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Author Topic: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions  (Read 3781 times)

December 14, 2017, 03:37:03 pm

oblique

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1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« on: December 14, 2017, 03:37:03 pm »
Searched and thought I'd consolidate.

Coolant consumption is getting bad, close 1L/100km and with a new waterpump and no leaks its time to change out the old head gasket.

'89 MF motor, hydraulic head.

1. Metal vs. fabric doesnt matter as long as it matches the head but what implications does getting the wrong thickness head gasket have? I'm matching whatever is in there now, but if its wrong - how bad is a 3-notch where it should be a 1-notch and vice versa?

2. People do say go for ARP head studs but on a stock motor are cheapo aftermarket ones ok?

3. I'll also be doing the timing belt and tensioner while I'm in there...anything else to look at?

4. The injection pump stays put and the head comes out with manifolds still attached - is this everyone's experience as well?

5. If cracks are found between valves, how large can they be before the considered no good? Does the deck ABSOLUTELY need to be checked for straightness or can I just clean everything up real good and bolt it back up?
 



Reply #1December 14, 2017, 07:23:30 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 07:23:30 pm »
Your description is really strange to me.  1L per 100km coolant loss?  No leaks?  You say you assume it is the head gasket, but that would mean coolant is leaking into the combustion chamber.  Coolant pressure fully hot is 14-15psi whereas compression pressure is 400psi and peak cylinder pressure is ?200psi?.  If you aren't getting combustion gases in your coolant (bubbles, blown hoses, coolant leaks, etc...) it's really unlikely that you are getting coolant into the cylinder and even less likely that the cause is the head gasket.

Aftermarket cheapo head studs?  You don't want to bother to measure piston protrusion or head/deck flatness?

Reply #2December 14, 2017, 11:47:10 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 11:47:10 pm »
I have to scratch my head on the diagnosis here along with Libbydiesel.

Before you go pulling off the head and slapping down the same numbered notched gasket I would be looking at hoses, clamps and such to validate the loss of fluid elsewhere first.  I would be doing a compression test to see if I was low or unbalanced between the four cylinders.

Hoses would stiffen, pressure would build in the reservoir long before fluid loss.  So take one giant step backwards my friend and reassess your engine.

There is much to say about the head replacement but I will reserve those comments until you tell me that there is a low cylinder or it feels like the hoses are gonna blow on that engine at any time at idle.



Reply #3December 16, 2017, 01:35:26 pm

oblique

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2017, 01:35:26 pm »
Sorry guys thats a quart per 1,000kms, although I drove about 1000k yesterday and there was very little loss. Could this be as simple as my reservoir cap?

The reason I was asking about importance of head gasket thickness is because I want to know how it works. I've heard of 'universal' head gaskets which obviously means its the thickest one...but what effect to the variances have on the motor? I know the combustion chamber on diesels is ludicrously small but can thousandths of an inch (or whatever the thickness difference is) make a difference to power? Possible interference? So I want to know if its feasible to safely skip the projection check to save time in waiting for a head gasket because I would be working in a borrowed space.

As for the deck flatness, everyone seems to have an opinion. Some say the head warps over time and you need to plane it others say the bolt tension deforms the head back to mate with the block. Out of curiosity, has anyone ever checked the flatness of the block after pulling a 'warped' head? Meaning the flattest deck in the world still deforms under bolt tension to mate with the block so who cares about skimming the deck unless its really bad?

Just trying to get into VW's head here. Or could they not foresee longterm effects....

Reply #4December 16, 2017, 08:00:06 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2017, 08:00:06 pm »
For the sake of information sharing I will take a stab at your questions and statements and see if others chime in with additions or subtractions.

You plan to do a head gasket sometime in the future eh?  And you have to have parts at the ready to swap in and out.  The space to work on it is borrowed.  So when it comes to a situation like that I look at the current gasket and figure out if I have a one, two or three tab one installed now.  You should be able to see notches cut out or the area just to the side of the radiator hose.  I buy both, what I have and the next size down.  Then just return the unused one or sell it on the forum here or otherwise. 

Why do that?  Some of this you already know.  Once the head is off you measure the distance the piston rises above the block and fit the proper gasket in there upon assembly.  What is the risk of putting a thicker one in?  Really no risk just that as you mention the tolerances are pretty tight on these engines due to compression of near to 23:1.  Piston rings and seals need to be adhered to, otherwise you are fighting poor performance, hard starting, smoking out the back and a host of other things found in the forum that you just wouldn't have to deal with IF you put in the proper thickness of gasket in the first place. 

