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Interest in co-developing a stand-alone ECU for 16V CR engines?
by
rabbid79
on 27 Jan, 2018 11:29
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Hi, as the title says, I'm interested in developing a stand-alone ECU for the newer CR engines. The idea is to provide only the basic functions that a VE pump provides, which means doing away with all non-essential sensors/actuators/DBW pedal, etc. I'd also throw away most of the wiring harness.
The primary goal is to make swapping these newer, more powerful, and more prevalent engines into a variety of vehicles such as Vanagons, Jeeps, Toyotas, Samurais, VW/Audi cars, and even small boats more economical and straight forward. Not quite as simple as the single wire of an IDI swap, but very close!
It would probably feature a little bit of fine-tuning potential from the end-user perspective. These adjustments would probably be accomplished using NFC from a smartphone.
Anyway, if this is something you're interested it, feel free to PM me. I have the electronic and computer skills, resources, and test equipment, but am looking for help in the marketing, mechanical, TDI-tuning, and general-use areas.
I thought I'd post this here since this is by far the most active channel. If the mod doesn't like this here, please move this to whichever channel you feel is more appropriate.
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#1
by
Ian0391
on 27 Jan, 2018 12:12
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I don't know of I'd be much help but a standalone computer would be awesome.
Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
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#2
by
theman53
on 28 Jan, 2018 07:17
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agreed, I would love to see what you come up with.
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#3
by
RunninWild
on 28 Jan, 2018 18:28
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I think if you could make a barebones harness/ecu it would do quite well. I really couldnt see you having trouble selling it. Even just marketing on forums would probably get you plenty of business. If you expanded onto making motor mounts and adapter plates i think it could take off really well. That or pairing with acme adapters or something along those lines would probably workout.
Im not sure how keen Jeff at acme would be but if he was interested in expanding his products to offer newer engines it would only help boost sales in my opinion. Like you said idis are getting older and harder to find these days. Would be pretty good future proofing
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#4
by
RabbitJockey
on 29 Jan, 2018 08:41
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i think it is cheaper and much more effective to just get a swap tune for the stock ecu. They already exist and you can even pay a company like s&p to convert the engine harness for you. It also then allows you to use the OBDII port, which can then be used for electronic gauges through bluetooth on pretty much any tablet which can even be used for your gauge cluster. I think you'd be insane not to use the stock ecu, it would really be a waste of time to reinvent the wheel.
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#5
by
rabbid79
on 29 Jan, 2018 21:11
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Thanks for the responses. I'm glad to hear that most people are in favor of this idea.
RabbitJockey, I think you're missing the point. It may seem like reinventing the wheel, but it's really not. It's more like simplifying the wheel.
The idea is NOT to retrofit existing TDIs with a stand-alone ECU. This stand-alone ECU would be to "repower" vehicles/boats/generators that don't currently have them.
Consider why the IDI forum on this website has 10X more posts than the TDI forums, despite the fact that there are 100 times more TDIs on the roads and in the junk yards. It's not because IDIs are more abundant than TDIs. It's not because they're more powerful. It's not because they're more fuel efficient. It's not because they're more robust. And it's really not because they're cheaper (at least, not anymore). The reason is because IDIs are simpler to swap, maintain, repair, and run than TDIs.
And why? Because they don't have all of that electronic baggage that a TDI has. For the most part, there's only 1 wire needed to make an IDI run. The same cannot be said for TDIs.
In terms of cost to swap a TDI (just from the electronics standpoint), the factory ECU and complete wiring harness in good condition are going to cost you $500. A custom harness if you need one starts at about $600. Then there's the VAGCOM tools and expertise you need to sync the ECU to the instrument cluster, and to the ignition key immobilizer, and even to the CR injectors themselves! And then if you need a "custom tune" to remove EGR or immobilizer or whatnot, or to add power, you're talking at least another $500. So you're basically at $1000 to $2000 just in electronics. And this is to say nothing about retrofitting that lovely Drive-By-Wire pedal.
I'll I'm suggesting is creating a simple stand-alone ECU to run the newer TDI engines - probably PD and CR. It would get rid of all of the extra TDI electronics baggage - MAF sensor, IAT sensor, O2 sensor, fuel temp sensor, DBW pedal, EGR, VAGCOM, OBD2, electronic instrument cluster, immobilizer/key sensor, DPF/Urea injection, exhaust side flap, intake anti-shudder flap, etc.
All of this stuff would be replaced with a much simpler stand-alone ECU that handles basic fueling and ignition timing functions. I envision boost control would be handled by a separate system, in much the same way that a mechanical wastegate controls boost independent of what the VE fuel injection pump is set up to do. Same with the glowplugs - a separate system dedicated to handling the GPs without much consideration for what the rest of the system is doing. A run of the mill GP relay might even suffice.
And as far as price points - Unless there's something I just haven't considered, I'm thinking the stand-alone ECU would be in the $500 range.
