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Author Topic: Play in the Intermediate Shaft  (Read 4325 times)

Reply #30June 27, 2017, 09:39:59 am

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2017, 09:39:59 am »
so you dont have to pull motor just for im shaft replacement. what i did, mind you this was on a MK2, where the front motor mount is removable, ive long seen the last of mk1's a good while ago, so no real idea on mk1 front motor mount. on a mk2, 1 i removed oil pan, for a jack point. 2 loosen all 3 motor mounts, use oil pan lip, a couple of blocks of wood and a jack, jack up motor, get up some and remove front motor mount bolts/nut(s). jack up some more, make sure you dont put front motor mount flange in to radiator, it will come close. get front motor mount out. now #1 motor will come down so im shaft clears fender. but first you need to check that nothing will hang-up motor on the way down, such as electrical wires, fuel hoses, rad hoses, etc, could make a job really harder. so motor will come down quite a ways for shaft to clear fender. front mount flange will come close to bottoming out. im shaft should clear fender, have a new shaft prepped, and otherwise it can slide back in, except youll want to take the best visual of bearings you can. outer bearing is perhaps serviceable, you d need the tools to pull & press a new one in. inner bearing can be real difficult, probably need a shop for that one, if also the outer one. in reverse jack up motor so you can put mount back in and put that part back together, re-tighten mounts and such. as for your engine hoist is can take place of a jack if you use it right and can perhaps with or with out a jack get motor up & down, at the least it will be like a jack stand, or a support so motor cannt go free and drop, it will have the support like a stand.

Thanks.

If the engine was running and there were no known problems I would very much consider this option. But, this car and engine are unkown to me.

I've decided if the IM shaft needs to be replaced I might as well just pull the engine, pull the head, inspect, repair, replace, etc.

I'm fortunate that it is not my dd and is a project.

Also, all of this is new to me and I think I will enjoy pulling the engine and learning.

Reply #31February 20, 2018, 04:05:52 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 04:05:52 pm »
I finally got the engine pulled earlier this month. "..in the next few weeks." HA!

I haven't removed the IM shaft yet.

Opinions on the kissing of the pistons and valves? Cracks between valves? And anything else that you think would be helpful would be much appreciated. Pics in link below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpFjK6wrbVXsApkY2VpoFfl44kGn3-GR

Reply #32February 20, 2018, 05:59:21 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 05:59:21 pm »
That's a lot of 'kissing'.  The exhaust valves hammered quite a bit.  It's not very common that you see the intake valve impressions also.  I'm impressed...  :-P  Someone was really, really sloppy with the timing belt.  Pistons are still usable unless you find any cracks.  Bores are probably worn out so it's probably not relevant.  Cracks between the valves look alright.
 The  valves should all be replaced.  Buff the pre-combustion chamber inserts to a shine.  You can't tell if they are cracked until you do.  If they are cracked, they should be replaced, IMO.
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Reply #33February 20, 2018, 10:06:24 pm

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2018, 10:06:24 pm »
Initial reaction to the pictures.

Copper spray on head means past head work was done. 

Amount of soot on valves now looks like none hitting at this time.

No carbon ridge so head rebuilt a little while ago or lack of driving afterwards.

Valves in Cyls 2 and 3 look shifted so maybe bent when you pull them out.  Will be interested to see if they are.

So the valves made it known to the pistons that they wanted to get close.  But not all of them are like that so I wouldn't be thinking the problem was timing belt as much as a poor job of shims after the rebuild.  I say that only because that is what happened to mine when I had a shop do the work.  They were ahem, how do we say that, Not real familiar with the tolerances of the VW engine? 

He was sloppy and likely distracted and my guess was he couldn't do math.  Not a good thing for a machinist.  Some of the gaps were way off on the tight side and others too much gap.  Perhaps he didn't know the Exhaust from the input port?  I have no clear idea all I know is that when I put the head on I could rotate the  crank without hitting the valves.  When I started it up they did make noise.

So I shut it down pronto and pulled the head.  I found two valves that had made similar marks as those in the photo.  So it didn't take but 30 seconds for that to happen.  Scary eh?

Cracks look ok between cylinders but a good cleaning will really revel what is going on there. 

