Do we need this?

[Benjamin]

Please dont shoot me for my enlish and bad technical...

a thought of me when i was watching last night to a dismantled VE pump wich i got, i just wanna share this, to make more dynamic time advance wich means more effecient powerline. (only needed when governermod is done and wanna rev high)


Can we machine this governerwheel? to make it possible adding more dynamic timing advance.

Make the circle/round thing (dont know the right word  :oops: maybe governerwheel) more little (by machining) wich also means the governerflywheel cant have the weights anymore.

Remove (by machining) the teeths/cogs? (the right side of the thing in pic above) >wich also means it not gonna rotate anymore

If the rotation is needed!?!? (please explain why, if this is) we also can rebiuld the 'carrier' (> http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05329.jpg )
on this pic (> http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05354.jpg ) the right side, we can make it more "open" (we cant get more matrial from the left side, becouse of the rollers >http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05351.jpg are there) otherwise this was the best modification to increase the timing advance.

I also keeped in my mind we got the problem with the actuator pin ( > http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05333.jpg ) but i tried, and the pin give the possiblity to give more dynamic advance than the governerwheel limits.

Damn i need to have a cam for things like this  :evil:

Greetz, Benjamin

[935racer]

No modding the governor wheel will not give you more dynamic advance, I wouldnt reccomend lightening the governor, all you will gain is less reciprocating mass, and the amount is negligable as far as making more power is concerned.

[QuickTD]

Can we machine this governerwheel? to make it possible adding more dynamic timing advance.

Make the circle/round thing (dont know the right word  :oops: maybe governerwheel) more little (by machining) wich also means the governerflywheel cant have the weights anymore.

Remove (by machining) the teeths/cogs? (the right side of the thing in pic above) >wich also means it not gonna rotate anymore

If the rotation is needed!?!? (please explain why, if this is) we also can rebiuld the 'carrier'

You could machine some of the governor weight housing (round part) away to gain some clearance. The governor gear is a necessary part. It must rotate with the flyweights and linkage intact. Without the governor it would be impossible to control the idle speed. The governor balances injected quantity against engine load, if engine speed increases the governor weights fly out against spring tension and reduce the quantity, if the engine slows the weights contract and allow the idle spring to increase injected quantity. Without this interaction with the governor the engine speed would either climb until the engine self destructed or slow until it stalled, it would be impossible to reach a balance.

It may be possible to use a full EDC pump/control system could use electronics to balance injected quantity and eliminate the governor, but that would be quite a project...  

The roller carrier and the pin slot could both be be machined for more clearance, I don't see any problem there.

[Giles@PerformanceDiesel]

hi Ben

don't even think about doing anything to the weights or the weight retainer

it's won't do u any good.

my gov mods and other mods will get u the performance gains u want.
sorry can't tell u how to do it.

my own design u know.

Giles
if u do cut the weights or the retainer it will give u unstable idle mostly.

[Benjamin]

i thought when the governermod (=not using the intermediate spring) is done the weights are useless



offcorse i should not remove the axle.

No modding the governor wheel will not give you more dynamic advance

i wanna make the possibility to add more dynamic timing advance.
i dismantled the plate from the timing-cilinder, you can give just a very little bit more advance. If it should be possible (with a smaller governerwheel) you can make more dynamic timing advance.

Can someone explain way the governetwheel is not useless when the governetmod is done?

I believe that what Giles says, it true, but i just dont see what the weights and the weight of the flywheel have to see with the idle.

Greetz, Benjamin

[QuickTD]

i thought when the governermod (=not using the intermediate spring) is done the weights are useless

 No, the weights still influence fuel delivery during starting, idling and max rpm even when the intermediate spring is shimmed.  The only thing that the shimming of the intermediate spring affects is fuel delivery at intermediate engine speeds, hence the name...

  The idling spring is the small one at the attachment point of the governor spring capsule. Replace it with a solid shim and try it, but I'm sure the engine will either run away or stall, it won't idle.

[RabbitJockey]

i thought when the governermod (=not using the intermediate spring) is done the weights are useless

 No, the weights still influence fuel delivery during starting, idling and max rpm even when the intermediate spring is shimmed.  The only thing that the shimming of the intermediate spring affects is fuel delivery at intermediate engine speeds, hence the name...

