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giles pump tuned for k24 paired with k03
by
zuhandenheit
on 23 Jan, 2018 17:02
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I found an almost-new Giles pump, injectors, and lines for sale. The price is quite good and I've really wanted to try one of these.
My biggest concern is that the pump is set up for a k24 and I'll be running a k03. I would hope that I could just crank down the fueling a bit, and anyway maybe one day I'll get a k14 or k24.
Any ideas about how this will run? I should ask Giles, I'm sure, but I decided to ask here first.
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#1
by
RunninWild
on 24 Jan, 2018 00:34
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The only issue i can think of would be boost enrichment once the lda opens. For a k24 at high boost its probably cut pretty aggressively. You would probably be better off swapping a lda with a 1.6td one
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#2
by
burn_your_money
on 24 Jan, 2018 01:41
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All that really matters here is how much boost the pump was built for. If I remember correctly you are running 10 psi. If this pump was built for any more than that it will smoke (probably a lot). There's some simple things you can do to limit the fueling without messing up any of the other settings if the pump is built for more than 10 psi though. They are crude but effective. And easily reversed which is nice if you ever want to go for big boost (with a different turbo)
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#3
by
zuhandenheit
on 24 Jan, 2018 08:05
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That's right -- just 10 psi (which is what this new turbo is set to) though I figured I'll increase it. I assume that the k24 has a much higher flow rate at all but the lowest psi, and that this would be a major factor as well?
Even if I couldn't run the pump well with my current setup, I'm tempted to buy it . . .
Thanks, again, for the advice.
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#4
by
theman53
on 25 Jan, 2018 09:27
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I found an almost-new Giles pump, injectors, and lines for sale. The price is quite good and I've really wanted to try one of these.
My biggest concern is that the pump is set up for a k24 and I'll be running a k03. I would hope that I could just crank down the fueling a bit, and anyway maybe one day I'll get a k14 or k24.
Any ideas about how this will run? I should ask Giles, I'm sure, but I decided to ask here first.
You won't have any need for a Giles pump if you are running a restriction like the ko3
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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#5
by
burn_your_money
on 25 Jan, 2018 14:05
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You won't have any need for a Giles pump if you are running a restriction like the ko3
Disagree 100%. That's like saying it's pointless on a NA car but we all know they do wonders for that engine. If you goal is max HP then yes, it's pointless to run a single K03 but as far as daily drivablility it's night and day.
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#6
by
zuhandenheit
on 26 Jan, 2018 21:54
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I contacted Giles about this. The price to have the pump setup for my current turbo is 375 Canadian, which isn't too bad. And I've got a couple old pumps that he said he'd take in exchange for a discount.
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#7
by
theman53
on 28 Jan, 2018 10:15
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while it would increase performance the K03 is a restriction and shouldn't be used. If used in the long term I would bet money that the precups would fall out because of the heat cycles...it did it with my K24 and 3" all the way back as the K24 was too restrictive. I would spend a little more than the price to recalibrate and buy a real turbo. You absolutely don't have to and it will run better with that pump, but if your idea is long term reliability and reasonable cost I would not do as you are planning.
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#8
by
zuhandenheit
on 28 Jan, 2018 16:19
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Thanks for the warning, but I'm confused: Do you mean I'd be running too rich with a k03 (i.e., is that the heat cycle your referring to?)
I'm having trouble finding other turbo options. Andrew et al have described issues with lag when using a K24 or T3 in a van, on account of gearing and weight -- this means sometimes getting stuck at the top of 2nd gear when going uphill.
A K14 seems a good choice, but I've looked and failed to find one.
I might just hold off a good long while until I can get a VNT.
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Anyway, if I buy the pump I'll probably just stash it for now, thanks to advice in this thread.
When I saw that Cascade Auto was offering new K03s, I grabbed one. I've got a real motley collection of turbos -- a worn out TDI k03-006 sent to me with a cobbled-together mess of an AAZ, for which I built an adapter and rebuilt myself and don't really trust, a T3 with a compressor that shows some wear (like it was consuming sand), and a proper AAZ k03-003 that I bought used, which, like so many AAZ parts, looks like it spent some time at the bottom of the ocean, and has too much axial play.
So it was nice to get a new turbo. With that said, I think it would be fun to maybe fix the T3 and mount it, just to see how it runs (though of course this is a lot of work, requiring the modification of a motor mount, a new exhaust, and etc., though at least I already have an exhaust manifold.
If I were to do something like this, maybe I'd cut my exhaust and weld in a flange between the 'downpipe' and the rest, so that I could swap turbos back and forth . . .
Anyway, before I worry about any of this I'll be fitting an intercooler and improved intake, and, oh yeah, I need to figure out why my motor spat oil from the dipstick tube!
