Intercooler???

[larry104]

I've read here and elsewhere about the benefits of intercoolers. Most of the information is anecdotal and "seat of the pants," with few actual numbers. Has anyone done a dyno run before and after intercooler installation?

I'm in the process of putting my 92 EcoDiesel back together and contemplating an intercooler. Other mods to the car include a Giles pump, free-flowing 2.25 in. exhaust, cold-air intake, EGT gauge, manual boost controller and boost gauge, fresh head gasket and stretch bolts, and taller gearing. I plan to run 15 psi boost with the stock K14 turbo.

I have two possible intercoolers. A Saab 900 Blackstone SMIC fits ahead of the A/C condensor. It gets decent air flow from the bottom grill opening. I also have an all-aluminum cross-flow FMIC that could fit a bit lower in the grill with a little massaging, again ahead of the A/C condensor. I'd have to remove or perforate the lower bumper lip to get air to it. In both cases, the piping runs are long and tortuous, with multiple bends. My guess is there would be a couple psi drop through all that. The turbo would have to make that much more boost  to overcome the loss, and hence more heat. And what about lag? Then I look at the stock turbo-to-intake run, which is all of about 5 inches long.

And one more observation. I've seen cars with an FMIC, but the inlet air comes from under the hood though, say, a K&N air filter.  If the goal is to lower inlet air temp, then why send heated air into the turbo? Wouldn't a cold-air inet and IC give the best results?

I guess my question is, is an intercooler worth the trouble, given that there's no easy or clean way to install one in this car? Would I not get more bang with the exhaust and cold-air inlet?

[jtanguay]

intercooling is always better than no intercooling.  

Go ahead and install it, and do comparison runs with/without it.  You will see less smoke, and more power.  To see how well the intercooler is working, feel it with your hand. The intercooler should be quite hot.  (maybe even enough to burn a finger)

I will agree with you on the fact that sending the hot engine compartment air into your motor isn't a great idea, so start there.  Get a fresh air inlet installed, then install an intercooler.

Some guys on this board will say that water injection is a great way of intercooling your motor, and I will agree.  No piping necessary, and if you add methanol, you get a bit of a power increase .    But then again, why not BOTH  .

Lag with a K14?  With a Giles pump, from what everyone says, there should be no lag.  Granted the additional piping will simulate additional lag, but it should be very minimal.  

Some people use thermostatically controlled fans to cool their intercoolers as well.  I just bought a really nice thermostat to which I'm still contemplating on what to use it for.  (would be nice when you are sitting in traffic with a hot intercooler, keeping it cool for your launch on the green :lol:  but also keeping the fan from running while you are on the highway)

EGT's will drop by around 100-200F pre-turbine as well.  I bought a nice one from aircraft spruce.  It is quite remarkable at how sensitive, and quick responding it is.   Highly recommended!  (do a search on it, I forget which kit I bought - gauge + probe)

[Sparkman]

Not much to add, mainly just posting to subscribe to this thread.

Nice to see someone else on here with one of the rare 92 ecos!

I have purchased an LDA equipped pump for mine, but I'm not sure I can swing the Giles rebuild.  I hope to go to a metal head gasket and 15 PSI, and a PP downpipe and 2.5".  Water injection looks very interesting.

Very interested in the progress on your car larry104.  Best of luck.

[larry104]

intercooling is always better than no intercooling.  

Go ahead and install it, and do comparison runs with/without it.  You will see less smoke, and more power.  To see how well the intercooler is working, feel it with your hand. The intercooler should be quite hot.  (maybe even enough to burn a finger)

I will agree with you on the fact that sending the hot engine compartment air into your motor isn't a great idea, so start there.  Get a fresh air inlet installed, then install an intercooler.

Some guys on this board will say that water injection is a great way of intercooling your motor, and I will agree.  No piping necessary, and if you add methanol, you get a bit of a power increase .    But then again, why not BOTH  .

Lag with a K14?  With a Giles pump, from what everyone says, there should be no lag.  Granted the additional piping will simulate additional lag, but it should be very minimal.  

Some people use thermostatically controlled fans to cool their intercoolers as well.  I just bought a really nice thermostat to which I'm still contemplating on what to use it for.  (would be nice when you are sitting in traffic with a hot intercooler, keeping it cool for your launch on the green :lol:  but also keeping the fan from running while you are on the highway)

EGT's will drop by around 100-200F pre-turbine as well.  I bought a nice one from aircraft spruce.  It is quite remarkable at how sensitive, and quick responding it is.   Highly recommended!  (do a search on it, I forget which kit I bought - gauge + probe)

Well, guess I'll try the Saab unit because it takes the least amount of screwing with. As you suggested, I'll measure EGT with and without the IC. I'm installing the thermocouple post turbine, which I undertand is about 300 degrees F cooler than pre-turbine. We'll see.  Thanks for the help.

[larry104]

Not much to add, mainly just posting to subscribe to this thread.

Nice to see someone else on here with one of the rare 92 ecos!

I have purchased an LDA equipped pump for mine, but I'm not sure I can swing the Giles rebuild.  I hope to go to a metal head gasket and 15 PSI, and a PP downpipe and 2.5".  Water injection looks very interesting.

Very interested in the progress on your car larry104.  Best of luck.

Yeah, I think like 147 were sold in the U.S. that year, if the numbers on the Internet are right. I saved the original pump, and found a pump with an LDA. Giles said it had seen better days, but he was able to salvage it.