Since this is not a Daily Driver (DD) then you have time to put some time into cleaning and measuring the head for warping. Get a good straight machinist edge and lay it over the block and slide those feeler gauges under the edge.  .004 MM is tolerance if I remember right.

Good luck on the rebuild.  Or is it just the intermediate shaft that needed fixing?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 10:12:24 pm by ORCoaster »
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Reply #34February 21, 2018, 01:15:57 pm

Dakotakid

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 01:15:57 pm »
To me, it looks like a tired engine which received an "Einstein paint-mark" timing job last time aroooond.
Nothing runs like a properly rebuilt engine. Take 'err down to the crank!

edit: WAIT....is this a 12 mm bolt engine?
If not....do you have a big dumpster nearby???????
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:19:49 pm by Dakotakid »
Keep rocking, Comrade.
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Reply #35February 21, 2018, 02:52:40 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 02:52:40 pm »
That's a lot of 'kissing'.  The exhaust valves hammered quite a bit.  It's not very common that you see the intake valve impressions also.  I'm impressed...  :-P  Someone was really, really sloppy with the timing belt.  Pistons are still usable unless you find any cracks.  Bores are probably worn out so it's probably not relevant.  Cracks between the valves look alright.
 The  valves should all be replaced.  Buff the pre-combustion chamber inserts to a shine.  You can't tell if they are cracked until you do.  If they are cracked, they should be replaced, IMO.

I was trying to be optimistic.  ;D Hammered it is. Many of the pictures I found for comparison made mine seem like kissing.

The timing was off when I checked it. Cam lock in place, ip lock in place, and I could see the timing mark throught the hole but it was to the right of TDC.

Before I checked the timing I did try starting the engine for a total of 20-30 seconds of cranking. I know, I know, I know.

Thank you.

Reply #36February 21, 2018, 03:16:53 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 03:16:53 pm »
Initial reaction to the pictures.

Copper spray on head means past head work was done. 

Amount of soot on valves now looks like none hitting at this time.

No carbon ridge so head rebuilt a little while ago or lack of driving afterwards.

Valves in Cyls 2 and 3 look shifted so maybe bent when you pull them out.  Will be interested to see if they are.

So the valves made it known to the pistons that they wanted to get close.  But not all of them are like that so I wouldn't be thinking the problem was timing belt as much as a poor job of shims after the rebuild.  I say that only because that is what happened to mine when I had a shop do the work.  They were ahem, how do we say that, Not real familiar with the tolerances of the VW engine? 

He was sloppy and likely distracted and my guess was he couldn't do math.  Not a good thing for a machinist.  Some of the gaps were way off on the tight side and others too much gap.  Perhaps he didn't know the Exhaust from the input port?  I have no clear idea all I know is that when I put the head on I could rotate the  crank without hitting the valves.  When I started it up they did make noise.

So I shut it down pronto and pulled the head.  I found two valves that had made similar marks as those in the photo.  So it didn't take but 30 seconds for that to happen.  Scary eh?

Cracks look ok between cylinders but a good cleaning will really revel what is going on there. 

Since this is not a Daily Driver (DD) then you have time to put some time into cleaning and measuring the head for warping. Get a good straight machinist edge and lay it over the block and slide those feeler gauges under the edge.  .004 MM is tolerance if I remember right.

Good luck on the rebuild.  Or is it just the intermediate shaft that needed fixing?

I will inspect and post pictures of everything when I remove them.

I did check #4 clearance. My notes: Intake - .25 slides, .35 have to push it in. Exhaust - .45 have to push it in, .35 slightly hits, .25 slides. The lobes were up but IIRC I decided to time the engine first and then check all 4. And of course that lead me to where I am now. My notes may have been before I understood the nuances of using the feeler guages.

Definitely scary. Everything (and everyone) seems to point to doing the rebuild myself. No complaints here.  ;D

So cleaning. Brake cleaner? What else? This is my first so I'm learning many many things.

Any recommendations on a good machinist straight edge? Prices vary. Counrty of origin to stay away from? So a flat edge, not a razor edge?

If only it was the intermediate shaft. Rebuild it I shall.