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#9
by
theman53
on 28 Jan, 2018 16:23
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Thanks for the warning, but I'm confused: Do you mean I'd be running too rich with a k03 (i.e., is that the heat cycle your referring to?)
I'm having trouble finding other turbo options. Andrew et al have described issues with lag when using a K24 or T3 in a van, on account of gearing and weight -- this means sometimes getting stuck at the top of 2nd gear when going uphill.
A K14 seems a good choice, but I've looked and failed to find one.
I might just hold off a good long while until I can get a VNT.
--
Anyway, if I buy the pump I'll probably just stash it for now, thanks to advice in this thread.
When I saw that Cascade Auto was offering new K03s, I grabbed one. I've got a real motley collection of turbos -- a worn out TDI k03-006 sent to me with a cobbled-together mess of an AAZ, for which I built an adapter and rebuilt myself and don't really trust, a T3 with a compressor that shows some wear (like it was consuming sand), and a proper AAZ k03-003 that I bought used, which, like so many AAZ parts, looks like it spent some time at the bottom of the ocean, and has too much axial play.
So it was nice to get a new turbo. With that said, I think it would be fun to maybe fix the T3 and mount it, just to see how it runs (though of course this is a lot of work, requiring the modification of a motor mount, a new exhaust, and etc., though at least I already have an exhaust manifold.
If I were to do something like this, maybe I'd cut my exhaust and weld in a flange between the 'downpipe' and the rest, so that I could swap turbos back and forth . . .
Anyway, before I worry about any of this I'll be fitting an intercooler and improved intake, and, oh yeah, I need to figure out why my motor spat oil from the dipstick tube!
I personally can vouch for the holset he221w. The 200wg is very similar. Spools better than the vnt15 on my malone stage 2 mkiv way more boost
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#10
by
zuhandenheit
on 05 Feb, 2018 21:08
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I missed my chance to get this pump, but I'm not entirely disappointed -- it was a good deal, but more money than I really want to spend right now, and I like the way the van is running (now with an intercooler and boost at 15 psi).
However, before I do any serious traveling I want to have at least a minimally-functional backup IP that I could have shipped to me in case of an emergency.
And I have two other pumps. One was working quite well until this happened:
(As explained here:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,37241.0.html)
And another that showed signs of heavy use, is just partially resealed, and failed to run the last time I tried to use it (after what happened to the pump above, and before I bought the one I'm currently running).
I also have a 1.6 pump which burn_your_money has said should have the same governor as the damaged one above.
So, with very little to lose, I'll try to repair the damaged pump myself. Hopefully all I'll need is the governor from the 1.6 pump -- but if necessary I can take apart the other AAZ pump. I'll be satisfied if I can get one working pump out of the three I've got, and quite happy if I could have two!
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#11
by
zuhandenheit
on 18 Mar, 2018 08:52
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Update: I bought this pump and it arrived yesterday.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/vw-aaz-Giles-tuned-diesel-injector-pump/152912362718?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649My first post was wrong -- it's actually tuned for a k14, at I think 15psi. I'm running 15-20, so the difference shouldn't be very big: not nearly as much as if it were set for a k24, I'm sure.
The pump looks very clean. It's a far cry from the last pump that I bought
Yesterday I installed it up to the point of priming it. It's a newer pump with an adjustable pulley. I hadn't used one of these but had no trouble figuring out how to time it.
I had to modify the inner tb cover and take a few parts from an old pump: the LDA lid had a weird adapter for the vacuum hose, which stuck out too far to clear the engine lid, and because the fuel lines are a different diameter I swapped a banjo fitting for the input line (I was able to make the return work with the attached line that came with the pump). I was surprised to find that the lines are different.
When I removed the LDA lid I took a look at the boost pin: It appears to be an AAZ pin that's been ground, and is very aggressive. I also found it interesting that Giles fits a locking band on the fuel screw.
I timed it to 1.01 mm. I'm not sure what Giles likes and maybe I'll talk to him, but this should be in the ballpark.
Later today I'll try to start it. The van has been down for about three weeks now.
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#12
by
theman53
on 18 Mar, 2018 08:58
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Update: I bought this pump and it arrived yesterday.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/vw-aaz-Giles-tuned-diesel-injector-pump/152912362718?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
My first post was wrong -- it's actually tuned for a k14, at I think 15psi. I'm running 15-20, so the difference shouldn't be very big: not nearly as much as if it were set for a k24, I'm sure.
The pump looks very clean. It's a far cry from the last pump that I bought
Yesterday I installed it up to the point of priming it. It's a newer pump with an adjustable pulley. I hadn't used one of these but had no trouble figuring out how to time it.
