Author Topic: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated  (Read 7761 times)

April 09, 2023, 03:47:57 pm

33B

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mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« on: April 09, 2023, 03:47:57 pm »
Right,

So I've been preparing my car for a m-tdi swap by upgrading suspension, brakes and so on..
It's a Passat '87 with a 1.6td mounted longitudinally, front suspension is completely out of an Audi 80 B4 (which came with 1Z). I'm looking at these 3 options 1Z, AHU or AFN. What are the pros and cons of each engine? The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?

And also what are my IP options? I've heard of 300TD LR pumps, kind of rare here. Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application? This engine was used in 2000s Jeep Cherokee.

Thanks
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 02:41:17 pm by 33B »


1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #1April 14, 2023, 05:47:17 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Need some help figuring out what engine to use for mTDI swap
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2023, 05:47:17 pm »
What are the pros and cons of each engine?

The longblocks are basically the same.  I believe the AHU/AFN pistons are a better design, but not enough of a difference to be concerned.  I'd get whichever is available for a decent price.

Quote
The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.

1Z/AHU/AFN should bolt up in place of the 1.6TD.  One thing to keep in mind is that the 1.9 blocks are ~13mm taller than the 1.6 blocks and the difference is at the head gasket surface.  That difference can cause issues with the exhaust or intake fitting as both mount to the head and their mounting position would be changed by the block height difference.
 
Quote
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
The exhaust manifold will fit fine.  The intake ports are a different shape between the 1.6 (oval) and 1.9 (D-shaped) engines.  The 1.6 intakes will mount up to the 1.9, but the port mismatch will cause excessive turbulence and hurt flow/performance.

Quote
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
The 1.6 and 1.9 pumps look similar but will NOT interchange!  There are several differences including the size of the hole in the block and size of the drive gear.
 
Quote
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?
Yes, but treat it like it is made of glass or the torque of an mTDI will force the swap sooner than later. 

Quote
Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application?
I'm not familiar with that pump so can't really say.  If you post/link pics I could probably say more accurately. 

The following criteria are needed for a direct swap mTDI pump:
-from a direct injection engine that has a similar rpm range
-triangular mounting flange at sprocket end of the pump case
-clockwise rotation of sprocket/shaft
-accelerator shaft/lever on the correct side of the pump and with the correct rotation direction

Each of those criteria can usually be determined by looking at the exterior of the pump if you know what to look for.

Reply #2April 14, 2023, 06:37:37 pm

chi1337

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Re: Need some help figuring out what engine to use for mTDI swap
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2023, 06:37:37 pm »
Considering that Renault pump, get it's number; for example the 1.6D has:

0460 494 131 or
0460 494 052

etc etc

the 6th number (9) is the plunger size. For mTDI you need at least 10 mm, the number would look like;

0460 404 052  for 10mm plunger
0460 414 052  for 11mm plunger
0460 424 052  for 12mm plunger

Reply #3April 15, 2023, 03:23:16 pm

33B

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Re: Need some help figuring out what engine to use for mTDI swap
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2023, 03:23:16 pm »
What are the pros and cons of each engine?

The longblocks are basically the same.  I believe the AHU/AFN pistons are a better design, but not enough of a difference to be concerned.  I'd get whichever is available for a decent price.

Quote
The reason I'm looking at these three and not newer is because of an easier swap. Same block more or less (or am I wrong), my thought process is that im gonna use the same mounts for the engine.

1Z/AHU/AFN should bolt up in place of the 1.6TD.  One thing to keep in mind is that the 1.9 blocks are ~13mm taller than the 1.6 blocks and the difference is at the head gasket surface.  That difference can cause issues with the exhaust or intake fitting as both mount to the head and their mounting position would be changed by the block height difference.
 
Quote
Would 1.6 manifolds fit, if yes would they be restricting airflow?
The exhaust manifold will fit fine.  The intake ports are a different shape between the 1.6 (oval) and 1.9 (D-shaped) engines.  The 1.6 intakes will mount up to the 1.9, but the port mismatch will cause excessive turbulence and hurt flow/performance.

Quote
Does 1.6 vacuum pump fit?
The 1.6 and 1.9 pumps look similar but will NOT interchange!  There are several differences including the size of the hole in the block and size of the drive gear.
 
Quote
Could my stock transmission and clutch work with the 1.9 for a while until i source a good Passat 5/audi a4 b5 transmission?
Yes, but treat it like it is made of glass or the torque of an mTDI will force the swap sooner than later. 

Quote
Could a 2.1L Renault diesel IP work for this application?
I'm not familiar with that pump so can't really say.  If you post/link pics I could probably say more accurately. 

The following criteria are needed for a direct swap mTDI pump:
-from a direct injection engine that has a similar rpm range
-triangular mounting flange at sprocket end of the pump case
-clockwise rotation of sprocket/shaft
-accelerator shaft/lever on the correct side of the pump and with the correct rotation direction

Each of those criteria can usually be determined by looking at the exterior of the pump if you know what to look for.