Reply #37February 21, 2018, 03:32:47 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 03:32:47 pm »
To me, it looks like a tired engine which received an "Einstein paint-mark" timing job last time aroooond.
Nothing runs like a properly rebuilt engine. Take 'err down to the crank!

edit: WAIT....is this a 12 mm bolt engine?
If not....do you have a big dumpster nearby???????

Gladly. With all the help I've received so far I can't say no.

The head bolts were tripple squares. Block is JK code. Those signs point to 12 mm. Any thing else to check to be definitive?

Reply #38February 21, 2018, 03:51:30 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2018, 03:51:30 pm »
Pictures and video of broken IM shaft, and outer bearing.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QLvWKthNRVxWEmJ8jfw8S8f_A57kM4va

I have two candidates for replacement. the gears are different sizes. I did read that the gears can be removed and pressed on. I've read how the thickness of the shaft changed from the 1.5 to1.6 engine as the 1.6 needed more room for the longer stroke. Also how the 1.5 oil pump was shorter and the 1.5 vacuum pump slot was lower to match. Anyone know, or know of a thread somewhere that explains the gear size difference? I'll probably throw the longer geared shaft in at some point and see if it works or not.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ypifmkWXvy8TajhUN5WChK0Coi4_UFxo
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 11:25:51 am by absenth »

Reply #39February 21, 2018, 06:33:08 pm

Dakotakid

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2018, 06:33:08 pm »
Yes, the JK block should well be a 12 mm bolt-er.
I am a big fan of JK blocks....I turbocharge them and they run great. I run them pretty hard...actually.

Does anybody know what the one shaft with the wide gear is from? Did the 1.5's have wide-face gears?
The intermediate bearings need to be retired and allowed to go to heaven.
Keep rocking, Comrade.
Thank you for the uranium deposits, Comrade Clintons.

Reply #40March 11, 2018, 09:40:08 pm

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2018, 09:40:08 pm »
Does the head need to be cleaner than this to accurately measure it for warping? If it does need to be cleaner any suggestions on what to use?


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Reply #41March 11, 2018, 11:11:32 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2018, 11:11:32 pm »
It looks good to me. 
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #42April 02, 2018, 01:24:01 pm

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2018, 01:24:01 pm »
Measured the head and it is within tolerence for warping.

Pulled the pistons. Need to clean, inspect and measure them and measure the bore. No broken rings.

I'm thinking about adding an oil pressure guage. I was reading this thread http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,35877.0.html. Rather than tapping the the oil filter flange or T ing off the low pressure spot on the head has anyone successfully used an oil filter flange from another MK1 or MK2 that is already set up for a sensor? I see the Cabriolets had the high pressure sensor on the oil filter flange. And a few others that might have spots for for 2 sensors. The back of the flanges that I have inspected have different patterns on the side fitted to the block. Any good thoughts on this?

Reply #43April 02, 2018, 05:37:27 pm

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2018, 05:37:27 pm »
 I use the filter flange for a turbo oil supply line.
An oil pressure sender there would crowd the place up.
 Head looks clean.
 Another way you can check for straightness is to unbolt the cam, remove the followers and see how much the cam rocks.
 Since you already know how warped your head is, this would be a good chance to try that and calibrate yourself to what a warped head cam rocks like.
 Your head doesn't look like it's been surfaced before.
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Reply #44April 03, 2018, 12:03:23 am

absenth

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Re: Play in the Intermediate Shaft
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2018, 12:03:23 am »
I use the filter flange for a turbo oil supply line.
An oil pressure sender there would crowd the place up.
 Head looks clean.
 Another way you can check for straightness is to unbolt the cam, remove the followers and see how much the cam rocks.
 Since you already know how warped your head is, this would be a good chance to try that and calibrate yourself to what a warped head cam rocks like.
 Your head doesn't look like it's been surfaced before.
Yeah, that would seem a bit crowded.

Is what you are suggesting in my Bentley? I do remember that there was a VW tool to attach a dial gauge to measure the sprocket end of the cam with tolerances.

The head is at the maximum tolerance of
.10mm. I had to buy another set of feeler gauges that included a .13mm to make sure. How much can you have removed from the head? Iím wondering how that would work with piston protrusion.


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