I had to modify the inner tb cover and take a few parts from an old pump: the LDA lid had a weird adapter for the vacuum hose, which stuck out too far to clear the engine lid, and because the fuel lines are a different diameter I swapped a banjo fitting for the input line (I was able to make the return work with the attached line that came with the pump). I was surprised to find that the lines are different.
When I removed the LDA lid I took a look at the boost pin: It appears to be an AAZ pin that's been ground, and is very aggressive. I also found it interesting that Giles fits a locking band on the fuel screw.
I timed it to 1.01 mm. I'm not sure what Giles likes and maybe I'll talk to him, but this should be in the ballpark.
Later today I'll try to start it. The van has been down for about three weeks now.
Try timing it at .9. That is where it should like it. Iirc the Giles spec is .85 to .95
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#13
by
zuhandenheit
on 20 Mar, 2018 22:45
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Thanks Man!
Priming was pretty easy. I used to have a cheap Harbor Freight bulb on the fuel line, which worked great until the valve broke.
I use a plastic bottle and shop vac: I melt a hole in the bottle into which I insert the return line, pushed down to the bottom of the bottle so that the fuel doesn't go into my vaccuum, and then I fit my vacuum over the top of the bottle. I've been doing this for awhile. It works well.
I had a bit of trouble getting the motor to start, mainly on account of air still in the lines, but I think also because the timing is too far advanced. My idle is too low -- it shakes unless I have the cold start engaged.
But otherwise, it runs far better than ever before. It's kind of amazing.
The power difference is huge.
I see 15-18 PSI of boost all the way to redline. High RPM power is incredibly improved and the power band is overall far smoother. There is little to no smoke. The motor is even significantly quieter.
Also, for the first time ever, it starts with just a flick of the key.
I'll fix the timing and see if that sorts my idle. If not, I'll have to adjust the idle setting. It's hard to believe that Giles wouldn't have set the idle correctly. If it's not the timing, maybe the PO fussed with the idle. All of the paint markings on the adjustments are still in place, so it will be easy to see if it's been changed.
The one other problem is that my accelerator cable isn't quite right. I really didn't want to remove the lever: I have a couple that I've modified previously (one is just bent, and the other is both bent and has a new hole drilled for the ball). The PO used this pump in a van, and the lever is workable, but the bracket was unmodified and sticks up way too far. On my old pump, I bent the bracket and modified the lever both so that the geometry would be okay and I'd get full range of motion. I was able to use my bracket with this lever, but I had to max out all the cable and lever adjustments to make the cable reach, and it just barely does. The geometry is not good and so the pedal doesn't feel right.
I didn't want to remove the lever. The pump has all three of the lever springs (my last pump was modified to use just one), which are a pain. A few times in the past I've lost the original position of the lever on the splines. (Either because I tried to remove just the top part of the lever assembly but couldn't keep the lower, splined part in place and didn't mark it, or because my markings weren't good enough.) I never had much trouble finding the correct position of the lever, but I didn't want to risk this at least until I got the motor running.
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My power modifications, aside from increased boost and the pump, are an intercooler and very free flowing intake and exhaust. I did a brief highway run and could accelerate quite well over 65 mph, at partial throttle. My top speed now is higher than I really have any business taking the van.
The increased high rpm power is very helpful for a heavy van: With my previous pumps, acceleration up grades was sometimes not good, because I was at too high an rpm in one gear and too low in the next.
I used to see full boost only within a fairly narrow range. As I approached redline, it would drop. Now I'm seeing 15-18 psi at pretty much any RPM.
The K03 now seems just right for this application.
Indeed, the only thing I would care to improve is performance off the line, and a bigger turbo (unless a VNT) could make this worse. First gear is quite short (even though I have a aircooled trans, which has taller gears than the original diesel trans) and the shift to second places me at a low RPM unless I rev the hell out of the motor. Cars behind me sometimes get very close during that 1st-2nd shift.
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#14
by
zuhandenheit
on 22 Mar, 2018 14:25
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I set the timing to .9, which I think made a significant improvement in performance.
The idle still seemed low and so I adjusted it. I'm still getting a little more vibration than before, although the noise is lower.
I'm amazed by the improvements. Now I need to fit a boost controller on the turbo -- I've been running it with the line to the wastegate detached: previously it didn't boost past 15-17 psi, but now I have to be careful with the throttle -- psi will shoot to 20 in the blink of an eye. I've got a simple ball valve that I'll fit to keep boost under 20.
I have a digital EGT gauge with a buzzer that sounds at 1350. I've only hit that temp a couple times, briefly. I'm seeing just a little smoke at heavy throttle.
But all is not entirely well: I came home last night to find a splash of oil on my muffler. The dipstick/filler tube is spitting oil again. The hoses from my crankcase vent to my catch can are I think not flowing well enough. I may still have a vacuum leak, which could be contributing to this -- I see some oil around the lid of the vacuum pump.