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Author Topic: Torque  (Read 4206 times)

October 07, 2004, 04:01:05 pm

aidan

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« on: October 07, 2004, 04:01:05 pm »
Have been reading through a few threads on here, reading mostly though about bhp figures, have seen a justified 120bhp mentioned.

What i'm wondering though is at what rpm this is achieved, I imagine, again from what i've read, its quite high i.e 5000 ish?

I also imagine this will result in 2500-3000rpm peak torque figure, which being quite high for a diesel in my experience, maybe in the 150-160lb/ft territory?

Is the only way to better this by using a 'smaller' turbo with more boost to get that same peak bhp at lower revs, but giving a higher torque figure at lower revs?

Also, slightly off that topic, those of you who have done those mods to get the high bhp figures, what kind of mpg are you getting?



Reply #1October 07, 2004, 04:55:29 pm

dieselpower

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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2004, 04:55:29 pm »
well im not so sure about your first question but im estamating that i have around that much power and i get about 33 mpg or 8.5L per 100km. anyway before my mods i was getting around the low 40's. and thats just because my driving style has changed i think tho. because instead of full throttle on a stock engine u can always just use half throttle and get the same mpg and acceleration as before.

mark
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because real cars don't have sparkplugs

Reply #2October 07, 2004, 05:57:31 pm

DVST8R

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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2004, 05:57:31 pm »
I was one of those people b4 I pulled the jetta off the road to get it awn like donkey kong mods. I was running a shimed governer pump turned up to the point where it would idle at almost 1300rpm with the idle screw right out (almost at runaway), stock garrett turbo at 23psi (still smokin) all of the other tricks with the a cut cone, star wheel almost at the top, intercooled, custom dp, and 3" mandrel bent exhaust ect... (still not enough hence pulling it off the road). I dragged over a mesuared 1/4mile (not timed) sevral times with a friend of mine that dynoed his modded 16V (133hp at the wheels) with us swaping cars to take out driver differance and my jetta would consistantly beat him by a car length + over the 1/4 mile (10 plus races differnt conditions ect...) my best milage was in the low 40's on the freeway doing like 110km/h, the worst was a local autox practise at about 23mpg. As formaking more torque well either swap out for the little turbo, fined a vnt turbo (lots of custom work but if you have the skils or the cash to pay someone with the skills well worth it. Other then that nitrous on a big turbo  :twisted:
The Brett of the board...



The Dark Side of Beauty.[/i]

Reply #3October 08, 2004, 02:01:59 pm

aidan

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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2004, 02:01:59 pm »
Economy sounds pretty poor, are those figures in US and different to my UK mpg?
Is that 16v you mention an A2/mk2?
I think i'll have a go at the modifications mentioned until the engine lets go, then i'll get myself a 1.9TD and put that in. That should bring peak torque rpm down hopefully.
Have you taken any times of the car? I'm really hoping I can get similar performance to a 150PD mk4, maybe the low weight in comparison will help.
Finally, has someone actually got a VNT to work on these? I have access to a cheap PD130 Vnt if I want it.
Thanks for your replies so far

Reply #4October 08, 2004, 02:48:53 pm

RedRotors

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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2004, 02:48:53 pm »
The PD130 casted turbo won't fit in a MK2 body, the turbo will hit the rear engine mount. If you want to run a VNT, find like me a VNT from an Euro Passat.  The turbo is not casted with the manifold. so with a custom manifold, you will be able to run this little turbo.. Half of the work is completed to run a VNT on an IDI engine.. Im going electronically, with a modulated N75 controled with a uC and a boost sensor.. But you won't have the function ' boost of demand ' .. You will need a TPS, so this function will be added in the next version of my software..

Marc/
2k1 Golf TDI, 11mm pump, HFLOX Warp 5, VNT17, Wavetrac, 4" Lift
91' VW Golf Country
94' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 5 spds, 191's, 215hp injectors, SB Clutch
03' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 6 spds, MBPR 4 ", custom intake, Smarty Jr

