Starter not engaging every start, 1.6 - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Starter not engaging every start, 1.6 by Heron on 27 Dec, 2016 20:58
• Two reman'd starters from different places doing the exact same thing.
  
  Battery brand new, tested perfect, alternator perfect. Ground going to transmission and other going to chasis right next to it cleaned up.
  
  Backround; before I picked up this truck from my dad house,  he was using a key from his original truck and thought it was for this one. He lives 1000 miles away, I could not help him with it at the time but he and a friend kept trying to get the key to work...
  
  Battery terminals clean and good contact.
  
  When trying to start sometime it will catch and fire right up and other times it will just free spin and "CLUNK".  I'll shut it off and fire it again and usually it will catch.
  Had an ACDELCO reman first and now I have another from Advance with the lifetime warranty. Both starters, same symptom.
  
  I started by cleaning grounds and the wires to the starter. Connections look good, female spade connector is clean that connects to the solenoid.
  
  The bushing that the starter shaft fits into within the tranny is probably original, one came with the starters, should it be replaced?
  
  Or, could it be the ignition switch...that is what I'm thinking since my dad worked the wrong key so much I'm wondering about it..how, where would I test it?
  
  The other thought is I'm missing a ground somewhere, or perhaps I should make a ground from the bolt on the starter to the chasis?
  
  My dad said the original starter was sticking and wasn't disengaging. I didn't hear it(was not there) but I simply ordered a reman thinking it was just the original starter(135k).
  
• #1 by RustyCaddy on 27 Dec, 2016 22:45
• Yes, it could be in the ignition switch.  Maybe check the voltage to the relay on the starter.  Could be the ground too; mine has an added grounding wire coming off a bolt on the starter body,
• #2 by Heron on 28 Dec, 2016 06:34
• Quote from: RustyCaddy on 27 Dec, 2016 22:45

  Yes, it could be in the ignition switch.  Maybe check the voltage to the relay on the starter.  Could be the ground too; mine has an added grounding wire coming off a bolt on the starter body,
  

  
  Where is your starter grounded to?
  
  You said to check the relay on the starter...is there one there?
  
  Strange, when I first drove this truck in 93 I drove it on one trip(about 1000 miles) and it has been parked in a garage since then. No starter issues what so ever.
  The variables are:
  My dad used the wrong key to try to start it when he knew I was coming to pick it up
  It sat since 93 only being started every few months and ran around his yard
• #3 by RunninWild on 28 Dec, 2016 09:51
• I would try "hot wiring" the starter before I rip into the ignition and confirm it's working 100%. Run a wire from the battery and manually engage the solenoid on the starter a bunch of times. If it catches every time and spins the crank you know its a signal issue. If it's still inconsistent I would run a temporary hot wire directly from the battery to the starter and bypass the stock wiring all together. If it's still inconsistent at this point I would think it's the starter. Is there a shim between the starter and the bell housing? If it's working at this point then you know its time to start tracing your wiring...
• #4 by Heron on 28 Dec, 2016 10:40
• Quote from: RunninWild on 28 Dec, 2016 09:51

  I would try "hot wiring" the starter before I rip into the ignition and confirm it's working 100%. Run a wire from the battery and manually engage the solenoid on the starter a bunch of times. If it catches every time and spins the crank you know its a signal issue. If it's still inconsistent I would run a temporary hot wire directly from the battery to the starter and bypass the stock wiring all together. If it's still inconsistent at this point I would think it's the starter. Is there a shim between the starter and the bell housing? If it's working at this point then you know its time to start tracing your wiring...
  

  
  I don't thinks it's the starter. The original was hanging up and not disengaging and both the new starters I have put in have done the exact same thing...odds don't compute.
  
  I'm worried at this point I'm going to shear teeth off the flywheel.
  
  I'm replacing the bushing in the bellhousing first. I've read a few places that when that bushing is worn it will product symptoms of a bad solenoid. If the shaft is not perfectly aligned I'm thinking that would cause an engagement issue with the flywheel..?
  
  Outside of that it wouldn't surprise me if the wiring was an issue as there was a happy family of mice in this truck and I've found a lot of wires with pieces out of them.
  
  I've got another thread going with my charging light staying on and the alternator has been bench checked and it is good...exciter wire; which I'm still trying to figure out how to test it accurately.
• #5 by libbydiesel on 28 Dec, 2016 10:53
• I have seen what you describe caused by three different issues.  One is the ignition switch.  The next is the lock cylinder housing getting worn enough that the little pin at the back of it does not turn the ignition switch as far as it should.  The final reason is corrosion in the wire from the ignition switch to starter causing voltage drop to the solenoid.  The first two issues require component replacement.  The third issue can be addressed by replacing the wire or by adding a 'hot start relay' which will actually help your ignition switch last longer by reducing the load through it.
  
