it starts to burn, because of the longer ignition lag time, there is more fuel that burns all of the sudden, "clack!" is the noise it makes.  (Same things happens on a cold engine... as the cold temperature makes the liquid fuel droplets slower to atomize.)

Also, a reduced idle RPM after installing rebuilt injectors signals that the efficiency of combustion is poorer.  The governor isn't metering a lesser amount of fuel, it's either the same amount or slightly more (as RPMs drop at idle, the very soft idle spring in the governor mechanism of the pump responds, by making the pump inject more fuel.)  That lower idle RPM should then tell you that then the efficiency of combustion is poorer since the engine needs more fuel in order to be able to idle.

Did you have these nozzles bench tested for spray pattern?  I've bought mail order a set of 4 "rebuilt" injectors before.  The shop that rebuilt them decided to spray some paint on them before putting them in plastic bags for shipping.  Well, I think a fleck of that paint must have gotten into the inlet of one of the injectors, because bottom line is, one of them squirted a stream of liquid rather than a fine mist.  Through that I learned to always test your injectors even when they're new, don't assume they're good!  Find a local diesel specialist who can do this simple procedure for you.  I found a local guy I liked so much I just buy my rebuilt injectors through him now (despite the high prices) because he is a careful neat-freak (in a good way) and lets me watch him, shows me how they spray all OK, etc.  Good luck and hope you solve the problem!

Another thing to be weary of with cheap rebuilds is the use of poor quality nozzles.  IMO, genuine bosch can't be beat.

[Rat407]

I got these injectors from Jack at vwdiesel.com. They are rebuilt Bosch injectors. He made a good point. Since I rebuilt the engine I should have the injection pump checked.  It would be my luck to get a bad injector. Of course where I live nothing is easy and close by everything is a nice long drive away. Guess it is time to pull them, order a new head, pull the injection pump and get it tested as well and just do it all at one time and hopefully be done with it.

Thanks for all the help

[fspGTD]

FYI - the bad injector I got was from the same source that Jack gets his rebuilds from: Del Co Diesel Services Inc from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  I would not recommend buying from this place.  They indeed had cheap-o Lucas nozzles inside them.  It was also very difficult to diagnose and get support from them as I am in Seattle.

Ever since that bad injector mail-order experience, I found and have used ever since a local diesel injection specialist who is more expensive, but does very good work.  I can go directly to him and see his shop, quality of his work, see the nozzles and parts being used, and have him test injectors while I wait, and get better support than through mail ordering.

Try your yellow pages under Fuel Injection equipment & service... it is not a costly service to just have the injectors tested... you remove them and bring them over, and might even be able to have tested while you wait.

Even if you live in an agricultural area, there's got to be a diesel specialist somewhere neaby to service all those tractors and farm equipment.  

[VWRacer]

Let me second Jake's comments. I have bought rebuilt injectors from the Check-Zone-Boys auto parts chains, but have never had as good luck as I have with a local truck shop. The truck shops actually work on injectors every day, and since their clientele are no-nonsense working stiffs, the shops aren't into the bling and BS of retail parts houses. Form a good relationship with one and rest easy at night...

[Rat407]

I was able to get in touch with the 3 shops local to me, well they are 65 miles out but the only three within a 100 mile radius.  The prices range from $5 to $10 just to check the injectors. If they needed rebuilt then it would cost me $15 to $20 plus parts. All three stated they have not messed with a VW injector in such a long time they were not sure of how much the parts would cost if the injectors needed them.  I also asked about bench checking my injection pump and they said that if it needed calibrated that would run around $250. For some reason it was a labor intensive process on this perticular pump, not to mention they have not messed with a VW injection pump in a long time as well.  "Oh the life in a small one horse town." They also suggested to double check pump timing that it could be advanced to far and causing the louder diesel noise. Since that is basically free I'm going to do that now.  I really need to win the lottery, oh wait NC doesn't have a lottery,  :x   oh well back to driving the gas guzzler till I can get this straight.  Now that is going to hurt, I might be better off paying the price to get the jetta back on the road.