-> www.mikrotuning.com <-
-> www.hflox.com <-

Reply #5October 08, 2004, 03:32:57 pm

DVST8R

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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2004, 03:32:57 pm »
Yes those are US figures so they are differnt to the UK ones. No at full out race it doesnt get very good milage, but still not bad considering what I was getting out of it. Crusing is still quite respectible. Yes his car is a '92 MkII 16V. Unfortunately I never timed it. It was more of a you spent that much on your car and mine is still quicker, sorta thing. Both cars still have full interiors, his has big bumpers, mine small , mine is a coupe, his is a four door, he has 15" bbs mags, I have 13" stock steelies, We both weigh about 200lbs. Over all his car probably weighs a bit more, but pretty close in all other aspects. When it goes back on the road probably another year, I am hoping to be runing a manually controlled vnt (somthing around the pd 150 size) compounded to a maunualy controlled vvt off of a ford 6.0L power stroke, or the vnt turbo off the lly (new version) of the 6.6L duramax. with a modded fire wall , cage, two race seats fuel cell no interior, coilovers ect..., borderline street leagal race car. But we will see how it goes right now I am just deciding wether I want to use this shell or an MkI GTI. I plan to spend between 15K-20K over the next year or so on this, but like everything I have to take it one day at a time  :wink:
The Brett of the board...



The Dark Side of Beauty.[/i]

Reply #6October 08, 2004, 08:24:38 pm

aidan

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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2004, 08:24:38 pm »
Redrotors - the engine is currently in an A2/mk2 but as it failed the mot today, the engine will hopefully be going in to a mk1 soon. I guess even less room for a normal PD130 vnt and possibly not even a passat one?

DVST8ER - We don't get those V8(or are they v6?) diesels here, how many of those turbos do they use on that engine? Is there a page somewhere detailing how these vnt's can be used on our engines?

Reply #7October 09, 2004, 03:47:31 am

DVST8R

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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2004, 03:47:31 am »
The secondary turbo's are from v8 1ton diesel trucks they are used in a single configuration (very common in North America) the smaller primary will be an automotive one simaller sized to a pd150 turbo.

As for the VNT control I had posted this once b4 but here it is agian, its not mine, but a copy and paste from a site that i cant remeber the url to this portion is saved on my hard drive:

OIL SUPPLY

    This turbo needs .3 gpm of oil @ 30 psi. minimum at full power. Any oil that you can use in the engine will work for the turbo. The oil drain uses one bolt and seals with an O ring. A flat flange with a gasket will also work. A .5 inch minimum inside diameter oil drain is recommended and must be within 30 degrees of vertical with no "sink traps" that will allow oil to puddle.

CARBON SEALS

    The unit uses a carbon seal and therefore be used with a carburetor upstream in a draw through installation,although the Chrysler was fuel injected. Except for the VNT turbine, this unit is very similar to a standard Garrett T25. The compressor, bearings and seals are interchangeable with T25 turbos.

WATER CONNECTIONS

    The water cooling is intended for passenger car applications where the turbo is bolted to a heavy cast manifold withlittle airflow and many miles of stop and go service. The water cooling is not needed on a race car that isn't driven daily. Likewise, the water is not needed when the turbo is mounted on headers that don't store heat like a casting can. The water fitting is designed to mate with a steel tube flare nut. These can be removed and a different adapter can be threaded directly into the pipe threads and in the housing. Remember that the water is only for cooling during shutdown, the oil cools the bearings when the engine is running. When the engine is shutdown the heatstored in the cast exhaust manifold "soaks back" into the turbo causing the water in the center housing to boil.

    When this happens it is important that the bubble that forms can escape upwards causing water to flow in from below and allowing the cycle to repeat itself. The upper hose should connect to the engine at a higher point than thelower water connection. The water flow direction while the engine is running is not important. It is when the engine stops that the boiling occurs.

TEST INSTALLATION AND VNT CONTROL

    To determine the ease of controlling the actuator and to discover any installation problems in general, the author installed a VNT25 on his sandrail (Dunebuggy). The engine is a 2 liter German Ford. To keep the installation assimple as possible, the turbo was mounted on an old Roto-Master cast iron manifold that was intended for a T04B. Drilling the bolt holes out to 9/16" allowed the turbine to fit 3 of the 4 bolt holes and sealed acceptably for the test. The turbo pressurized a Motorcraft 121 two barrel carb in a simple "blow through" configuration. The pressure side (small tube) of the VNT actuator was connected to the hose fitting in the compressor housing.

    The results were instant boost and easy wheelstands in 1st and 2nd gear. The vanes were closed at idle and it was very quiet, even without a muffler. The VNT limited the boost to 12 psi without any further controls during thequick " around the block" bonzai runs. (This control point is a function of engine size and flow and may be different for your application.

    The addition of paddle tires and some steep dunes, however, changed things. The engine was not fully loaded onsuch a light vehicle on flat pavement. On a steep incline the boost would rise to over 20 psi as the engine became fully loaded. The solution was to install a conventional wastegate to control boost when the flow range of the VNT was exceeded. This is recommended for all VNT applications.