  The idling spring is the small one at the attachment point of the governor spring capsule. Replace it with a solid shim and try it, but I'm sure the engine will either run away or stall, it won't idle.

yep yep, people just shim the intermediate spring, so that the fuel does not start getting cut until  it's time,

 so as an example, i have no idea what pressures the springs sees irl, but say at 3000 rpm, the intermediate spring sees 1 pound of pressure,  so if you apply shims so that the intermediate spring is compressed to its size when its at 2 pounds of pressure, then at 3000 rpm no fuel will be cut, and no fuel will be cut until you reach that 2 pounds of pressure at w/e rpm it takes to reach it.  maybe that helps you understand it?  that's kinda how i think of it, same goes for the lda's start wheel adjustment.

[RedRotors]

If you want to see the 'effect' of the governor, look in this post.. ok, it's in french but you have 2 videos, nicely done even if the quality it not that good..

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4506

Marc/

[RabbitJockey]

it'd be sweet if someone translated that...

[Benjamin]

This advance should be 12degrees




when we make this bigger the timingcilinder can give more advance


when we cant remove or machine this governerwheel (and the weights need to do their job)

someone else got a solution?





More timing advance should give us a very powerfull powerband, or should it not worth it IF it can???

Greetz, Benjamin

[Bret (OH)]

It is my understanding that "Dynamic Timing Advance" is controled by the advance piston in the bottom of the pump.  It is connected to the Roller Carrier by a pin.  As engine speed increases, the vane pump pressure and flow increases.  This raises internal pump pressure and exerts a force against the side of the piston opposite the spring.  At the same time, through an orfice back to the intake side of the vane pump, the fuel on the spring side of the slider piston finds a low pressure situation, (possibly a negative pressure condition. This allows the Slider Piston to move the Roller Carrier , via the connector pin, in a clockwise direction (looking at the pump from the Head end) thus advancing the injection timing.  The Govenor has nothing to do with timing.  It only controls the amount of fuel allowed to be delivered to the injectors for each injection pulse.

[QuickTD]

The Govenor has nothing to do with timing. It only controls the amount of fuel allowed to be delivered to the injectors for each injection pulse.
 
 

We are aware that the governor has nothing to do with timing. However, the governor flyweight assembly is directly in the path of the roller carrier, prohibiting more than stock levels of timing advance, thats what we're discussing.

[Benjamin]

We are aware that the governor has nothing to do with timing. However, the governor flyweight assembly is directly in the path of the roller carrier, prohibiting more than stock levels of timing advance, thats what we're discussing.

indeed, example of a (extreme early) timing advance


Greetz, Benjamin

EDIT:

@Trev0rbr: there is no much to translate.
but he says he will also use a stoboscope-lamp (wich have to got the same frequency (Hz) as the pump, so you can see the stand from the camplate (so you gonna see the dynamic timing advance) just like a strobe by gassers for checking the timing.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5632555166299583196
this one is 0-1200rpm wich is +- stationary rpm

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1722499030748913807
0-2100rpm: you can see the governer works at this enginespeed (+-2100), in our vw's this should not happen, they have to rev higher untill the governer commin in.

When this pump is reving 2000rpm, the crank is going 4000rpm

[Bret (OH)]

Thank you for the clarification of the topic of discussion.  Now I understand the need to modify the Governor assembly.  How many more degrees of advance are you after?  It may be possible to notch out the front of the roller carrier to avoid contact with the Gov. gear teeth.  It may also be possible to chuck the Gov. weight carrier in a center type grinder and decrease the OD of the weight hoising.  One would have to be careful not to get it too thin, allowing the centrifical forces of the weights to fracture the carrier.  This would probably only gain a few degrees at best.  A lot of work for such a small amount of gain.  
Would not the above picture show extreme Retarded timing?

[935racer]

I'll try and get some pictures up of one of my "custom" cut roller rings, good for about another degree in pump timing. I've been having really good luck with a modification that gives me pefect dynamic timing up to about 6000rpm, I'd like to patent it, as it works really well (needs some tweaking but I am working on it) but that likely isn't going to happen so now the debate is wether to keep it a race secret, or start to produce it and watch some other company with more capital push me out  Its not all that practical though, so I dunno.