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#6
by
RabbitJockey
on 30 Jan, 2018 08:08
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sorry, but the reason there are less tdi posts is because most tdi activity is on tdiclub.com
if you get an entire swap, or a swap car then there is no added cost for the electronics, wiring harness, and pedal, just around 500 for a swap tune, which will typically include an immo defeat, and emissions delete. At that point the instrument cluster form the donor car could be used, or a tablet with the torquelite or torque pro app for gauges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMYZNal9WpkCR injectors won't be any cheap just because you are using an aftermarket standalone ECU.
pretty much everything you want to do can already be done with the stock ecu
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#7
by
libbydiesel
on 30 Jan, 2018 08:55
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If actually going electronic, I would want the MAF, IAT, O2, fuel temp, OBD2, etc... Without those things I would not want a standalone ECU as the benefit to the electronic engine management would all be nullified and in that case I would fit a mechanical pump and injectors and be back to a single wire. The better breathing of the 16v head would be nice. Here's a thread where I proposed that for the CR engines:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,33243.msg310487.html#msg310487 I believe the concept has merit and that the injector issue could be adequately resolved.
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#8
by
rabbid79
on 30 Jan, 2018 18:54
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Libbydiesel, I remember years ago reading your thread about converting to a mechanical injection pump on the 16V engines, and thought it would be pretty cool.
I'm a fan of mechanical injection. I'm a fan of electronics. I'm a fan of TDI engines in factory-equipped cars. I'm just not a fan of all of the additional electronics that are necessary on TDIs, when a smaller and simpler subset will do.
Every electronic component you add above and beyond what is absolutely necessary will reduce reliability and increase your chances of CELs and limp-home mode - assuming it runs at all.
I've been contemplating building a stand-alone unit for more than 10 years - ever since I purchased an 800 mile PD-150 engine from Europe to install in my '79 Rabbit. I purchased it before I understood the difference between VE and PD injection systems. It was a major let down when I discovered how much more involved a PD swap would be, and that there was no way to convert to mechanical.
The other day a friend asked me how to convert his FJ40 to TDI. I told him that purchasing engine adapters was only half the battle. The other half was all of the electronic crap he'd have to buy, adapt, debug, and tune. For a noob like him, this would probably be a very frustrating multi-month affair. If only it was a matter of saying "pick yourself up a clean PD or CR engine and a low cost stand-alone ECU, splice it into the engine's wiring harness and you're good to go".
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#9
by
libbydiesel
on 30 Jan, 2018 20:23
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Every electronic component you add above and beyond what is absolutely necessary will reduce reliability and increase your chances of CELs and limp-home mode - assuming it runs at all.
I absolutely agree with that.
My point was that each of the items I listed benefits overall efficiency and diagnostics. Without the added components I listed, I would prefer 'simply' fitting a mechanical pump and injectors to match. Without the added items, I doubt you would be able to exceed the mechanical pump in efficiency and with or without them, you won't exceed the mechanical pump for reliability. I think that you would also have more effort into the development and installation and would lose the diagnostic capabilities without the OBD2 port.
All of that said, I think it sounds like a fun project to undertake and I wish you all success with it.
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#10
by
RunninWild
on 30 Jan, 2018 23:24
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Every electronic component you add above and beyond what is absolutely necessary will reduce reliability and increase your chances of CELs and limp-home mode - assuming it runs at all.
I absolutely agree with that.
My point was that each of the items I listed benefits overall efficiency and diagnostics. Without the added components I listed, I would prefer 'simply' fitting a mechanical pump and injectors to match. Without the added items, I doubt you would be able to exceed the mechanical pump in efficiency and with or without them, you won't exceed the mechanical pump for reliability. I think that you would also have more effort into the development and installation and would lose the diagnostic capabilities without the OBD2 port.
All of that said, I think it sounds like a fun project to undertake and I wish you all success with it.
I don't think the point Is to improve on mechanical efficiency or reliability. The point is to give an option to run the pd diesel as an easy swap for people that arnt electronically inclined. People that don't have the skills or patience to stare at wiring diagrams for hours and cut, splice and hope everything they did worked. It gives confidence that it was done in a way that will work good enough and they wont have to trace possible wiring issues when diagnosing a problem. People go mtdi because of the simplicity, not to improve power or efficiency. Mtdi isn't an option on PD engines from what I understand. This would literally be the next best thing. Its not meant to be an option for people that want to run a tdi to its full potential, Those people always have and always will go a full tdi. This is for the people that want to bolt the engine in, plug in a few wires and run it. It also opens up a whole new generation of engines, ones most likely to have the least mileage and most likely to be in better condition. It also would save a huge headache in sourcing/modifying a rover pump to run mtdi or a lot of expense in getting a hybrid pump built.
I personally can swap in a diesel engine into a vehicle and I can run the basic wiring involved for sensors, glowplugs and the fuel cutoff solenoid. I can do this and have a functioning engine. I know my limits and I know personally I would never be able to modify 2 harnesses to run a e-tdi unless I had significant help. This basic harness and ecu would be for people like myself.
