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Author Topic: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?  (Read 269 times)

August 30, 2018, 08:06:10 pm

Aristotlejones

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Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« on: August 30, 2018, 08:06:10 pm »
Hi,

Not a mechanic. Just trying to salvage a previously working truck that I need to help me move soon.

81 1.6L Rabbit pickup with 82/3 TD. Just installed new AMC head, HG, bolts following Bentley.

Filled w 6.5L used coolant (planning to flush & replace), but couldn't readily find proper capacity, and overflow tank kept draining so over filled by 2.25L. Then I filled oil to 4.5L. Oil started coming out dipstick tube. Discovered that sump had filled with coolant.  Could my overfilling have caused the mixture?

I had been replacing the three way hoses for the oil cooler, and due to delays, may have switched hoses, but I'm not sure it would cause this problem. Could it?

I wasn't very happy with the Felpro HG I got, after looking at a previous Victor Reinz one. Just seemed to be less robust and the alignment wasn't as accurate. Yes I got the right side and direction, making sure all the holes lined up.

I'm exhausted and pretty demoralized right now, but I'm just trying to figure out if there could be any other issue causing this leak before I order a new HG & bolts & get back to work.

Thanks ahead,

<*>aj
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 08:33:27 pm by Aristotlejones »



Reply #1August 30, 2018, 08:29:08 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2018, 08:29:08 pm »
Any chance the head is hydraulic lifter and not a match to the block which is solid lifter?
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Reply #2August 30, 2018, 08:46:50 pm

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2018, 08:46:50 pm »
Good question.

I gave AMC the # on the old head ( 068 103 373 T ) and they assured me it was a match.

I wouldn't know what to look for to tell the difference, and probably it would require pulling the head again to see the inside of the block.

BTW: Thanks for your Timing FAQ! Once I got the coverplate off the lower belt, your procedure made a lot of sense.

Reply #3August 30, 2018, 08:50:51 pm

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2018, 08:50:51 pm »
I just checked my emails. The head I bought had solid lifters.

See link: https://www.evwparts.com/vwparts/068103265C.html

Reply #4August 31, 2018, 02:09:02 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2018, 02:09:02 am »
Post a few pictures of the actual head and block 
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Reply #5August 31, 2018, 02:28:22 am

fatmobile

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2018, 02:28:22 am »
That's probably a good call Andrew,..
 I can't think  of another way water would pour into the oil without even starting the engine.
 Even a cracked block wouldn't do that.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #6August 31, 2018, 10:58:18 am

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2018, 10:58:18 am »
I'm trying to upload pictures without opening myself to more spam and potential viruses and distractions for life.

I tried using ctrlq.org because they claimed to offer free hosting without the need to sign up. I turned off all my protections, yet still was not able to upload images. I just emailed the site owner since they don't have any help files. If I drag an image (smaller than 1mb) onto their page, the URL is its location in my computer. If I click on the "upload image" button, and highlight an image, and click open, I'm staring at a rotating circle for five minutes.

Can anyone recommend a hosting site that does not require an account, or that you have used to upload pics that works well and doesn't abuse their use of your data?

Thanx ahead,

<*>aj

Reply #7August 31, 2018, 11:21:48 am

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2018, 11:21:48 am »
No worries, I hope. I just found tinypic.com.

Here are some pics:

DSC02000 - oil cooler hoses


DSC02005 - oil fm dip & coolant fm pan


DSC02006 - engine 1


DSC02007 - engine 2


DSC02008 - engine 3


DSC02009 - engine 4


DSC02010 - engine 5


I'm told the cooler is hooked up right. It was not leaking prior to the head job, and has not been removed or altered. All I did was remove & replace turbo hard line, hoses & filter.

I replaced the oil pan with new one including port for drain from turbo.

I added a flush tap to the heater line, and recently replaced the core.