Thank you very much!!!

Considering that Renault pump, get it's number; for example the 1.6D has:

0460 494 131 or
0460 494 052

etc etc

the 6th number (9) is the plunger size. For mTDI you need at least 10 mm, the number would look like;

0460 404 052  for 10mm plunger
0460 414 052  for 11mm plunger
0460 424 052  for 12mm plunger


0 460 494 315

So it cant work for this application. Pictures here https://www.megaparts.eu/en/product/1457593590
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #4April 15, 2023, 03:43:55 pm

33B

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Re: Need some help figuring out what engine to use for mTDI swap
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2023, 03:43:55 pm »
Since ive posted this, i've found a 1.9 afn for 200bucks complete w/o ac compressor (bracket still there) and I have also found the 300td LR IP which is also 200bucks. What will I need to make this IP work with this engine (sprockets, brackets etc.)?
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #5April 20, 2023, 02:45:02 pm

33B

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2023, 02:45:02 pm »
Guys I bought an Audi A4 B5 1.9tdi afn for parts. I'm gonna pull the engine and trans and sell the rest. Next up is purchasing the LR pump. I'm gonna post regular updates as i proceed.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 12:09:28 pm by 33B »
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #6April 21, 2023, 12:48:35 pm

fatmobile

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2023, 12:48:35 pm »
What is the US equivalent of the AFN block?
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #7April 21, 2023, 01:37:17 pm

Dennis Froelich

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2023, 01:37:17 pm »
1Z or AHU is the U.S. version of that engine. Upgraded a bit though. AHU and AFN got better pistons over the 1Z.
79 Golf GTD
96 Golf GTD(TDI)

Reply #8July 26, 2023, 11:57:30 am

33B

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2023, 11:57:30 am »
Late update on mTDI build.
Finally managed to get some free time to pull the engine and trans from the audi (to be exact i pulled the car apart around the engine hehe), also LR 300 pump arrived today. I think I have everything to start building this thing.
Pictures include the LR pump, the engine and the guinea pig I'm gonna operate on.

https://imgtr.ee/image/lr.rgxob
https://imgtr.ee/image/p.rgZO2
https://imgtr.ee/image/mot.rg2Qh





« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 12:07:31 pm by 33B »
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #9July 28, 2023, 12:09:25 am

fatmobile

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2023, 12:09:25 am »
 Looks like the pump has a throttle position sensor and the stop solenoid isn't all covered in a plastic shield like one that I got.
 I'd rather see a side view of your passat than a picture of it on it's side, ha.

 That was a called a quantum over here right?
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #10August 12, 2023, 11:47:44 am

33B

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2023, 11:47:44 am »
Yes sir Quantum in the US. Hehe, I'll post next time with it not on it's side.

I have mounted the LR pump. Bracket was widened for IP to fit. AFN IP sprocket swapped on LR IP. LR IP three holes for mounting onto the bracket widened with a hand file to the dimensions of AFN IP holes so it can be timed. Also rear bracket swapped over and AFN delivery valves.

Tried starting it and it's trying but it's not timed right, maybe firing on one cylinder  :-\
Need help with timing this IP.  Specs etc..
Is the timing mark on the AFN sprocket still accurate?

For now i want it roughly timed so it can start. After that im gonna replace all the seals and belts. With a new timing belt im gonna precisely time it.







« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 01:09:10 pm by 33B »
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #11August 12, 2023, 01:41:04 pm

33B

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 01:41:04 pm »
Okay so found the post about timing. Key should be pointing at the #1 delivery valve. Did i get that right? What about timing advance, read some posts saying it should be 1.25 others saying 1mm?
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #12August 13, 2023, 03:17:07 pm

33B

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2023, 03:17:07 pm »
It's alive. Bad quality video, family member was recording me without my knowledge. But hey first start video.
Before the recording started, it started and revved up on it's own. Most likely stuck internals of IP from sitting for too long. That's the reason i was not too keen on touching the throttle at first (ready to cover the intake with a block of wood).
Rattling/grinding noise is from the cover plate thats situated behind sprockets, intermediate shaft sprocket grinding on the plate, also valve cover rattling since it isn't bolted down. 

https://youtu.be/XOFQvvjPwl0
1987 Passat B2 (33B)- 1.6TD JR, Audi 80 b4 front suspension and power steering. 280mm brake discs with 54mm calipers front. Rear MK3 disc setup with golf mk5 calipers.

Reply #13August 14, 2023, 06:20:57 pm

fatmobile

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2023, 06:20:57 pm »
 Nice to hear it suddenly start and run after all that cranking.
 
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #14August 14, 2023, 09:40:57 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: mTDI Passat b2 swap, your help is much appreciated
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2023, 09:40:57 pm »
Good to hear that rev and sing.  Good job!!!

 

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