Thanks, I'll post some progress pics soon. Just popped the motor back in Saturday and discovered that VW sold me the wrong inner CV joint gaskets. Another week delay. :roll:

[vwgirl82]

okay, so now i'm going to sound like a complete idiot because i have no idea about this kind of stuff.  i am new to the whole diesel thing, but i was wondering what the best choice for an intercooler would be.  i see you have two different choices, but no one really has sadi the best choice?  does it depend on the motor?  sorry i sound like a dumb girl.  but i am used to the mk1 gas stuff lol.  please help.  thanks

<3linds

[anarchyx34]

I'm curious about the saab intercooler as well. I didnt think it was possible to fit anything ahead of the condensor. I was thinking of doing a SMIC, possibly a 1.8t or Corrado intercooler on the drivers side, and cut out the hole where the fog light would have gone had it been a GLI or GTI. Not sure how effective it would be or even if that intercooler would fit in that spot to begin with.

[HarryMann]

In both cases, the piping runs are long and tortuous, with multiple bends. My guess is there would be a couple psi drop through all that. The turbo would have to make that much more boost to overcome the loss, and hence more heat. And what about lag?

This is a moot point, despite the answers above... the lag is not really the issue, a minor problem.
If those runs really are long and tortuous, it depends whether you are after power or longevity. If the intercooler isn't large or well fed enough with cool air, then your losses could as good as cancel out any gains, especially as the turbo may be operating off-design to recover that loss.

But an intercooled design will nearly always give lower EGTs, hence longevity - why not first fit an EGT pre turbo, to see how hight they are going. If you aren't anywhere near the limit yet, maybe read on...

Have you looked into a turbo that runs at a design point giving say 5% better efficiency at higher boost. That could surprisingly make  more difference, though lag might rear its head, and if you go too far, surge.

There's a lot to be said for 5" inlet pipe between turbo and engine, especially if its insulated well form the exhaust manifold. Some fresh air flow in that area does no real harm!

[Kudagra]

okay, so now i'm going to sound like a complete idiot because i have no idea about this kind of stuff.  i am new to the whole diesel thing, but i was wondering what the best choice for an intercooler would be.  i see you have two different choices, but no one really has sadi the best choice?  does it depend on the motor?  sorry i sound like a dumb girl.  but i am used to the mk1 gas stuff lol.  please help.  thanks

<3linds

the hardest part of installing an intercooler on these cars seems to be fitting it somewhere it will get a nice airflow. Being as he has A/c (as do I) its going to make it harder. Any intercooler you can get to fit in the proper place is better then NO intercooler. I have searched on where to put my all aluminum Saab I/c and so far its looking like where the battery is (with ducting) or low on the passenger side. But there it will probably get trashed with rocks. Oh unless you arnt running much boost (why??) Id stay  away from the plastic tank stuff.

Diesel stuff is alot more simple then gas since you just dont have to worry about an ignition system. I love it at the pumps when I dont shut my truck off and people flip out. I tell them  it only takes about 23 atmosphers to ignite the stuff. Ive seen matches thrown in it.

I might just go with a FMIC. Ill need a big bumper to hide it.

[RabbitJockey]

i thought it was funn recently someone told they were gonna put a match in my tank, i was like go ahead haha

[larry104]

I'm curious about the saab intercooler as well. I didnt think it was possible to fit anything ahead of the condensor. I was thinking of doing a SMIC, possibly a 1.8t or Corrado intercooler on the drivers side, and cut out the hole where the fog light would have gone had it been a GLI or GTI. Not sure how effective it would be or even if that intercooler would fit in that spot to begin with.

 The Saab 900 Blackstone SMIC does, in fact, fit ahead of the condenser on the driver's side, snugged against the inner portion of the frame rail. The top tank butts against the lower c-shaped rail of the radiator support. Cut the vertical portion of the "c" shape the width of the IC, weld in a thin plate to stiffen it, and drill the plate for the IC's two plastic locating posts. Use self-tapping screws and spacers in the posts for the top mount, and make a bracket to engage the IC's lower, single bushed mount. The tubes point to the driver's side. The lower tube runs at about the same level and parallel with the bumper lip. The tubes make a 180 deg turn and go through holes cut in the vertical portion of plastic engine guard beneath the battery box. From there, they wind up to the (reversed) engine intake manifold and turbo inlet.

It will work but, again, the tubing runs are long and airflow to the IC is marginal. I'm instead going to make a modified (and hopefully improved) version of the GTD intercooler setup. The tubing runs are straight and about 3 ft. long.

[VelocityConservation]

Larry, are you going to make the GTD setup with the Blackstone or another intercooler?

[larry104]

Larry, are you going to make the GTD setup with the Blackstone or another intercooler?

The Blackstone.

[Hillshy]

interesting topic,

when i got my 1.6td gtd engine i didnt get the intercooler included, i managed to find an intercooler from a rover 820 fastback. its a 200 bhp 2 ltr diesel so it should more than man enough for the job i hope, here is a link I found while reading up on intercoolers it has pictures to reference against. it may help in the search for the right one..

http://www.student.kun.nl/p.oonincx/Intercooler.html

[HarryMann]

Good link that Hillshy...

It has been said that some oil coolers, suitably plated to box the core in, have about the right core blockage ratio and fluid channels to make small air~water intercoolers.

Anyway, seems I'm the only one playing Devil's Advocate above