Thanks again for your help,

<*>aj

Reply #8August 31, 2018, 12:24:40 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2018, 12:24:40 pm »
Your third picture is a bit of a smoking gun.  It shows two humps.  Some aftermarket heads have the hump and no hole (they use the same casting for both mech and hyd lifter heads) but given your coolant/oil mixing I think that it is probably not the right style of head.  You can take off the valve cover and use a flashlight to see if the hole goes through.   That's a bummer as the head gasket and bolts are now trash and here's hoping the vendor will take the head back after it was installed. 
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #9August 31, 2018, 12:36:53 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2018, 12:36:53 pm »
Pic from CoolAirVW:


Your pic showing the second hump:
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #10August 31, 2018, 12:44:57 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2018, 12:44:57 pm »
That is, unless I'm not seeing that right.  It's not a great pic for showing.

There should be a corresponding hump in the block if it is hydraulic.  The mismatch lines up an oil drain to a coolant hole.   
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 01:01:04 pm by libbydiesel »
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #11August 31, 2018, 02:08:08 pm

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 02:08:08 pm »
I'm tired of swearing at tinypic.

I keep having to give them more and more permissions to violate my computer, but they don't reciprocate by allowing me to get past their "are you a human" filter, so I have to ask the same question back... Worked fine the first time with same settings...

So I can't post pics, but take it for red that the new head is missing a hole that the original one had, in spite of the extra bump.

Can someone please explain in dumb person terms how the missing hole is causing my leak? I'd though it would be the reverse, but I don't know how these holes circulate or connect.

Thanks again,

<*>aj

Reply #12August 31, 2018, 04:10:36 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 04:10:36 pm »
Can you see the two pics I posted?  Does your new head have two humps like the hydro head on the left in the first pic?  That's what it looks like to me.  If that is the case, then typically that hump has a hole for an oil drain that was not present in the earlier solid lifter head/block.  Instead, in that location on the block for the solid lifter engines, there is a coolant passage.  If you place a hydro head on a solid lifter block then oil drain in head lines up with coolant passage in block.  If you place a solid lifter head on a hydro block, then coolant passage in head lines up with oil drain in the block. 

I can't see your block in that area to tell which you have.  I also can't clearly see the head to know which you have and even if there is a second hump it might still be a solid lifter aftermarket head as some aftermarket heads use the same casting for each and just add either the oil drain or coolant passage depending on which type they are making. 
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #13August 31, 2018, 06:51:16 pm

Aristotlejones

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2018, 06:51:16 pm »
I've been corresponding with the head supplier, and while I'm too tired to pull the head off today just to take a pic of the block surface plan, I could pull the water hoses, etc, to find the engine code.

XMF 014784*

Anyone know what year/make that is from?

This was a diesel mechanic's work truck, so it could be anything...

Reply #14August 31, 2018, 07:00:35 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Head & HG replaced, coolant in sump, replace HG again?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 07:00:35 pm »
That doesn't sound like the engine code.  The engine code is located here: 



(notice that the block and head in that pic have the second hump running vertically)

AJ sent some head pics to me via e-mail.   

To keep anyone reading along with the thread, here is their old head.  Notice it has TWO holes (later hydraulic):




Here is their new head.  Notice it does not have the extra oil drain:


For reference, this is how a stock solid lifter head is cast:

Notice that it has no hump and has a coolant channel on each side of the head bolt hole between #1 and #2 pre-chamber inserts.

Here is how the stock hydraulic lifter head is cast:

Notice it has the extra hump and has a larger oil drain hole in the general location of one of the coolant channels in the solid lifter head.

On seeing Aj's pics I am convinced that the issue is indeed a mismatch of block and head, with a solid lifter head and an hydraulic lifter block.  I believe the new head has the extra hump as shown in the prior pic, but that it is a casting like this one (photo stolen online):


Notice that it has the hump but has a coolant passage instead of the oil drain.  This is a solid lifter head but outwardly looks like it is hydraulic unless you look at the head gasket surface. 

Considering that AJ's old head had the extra oil drain hole it must by hydraulic.  If the new head is a solid lifter head (but with the hump), then the coolant passage in the head would line up with the drain in the block and once the engine was filled with coolant it would pour out of that coolant channel and into the oil drain in the block and fill the sump with coolant. 

Some better pics of AJ's block behind the injection pump could help to confirm/discount this theory. 

Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

 

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