• #6 by Heron on 28 Dec, 2016 11:10
• Quote from: libbydiesel on 28 Dec, 2016 10:53

  I have seen what you describe caused by three different issues.  One is the ignition switch.  The next is the lock cylinder housing getting worn enough that the little pin at the back of it does not turn the ignition switch as far as it should.  The final reason is corrosion in the wire from the ignition switch to starter causing voltage drop to the solenoid.  The first two issues require component replacement.  The third issue can be addressed by replacing the wire or by adding a 'hot start relay' which will actually help your ignition switch last longer by reducing the load through it.
  

  
  I'm thinking ignition switch also..unfortunately I think my father boogered it up when he was trying to start it with his old vw keys from his original caddy. He kept telling me the key was messed up and I kept saying I never had an issue with it.
  I also think the bushing in the bellhousing may be adding to it. . I didn't replace it b/c it looked good but it may still be junk.
  The fact that I've had problems with 3 different starters, two eliciting the same issue and the original sticking on makes me think it's something in the switch.
  
  What do I need to order to replace the first two components? I've never seen the lock cylinder for sale anywhere? Where would you order it from?
  
  I'm wondering if the ignition switch could have something to do with my charging light not going off also(another thread). The alternator is charging, wiring was cleaned and regreased at the connections, light still stays on...  
  I have an 09 GTI that had all kinds of weird things happening, in fact was the reason I got the car so cheap when I purchased it. $40 later and an hour of time and all the faults on my Vag quit happening.
  
  
• #7 by libbydiesel on 28 Dec, 2016 16:32
• The ignition switch is very loosely engaged at the very back of the lock cylinder housing.  I do not believe that there is any way that the improper key could damage the ignition switch.  It could damage the lock cylinder housing, though.  Ignition switch is a separate circuit from the charging light circuit.  There would have to something far out to have the two be related. 
• #8 by Heron on 28 Dec, 2016 19:18
• Quote from: libbydiesel on 28 Dec, 2016 16:32

  The ignition switch is very loosely engaged at the very back of the lock cylinder housing.  I do not believe that there is any way that the improper key could damage the ignition switch.  It could damage the lock cylinder housing, though.  Ignition switch is a separate circuit from the charging light circuit.  There would have to something far out to have the two be related.
  

  
  Okay, I'm at a loss. I replaced the bushing just now, no go. Still spins, then hits the teeth. It will totally engage about every other start cycle. I tried some 1/64" shimms thinking that would help, I thought it was fixed b/c it made it like 5 starts in a row and  then jammed again.
  
  So now for the rub. I had the original starter and the new starter on the bench. Jumped them off and they both worked flawlessly. I checked the battery voltage and it is right at 650CCA's with the Solar probes connected to the starter loop and the battery ground so I know I'm getting the correct cranking amps to the starter. Cleaned up all connections to a shiny finish. I did clean up where the starter mounts to the bellhousing...not sure if that will help but I'll try it tomorrow.
  
  I have not replaced the female connector that is wrapped in the rubber, should I? 
  
  For some reason I have a vague memory about the wire not needing to be 12V that it simply actuates the solenoid. Am I wrong?
  
  I measured both the original starter and the new one and they are identical as far as shaft length etc...
• #9 by mcpook on 28 Dec, 2016 19:35
• Sounds like ignition switch to me.  I had to replace mine recently as the wipers started to have a mind of their own and the starter wasn't engaging reliably.  Turn key and click click but not turnover.  Would only do it every now and then. Pretty inexpensive part and fairly easy to swap out. 
• #10 by ORCoaster on 28 Dec, 2016 20:46
• Heron,  Thanks for the separate post on this topic.  Initially you said:
  
  When trying to start sometime it will catch and fire right up and other times it will just free spin and "CLUNK".  I'll shut it off and fire it again and usually it will catch. Had an ACDELCO reman first and now I have another from Advance with the lifetime warranty. Both starters, same symptom.
  
  Then you mentioned that you finally got around to the bushing replacement.  To assure alignment was good.
  
  So I don't think you have a problem with the starter getting juice.  Like you said, both on the bench work fine.   But in the car might be the issue.
  
  I had this same problem a few weeks back as the weather was getting colder.  Hit the key and either CLUNK or sort of free spin with no catch on the gear and flywheel.  I use some jumper cables to make sure the starter was spinning well and that the solenoid was kicking the gear forward enough.  I didn't like the way the gear only pooped out so far at times so I decided to undo those three screws that hold it on and see if the mechanism that allows the voltage on the one side of the solenoid to transfer to the starter was binding or needed some form of lubrication.
  
  As I pulled the solenoid apart I noticed some sort of gooey stuff on the inside of the whole thing.  I think it was just old oil but it was causing the two parts to sort of stick together.  Once I cleaned the inside and outside of the plunger it was totally free to move.  I threw a coat of graphite on the inside and reassembled it.  I have experienced some colder mornings with it since doing that and I have not had a problem.
  
  As for your fix I would simply take the lifetime starter back.  Or is that not possible?  Wrong shop/city now?  If that is the case then clean up the inside of the solenoid if it is bad.  Do take the time to check that female plug.  That is what engages the solenoid and if it is not connecting well then the rest of the mechanism won't work either.
   
  Hope that gives some insight on a potential sticking point. 
  