Rabbid79 I don't know anything about tuning of tdis or any of the electronics involved. Would it be possible to build the ecu in a way that it could have a couple of dials hooked up to control fueling and boost?
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#11
by
libbydiesel
on 31 Jan, 2018 08:39
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According to the title of the thread and first post, this is for CR engines not PD. MTDI is not an option on PD engines, but is potentially an option on CR engines and I believe it would be less overall effort to develop than a standalone ECU/engine management. It would also be more reliable than a standalone ECU/engine management and more efficient than one that was stripped of the 'unnecessary' components listed above. That is my whole point.
I have built quite a few mTDI pumps and installed several mTDI conversions. Each has performed much better than a stock eTDI, given excellent fuel economy, and been a paragon of reliability. The idea that an mTDI is somehow less able to live up to its 'full potential' than an eTDI, is complete and utter BS. I have all the skills to do an eTDI conversion without difficulty and yet have chosen mTDI because the end result is BETTER. I don't know what 'huge headache' you are imagining in purchasing a land rover pump. Push the button and pay for it.
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#12
by
rabbid79
on 31 Jan, 2018 21:25
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That's true, I did originally suggest targeting CR engines only, but in hindsight, also doing PDs wouldn't be much different. True, the injector drivers would be completely different, but most of the other things like crankshaft position sensors and whatnot would be very similar.
Would it be possible to build the ecu in a way that it could have a couple of dials hooked up to control fueling and boost?
Good question. I was thinking that the interface would be through NFC and a smartphone, but that can get pretty ugly. The other thing I could do is implement a graphical LCD and touchscreen. I'd have to resurrect some old code, but I've done that type of thing before. Then it would be something that you set using a stylus.
I was also thinking of using a 3-pronged approach to the overall engine, turbo boost, and glow plug control. They could each be a stand-alone device/product and separate each other.
The glow plug controller could benefit the older IDI engines and the newer PD and CR engines that use stand-alone control. I think the coolest thing would be to have the glow plug controller be the exact same form factor as a standard GP relay, and even fit in its slot in the fuse box, but of course, it would use solid state electronics and would be microprocessor controlled to allow various pre-glow/post-glow values based on engine temperature, etc. If a person was willing to wire up the glow plugs individually, it could even provide feedback on current flow and detect bad plugs. It would probably be controlled using a simple app from an Android smartphone where you just enter values into fields. You would tap the relay with your phone and the values would be sent using NFC, and then you could forget about it.
Same with the VNT boost control. It wouldn't be in a relay form factor like the glow plug, probably something a bit different. But it would still be something that could be controlled using a smartphone to set the boost levels, and probably values for tuning the PID algorithm to achieve optimum control of the boost. It would also probably benefit from "throttle position" input.
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#13
by
RunninWild
on 01 Feb, 2018 15:24
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if you are going to go with a box with a lcd screen I would highly suggest adding the ability to hookup outside sensors to monitor and set alarms for water/oil temp, boost pressure, oil pressure and egt similar to those aftermarket programmers used in diesel trucks. Having a small box that fits on the dash that monitors and controls everything would be amazing! if this could be done affordably it would potentially save quite a bit on purchasing external gauges. I also like the ability to connect it to a smart phone to be able to adjust fueling and boost levels.
I think adding individual control to each glowplug its getting to the point where its adding complexity and running a lot of wires for novice people. Having a single signal wire for the glowplugs that would hook up to a external solenoid would be much simpler and cheaper.
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#14
by
rabbid79
on 01 Feb, 2018 18:50
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if you are going to go with a box with a lcd screen I would highly suggest adding the ability to hookup outside sensors to monitor and set alarms for water/oil temp, boost pressure, oil pressure and egt similar to those aftermarket programmers used in diesel trucks. Having a small box that fits on the dash that monitors and controls everything would be amazing! if this could be done affordably it would potentially save quite a bit on purchasing external gauges. I also like the ability to connect it to a smart phone to be able to adjust fueling and boost levels.
I think adding individual control to each glowplug its getting to the point where its adding complexity and running a lot of wires for novice people. Having a single signal wire for the glowplugs that would hook up to a external solenoid would be much simpler and cheaper.
Thanks, that's good input. The graphical LCD I've used in the past is monochrome only. I could go with color to have nice looking built-in gauges, but that just adds time and expense. I like to think of the LCD as a means to an end. It's there to let you do a simple job of tuning, but not much more.
A stand-alone ECU would absolutely feature a tachometer output though, so standard after-market tachs could be used.
I also appreciate your glow plug comments. I'm going to put my money where my mouth is, and start with a glow plug controller. I've acquired a lot of PCB design and assembly skills since I last thought about working on these projects. I think it will be pretty straight forward. I'm going to start another thread having to do with a GP controller. I'd like to get people's input on it.