Injector pump upgrades - Research and Development work

[gldgti]

Hi guys,

Well, I'm going into my 4th year of a mechanical engineering project and a 400 hour research project is upon me. I have chosen to look into the boshe VE injector pumps standard setup and figure out how to make it better - i.e better power/mpg.

at the moment, i know little about the pump itself. I have a few spare pumps, i will be able to get a 1.6 set up on an engine dyno, and have access to exhaust gas analysing gear, a T2 turbo, and a bunch of general engineering knowledge.

a lot of people stand to benefit from this project, not least of whom is me ofcourse. I really want to get a kick-butt engine built for myself. It's likely i'll put an sc-14 supercharger on it at the conclusion of the project to drop into my car, all things going well, but all the knowledge I acquire will be made available to everyone i think - all laws allowing ofcourse.

I will be looking at:

> the injector pump, and getting it to work better than it does (i know this has been done already, but its very hush hush. if the person who knows about this stuff wants to contact me and tell me what is modified to turn a stock pump into a great one, I may forgoe this part of the project in favour of pursuing more other areas, such as quantifying effects such as LPG injection, water injection, alchohol injection, biodiesel use)

> the projects main focus will be to produce from an indirect injection VW engine, some good power with low engine stress and great MPG. i wont be happy unless i can get 55-60mpg, and i will be looking closely at emissions with the hope of reducing sulphur and nitrous oxides by a large amount, whilst still getting good power.

> all of this will be done quantitatively so htat real, numerical results may be used to make real, justifyable conclusions about all the guesswork that goes on modding our diesels.

so, my question finally, is this:

Can anyone help me please about the injector pump? I need information on it in general, and if Giles does not wish to disclose information about modifying, I will respect that (after all, there is money involved). Help in any form will be much appreciated.

My motivation for this project is simple:

The IDI engine is an unexplored technological wonder which has a lot more to offer - the future requires better economy lower emmisions, but good power.

any help you guys want to give in the form of advise, information sources etc will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Aydan

[veeman]

Sounds like a very interesting project...  Not sure if this will help you at all, but here's a post with photos of the disassembly of a pump in detail.

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4353

You might also start with the SAE diesel paper on the VW diesel and Bosch documentation on the pump.  Sometimes those documents help provide a solid "overview" of the basic systems involved.   I'll check for those links.

Next.. How will you gauge mpg if you've got your engine on a stand?  Do you plan to simply do "before and after" driving tests or will you be monitoring consumption on the stand somehow?

There are quite a few people here who know exactly how to modify an IDI pump just as you're describing.  It's pretty detailed, exacting work and understandably, some people offer this as a paid service.  For this reason, exact details of the procedures and work performed are not readily available.  There's special test bench diagnostic equipment for pump work and often custom machined internals.   It could also be that some of the "data" is not meaningful to the "average" shadetree diesel guy like me...

Check around in the archives and I'm sure you'll start to find what modifications have yielded the best results...    Keep us informed on your progress.

[RabbitGTDguy]

This does sound like an interesting subject and I'd be more than willing to help in anyway I can. I've modified a few of these pumps, most recently the 4bt pump to work with the mTDI I built, but also have done several gov. mods to friends cars and head upgrades...

I have some literature that I could share with you. Namely, the actual Bosch PDF manual for the VE pump and possibly a few other bits as well as answering any personal questions you might have. PM me or email me, sounds like alot of fun!

Joe

[Black Smokin' Diesel]

Looks like a very interesting project. I'm a noob when it comes to pump modding but from what I've read here the most common upgrades are bigger plunger and 1.9TD camplate. That's pretty much all I know lol.

Good luck with the project, I hope you meet and exceed your goals Can't wait to see the results

[gldgti]

Andrew - thanks for the feedback - its good to keep the ideas flowing and keep our science honest.

to the milage question, lets talk metric then - under 5L/100km or 20km/L would be ideal for me.

veeman - i have a mk1 (A1) golf (rabbit). the dyno setup at the uni allows me to measure fuel flow instantaneously and of course, overall. for mpg testing i would hope to do this with both simulated highway loading on the dyno, and with real driving once dyno testing had finished.

RabbitGTDguy - any info you can share with me on what you actually do when modding a pump would be much appreciated. Will pm you you soon.

BS'D - thanks for the encouragement!

There are quite a few people here who know exactly how to modify an IDI pump just as you're describing. It's pretty detailed, exacting work and understandably, some people offer this as a paid service. For this reason, exact details of the procedures and work performed are not readily available.

i would dearly love to learn these things but i feel that i will probably have to learn it myself for the reason you gave....unfortunately. no doubt it will be a great learning experience though

[jtanguay]

well if you want cheap hp/mpg check out www.oilextreme.com

i'm still in the process of getting a dyno to check a car - before & after.

they also sell diesel extreme which gives better hp/mileage.  i think it would be great if you could actually do some real dyno testing on a diesel, and find out if and how much improvement their products have.

with specialized machines you can easily test hp etc on a motor that is basically bolted to a test bench.  pretty slick equipment if you have access to it...  would suck if you had to keep removing the motor just to change some stupid little thing  :lol:

[Benjamin]

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2329&start=0

Greetz, Benjamin

[HarryMann]

to the milage question, lets talk metric then - under 5L/100km or 20km/L would be ideal for me.

You really should be talking test bench SFC (Specific Fuel Comsumption) figures, not MPG which are pretty meaningless (and extremely hard to quantify accurately, even for a specific vehcile type)...

SFC in lbs/BHP/Hr is what you need to measure, and compare before and after figures for gains.

It is normal to produce a Torque/RPM/SFC map fro comparison puposes.

Rgds

[firestorm13666]

What about ditching the IP and turning the IDI into a common rail?

[gldgti]

i wont have the time or money to turn it into a common rail job.... ahh well.

i will definately be making real specific fuel consumption measurements, but as a matter of comparison i may ocnvert these into a theoretical mpg type measurement - for interpretation by he layman etc.

[ezekiel]

I recently picked up a book off of Amazon.com.

Bosch has books out for alot of their stuff, official Bosch released books.  I got one specific to the distributor-type diesel fuel-injection pumps.  (they also have them for the in-line type, VW diesels use the distributor type)
http://www.amazon.com/Distributor-Type-Diesel-Injection-Pumps/dp/0837611032/sr=8-1/qid=1163249397/ref=sr_1_1/104-9175437-6719116?ie=UTF8&s=books

it appears that they only have one in stock, so someone may want to jump on it.  I haven't had a chance to really get into it, but it looks like it'll be of some use.

It covers both the Axial-piston pumps (VP29 and VP30) and the radial-piston pumps (VP44)

I even just learned that the LDA was added to their pumps in 1983!  haha.

anyway, lots of diagrams, cutaways, and in general, tons of explanation for how they work.  For $25, I couldn't pass it up.

There's some testing procedures in the back too, they don't seem too...comprehensive, though.

[burn_your_money]

ezekiel I have one of those books on hold from amazon. I bought 3 differant ones (total $75) and once they are all in stock they will ship them out. I can't wait

[gldgti]

thanks for the heads up - that could be a very worthwhile investment for my project - i''ll check em out.

cheers

aydan