• #11 by Heron on 28 Dec, 2016 21:28
• Quote from: ORCoaster on 28 Dec, 2016 20:46

  Heron,  Thanks for the separate post on this topic.  Initially you said:
  
  When trying to start sometime it will catch and fire right up and other times it will just free spin and "CLUNK".  I'll shut it off and fire it again and usually it will catch. Had an ACDELCO reman first and now I have another from Advance with the lifetime warranty. Both starters, same symptom.
  
  Then you mentioned that you finally got around to the bushing replacement.  To assure alignment was good.
  
  So I don't think you have a problem with the starter getting juice.  Like you said, both on the bench work fine.   But in the car might be the issue.
  
  I had this same problem a few weeks back as the weather was getting colder.  Hit the key and either CLUNK or sort of free spin with no catch on the gear and flywheel.  I use some jumper cables to make sure the starter was spinning well and that the solenoid was kicking the gear forward enough.  I didn't like the way the gear only pooped out so far at times so I decided to undo those three screws that hold it on and see if the mechanism that allows the voltage on the one side of the solenoid to transfer to the starter was binding or needed some form of lubrication.
  
  As I pulled the solenoid apart I noticed some sort of gooey stuff on the inside of the whole thing.  I think it was just old oil but it was causing the two parts to sort of stick together.  Once I cleaned the inside and outside of the plunger it was totally free to move.  I threw a coat of graphite on the inside and reassembled it.  I have experienced some colder mornings with it since doing that and I have not had a problem.
  
  As for your fix I would simply take the lifetime starter back.  Or is that not possible?  Wrong shop/city now?  If that is the case then clean up the inside of the solenoid if it is bad.  Do take the time to check that female plug.  That is what engages the solenoid and if it is not connecting well then the rest of the mechanism won't work either.
   
  Hope that gives some insight on a potential sticking point.
  

  
  Yes, I have tried 2 remans and they both have done the same thing. I tested the original starter along with the new reman today and they both worked flawlessly jumped. I can definitely take the new one back but I'm not convinced it's the starter at this point. I wonder if it's a slight alignment issue. I may dump the old starter that my father said was sticking on back in since I saw it work great on the bench and see what it does. I will clean it up first as you suggested. I can see where the old housing made an impression the bellhousing but the new one is maybe 3mm over from that impression. No room in the bolt holes to swivel it over. It did seem to respond better when I shimmed it. I may shimm it again and apply pressure over towards the flywheel and see what happens.
  
  I have not checked voltage at the solenoid wire coming from the panel. I've read in places it must be 12 and others say it just needs to be minimal to trip the switch in the solenoid. I may cut off the female connector and put a new one on also just to be safe.
  
  More and more I'm leaning towards grounds and fusebox .  I have found one ground that goes from the battery to the transmission and another from the battery to the chasis.
  They look fine but are original. I'm wondering if they all should just be totally replaced instead of just cleaned up...? 
• #12 by RustyCaddy on 28 Dec, 2016 22:02
• For a direct ground to the battery you can attach a wire to one of the screws/bolts on the end of the starter cover opposite from the transmission mount side. Sand the contact clean and may be add electrical conducting grease (not dielectric grease) and ground to the negative post of the battery.  The truck had a weird electrical gremlin at the starter may be 8 years ago and after adding a ground haven't had a problem EXCEPT when the spade to the solenoid worked itself a little loose (sorry about when i called the solenoid a relay earlier).
• #13 by Heron on 29 Dec, 2016 13:32
• Quote from: RustyCaddy on 28 Dec, 2016 22:02

  For a direct ground to the battery you can attach a wire to one of the screws/bolts on the end of the starter cover opposite from the transmission mount side. Sand the contact clean and may be add electrical conducting grease (not dielectric grease) and ground to the negative post of the battery.  The truck had a weird electrical gremlin at the starter may be 8 years ago and after adding a ground haven't had a problem EXCEPT when the spade to the solenoid worked itself a little loose (sorry about when i called the solenoid a relay earlier).
  

  
  Basically from what you are saying if the ground is not good enough the starters is not getting enough current under load therefore the gear is not engaging properly... am I on the right track?
  As I said earlier both new starters did the same thing and the original starter stuck on. But, testing them outside the truck the one new one I have and the old one tested great...but again without having any potential alignment issues or duress from a possible ground issue.
  
  I think I'll test the the ignition wire first, check grounds at the strut tower(have not done that yet) and then add another ground to the starter case. I did clean up the bellhousing where the starter mates.
  I'm also going to play with shimming it up further and messing with the alignment.
  I'm also going to clean up the solenoid on the original starter and put it in again to see if it works better than the reman.. I appreciate everyone's input. This electrical stuff is definitely not my forte. But maybe I'm supposed to learn a bit more from this mystery along with the exciter wire issue.
  
• #14 by Heron on 02 Jan, 2017 06:34
• Ended up cleaning up the original starter and putting it back in. No issues. Moral of the story is the reman'd starters are crap as I went thru 2 that had the exact same issue. I don't know what I'll do if the original messes up!