BOOST CONTROLS

    Chrysler did not need a wastegate because the backpressure of the stock exhaust limited turbine power. TheSandrail used a very low backpressure 2.5" exhaust system. The Sandrail installation simply ran a hose from the compressor housing to the pressure port of the actuator. Do not make the mistake of assuming that the larger 1/4" port is for pressure because it is the same size as the fittings on the compressor housing. The 1/4" port is for vacuum. The smaller 3/16" port is for pressure. Pressurizing the vacuum port forces the vanes closed at all times.

    They will eventually plug up with carbon, causing the " potato in the tailpipe" effect. If your engine runs poorly or won't start again after your first test run, check the actuator hoses. The boost setting can be mechanically adjustedwithin a limited range by shortening the rod length. Make sure the diaphragm does not bottom out before reaching the full stroke. It can also be adjusted with an electronic adjustable boost control system that is designed to control a conventional wastegate.

    A pressure regulator can also be used as a "boost over boost" control to raise the actuator pressure control point just as it is used on a wastegate. In a nutshell you run a controlled amount of boost to the "wrong" side of theactuator to cancel out part of the pressure on the boost side. Each psi put on the back of the diaphragm raises the boost setting by 1 psi and so on. This is plumbed by hooking up the actuator pressure port to a boost signal (i.e. the fitting on the compressor housing) directly as usual. Then hook up a second from the same boost signal to a pressure regulator and then to the vacuum side of the actuator. Setting the pressure regulator to 1 psi raises the boost `1 psi etc...

    In an off road or race only application this simple system will suffice. As a minimum a " part throttle open" controlcan be easily achieved by connecting manifold vacuum through a check valve to the vacuum side ( big tube) of the actuator. The check valve is to block boost. To prevent any pressure from being trapped between the check valve and the actuator, a .030" bleed orifice to atmosphere should be used. This will open the nozzles when vacuum is present at idle and part throttle.

    This has some important benefits:

    1. It cycles the vanes every time the throttle is depressed which helps them stay free of carbon.
    2. It prevents excessive EGR due to higher then normalbackpressure which affects idle quality.
    3. It improves fuel economy by eliminating backpressure caused by the turbo.
    4. It prevents part throttle boost which heats the intake air unnecessarily.
    5. It provides a more linear feel to the throttle pedal position.

Hope this helps some :D
The Brett of the board...



The Dark Side of Beauty.[/i]

Reply #8October 10, 2004, 12:55:20 pm

aidan

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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2004, 12:55:20 pm »
I fancy having a go of that someday most likely after i've finished college and i'm earning some money, but that won't be until a 1.9 comes along. I'm hoping a gt15 might be a better bet at the moment, should be plenty of them about round here, and i'm on a tight budget.

Reply #9October 14, 2004, 12:46:57 pm

RedRotors

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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2004, 12:46:57 pm »
Quote from: "aidan"
Redrotors - the engine is currently in an A2/mk2 but as it failed the mot today, the engine will hopefully be going in to a mk1 soon. I guess even less room for a normal PD130 vnt and possibly not even a passat one?


If you drop the A2 engine into a Mk1, the turbo will fit, because in a Mk1, the engine support is on the side of the engine and not at the rear.. It's
tight, but it fits... I think that someone tried on his rocco..

Marc/
2k1 Golf TDI, 11mm pump, HFLOX Warp 5, VNT17, Wavetrac, 4" Lift
91' VW Golf Country
94' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 5 spds, 191's, 215hp injectors, SB Clutch
03' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 6 spds, MBPR 4 ", custom intake, Smarty Jr

-> www.mikrotuning.com <-
-> www.hflox.com <-

Reply #10November 01, 2004, 12:00:48 pm

aidan

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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2004, 12:00:48 pm »
Sorry to drag this one up again.
The gt15 I mentioned above came in the post today. Clearly advertised as a 'wastegated vw tdi garrett turbo', but when I opened the box I saw the part number, VNT15... . So instead of arranging sending it back I come to this thread;
Has anyone managed to get one working on their car yet?
Reading back through the sandrail info, can it simply be made to work with that hose from the compressor to the actuator and a specific exhaust size? If it can only reliably work with a wastegate i'll just get a gt15.

Tdiclub recommend a gt20/vnt15 combination. As the gt20 compressor is relatively large could I get away with a slightly larger exhaust without resulting excess boost pressure?