Thanks for all the help.

[Rat407]

I went and checked my pump timing  and it was out, well from what I got on the dial indicator it was. If you translate the readings to inches I was set at .044"  I set it back down to .038" and the extra diesel clacking has been reduced significantly.  I'm new to this still so bare with me. What difference will I notice?  It still smokes but not as much from what I can tell, but then again it has only been since late last night and only drove it into work here in the dark. I can't see how one can adjust the timing by themself. I couldn't turn the engine at the crank and watch the dial indicator at the same time. Had to have the wife help. At least she doesn't mind helping but did make a comment some were on the lines of my buying a lemon.  Oh if she only knew.

Now to work on the low 8psi oil pressure problem and consumption.

Thanks for all the help.

[VWRacer]

Sounds like your timing is right there, Rat. According to my Bentley the acceptable range is .036" - .0395" (1.0mm +/- .02mm). IIRC, fspGTD wrote a while back that his dyno sessions showed that above 1.1mm (~.0427"), power dipped a bit and the engine got growly. So if you were at .044" with a worn engine, it might do as you describe.

In any case, I'll be looking forward to your report tonight after work.

Cheers! Stan

[fspGTD]

I ran my pump at 1.17mm advance for a while.  It did seem to have more part-throttle smoking and was definitely more "clattery" vs 1.00mm.  The most objectionable characteristic to the 1.17mm setting was occasional backfiring during starting!  :shock:  Below 5000RPM, I measured equivalent power output comparing the 1.00mm setting to the 1.17mm setting (on an '84 Jetta 1.6lTD pump & unions with 1.9lTD 2-stage injectors.)

When setting timing - usually what I do is make frequent trips between tool on crank bolt to rotate it, and timing inspection hole on top of the tranny bellhousing.  I agree it takes some patience (even with another person) to get the mark lined up just right!  Make sure whenever checking timing that the cold start advance lever on the back of your injector pump is fully retracted.

[chrissev]

I went and checked my pump timing  and it was out, well from what I got on the dial indicator it was. If you translate the readings to inches I was set at .044"  I set it back down to .038" and the extra diesel clacking has been reduced significantly.  I'm new to this still so bare with me. What difference will I notice?  It still smokes but not as much from what I can tell, but then again it has only been since late last night and only drove it into work here in the dark. I can't see how one can adjust the timing by themself. I couldn't turn the engine at the crank and watch the dial indicator at the same time. Had to have the wife help. At least she doesn't mind helping but did make a comment some were on the lines of my buying a lemon.  Oh if she only knew.

Now to work on the low 8psi oil pressure problem and consumption.

Thanks for all the help.

You can actually turn the engine with a ratchet on the crank bolt, with your arm reaching down the side of the engine past the pulleys to the ratchet.  It looks tight but I do that every time I set my timing.  I guess if you have really big arms it might not work.  I have my TD Jetta set at .038 and it works OK.  It was at .046 when I got it, which is right out of spec (max is .041) and it ran like sh*t.  Also had poor fuel economy.  Just took out and replaced my 380,000km timing belt tensioner today - it squeaks and you could slide a dime in the play in between the bearing and the housing.  I didn't even need to take the belt off.  I'm keeping it as a milestone to how close I came to wrecking this engine.  All for a $20 tensioner and an hour's worth of work.

[Rat407]

Well it has been a few days and about 100 miles of run with the new adjustment. I must say it is way quieter and the smoking issue is gone. Even under full throttle I don't get the black smoke like I use to at WOT. The Jetta seems to run much better. Oh on the cold start cable. It is all the down, matter of fact it isn't even hooked up to the cable. I had it hooked up when I put the engine back in bu it pulled out and is pushed back in. I made sure of that when I reset the pump timing. I need to hook it up for the up and coming cold weather. We have been getting down into the low 50's at night and it will not be long when the 30's will be here.

I can't get my arm down between the engine and body. The AC and other stuff is in the way. I was able to do that when I put it in because I didn't have any of that hooked up yet but not now.

Thanks for all the help.