Does it matter that the gaskets really aren't that much different in thickness?  VW wouldn't have given us options if it didn't matter.  I know from personal experience that getting the right one makes a big difference in how the engine behaves.  I rebuilt one head and they just did as you mentioned and threw the fat gasket on there for safety sake.  Well the protrusion measured for a 1 notch gasket and when it came to starting, it made all the difference in the world.  Barely touch the starter now and it runs, before it was a grind for a couple of cylinders before it lit.

As for deck flatness the tolerance again is something near .004 thousandths IF I remember right.  Any idea how thin that is?  Paper is thicker.  And you read in this forum how folks have a heck of a time getting their "new" gasket to seal up after spending all that time pulling the head and cleaning it up.  But they forgot to put a straight edge on it and slide a feeler gauge under it between cylinders and around the outside edges.  You really can't goop the crap out of a gasket when your pushing 480 PSI at it every stroke.  Which is where you should be if the cylinder is worn well and not all sloppy.  Oh, that is another issue.  Out of round cylinders are a danger too.  An exaggeration is egg shaped but that is what they can look like.  If you have that problem you are into a bore and oversized pistons.  You can't see that or measure it until you pull the head either. 

The reason we care about flatness on the heads is that we move them around from this block to that block sometimes.  So you have to watch if someone says they overheated the head.  Getting it back to straight is a heat and pressure application not a skimming.  That might leave you with a cam that isn't straight in the blocks.  So yeah you get it to bolt down and tighten but now there is a torque on the upper part of the head and parts and things will start going bad for you in short order if you start pumping a turbo up on the poor little 1.6. 

And yes, you might just have a bad reservoir cap.  They come apart and the holes might be dirty or the seals might be shot and it just lets the hot steam out.  Does the cap sound like there is air coming out of it when you run it for a little bit and then turn the cap?  Are the hoses harder after it warms up compared to prior to start up? 

Stick with us and I think you will get into the VW's quirks and such. 

Today I swapped some snow tires on my Rabbit as they are better tires and realized, or maybe just noticed, the rear ones on the same snowflake rims are just a little higher profile than the fronts.  That is what I get for buying used tires.  I think I will try them on the Caddy and see if they look better there than what is on it now.   

Reply #5December 20, 2017, 11:30:37 pm

oblique

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 11:30:37 pm »
Absolutely helpful - thank you.

What this boils down to (overheating reference) is that there's no quick way to do this right. Seems like the proper method in diesel world is to cross it's, dot I's but make sure you use the correct writing utensil for the kind of paper you were handed.

I've done a ton of work on this car and since the body has a few years left on it I figure maintaining the rest of it is what I'd like to do. I'm coming from working on mk4 tdi's and it seems they are a little more forgiving.

Anyway you guys are definitely THE resource.

Reply #6December 26, 2017, 12:26:18 am

burn_your_money

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Re: 1.6td - first head gasket job questions
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 12:26:18 am »
1. Metal vs. fabric doesnt matter as long as it matches the head but what implications does getting the wrong thickness head gasket have? I'm matching whatever is in there now, but if its wrong - how bad is a 3-notch where it should be a 1-notch and vice versa?

Fabric is more forgiving to slight warp in the head. Metal needs to be 100% flat. Metal will hold more boost.

2. People do say go for ARP head studs but on a stock motor are cheapo aftermarket ones ok?

Aftermarket is fine as long as it's not from Prothe. APR is 100% overkill on a stock engine.

3. I'll also be doing the timing belt and tensioner while I'm in there...anything else to look at?

Cam/IM/crank seals. Intake and exhaust manifold gaskets when the head is on the bench. Wastegate function.

4. The injection pump stays put and the head comes out with manifolds still attached - is this everyone's experience as well?

Yes. It's heavy if there's a turbo attached. I'd recommend a helper - especially for the reinstall. Watch you don't gouge the head on the pump.

5. If cracks are found between valves, how large can they be before the considered no good? Does the deck ABSOLUTELY need to be checked for straightness or can I just clean everything up real good and bolt it back up?
 
The thickness of a dime is ok. I've never had an issue with the block (even after overheating) but it's quick to check so you may as well.
Tyler