Timing Question

[phish32786]

Hey All,

Hopefully this is an easy one.

So the 1.6d in my '86 Golf stopped starting up once it got a little colder. I know its pretty well due for a rebuild, but it's not a winter car so its not a huge deal. I just bought the car a couple of months ago and I'm going through my list of things to get done and I've gotten to belts.

So I started the procedure to get the timing belt replaced and I noticed that when the flywheel is at TDC the lobes on the camshaft are pointing up at Cylinder 4 not 1.

Other thing I noticed is when rolling the engine back with the Dial Gauge I'm getting zero movement of the needle until I roll it way back (from what I've read other places it shouldn't take much to get the gauge to move and stop).

The Old Owner did a head gasket and wasn't much a of a Diesel guy so I'm not horribly surprised it could be off. I'm just getting into it, but I've been around a few 8 Valve's so I know the basics.

My question is, would it be possible for the car to run in this state when it was warmer out allowing the process to start easier? I know 1 and 4 are both up at TDC so that would explain the valves maybe not getting completely destroyed.

Any help would be great! Lots of really good information here.

Thanks!

-Mike

[RunninWild]

the timing is pretty basic on these, it seems a lot more complicated then it really is.
line up the crank at TDC, loosen belt tension, remove old belt, install new one
loosen the cam bolt, put the locking plate in the back of the head you can space both sides of the plate evenly with feeler gauges if you want to be 100% sure its tdc (I've never done this and I've never had problems)
set belt tension
set pump timing to spec
remove locking plate and tighten cam
rotate the crank twice and make sure your timing marks all line up.

If your timing was way off it most likely wouldnt have started in the first place. Where did you get your dial gauge and adapter from? I bought a cheap set from prothe and the pin on the dial gauge wasnt long enough to seat properly in the pump and give an accurate reading. Maybe that is your issue? That being said if your pump was too far retarded it could add to hard starting. I would also test your glow plugs. Easiest way for the stock setup is to verify 12v on the copper rail when the glow plug light is on, cycle the plugs a few times then feel the head around the plugs. If its warm to the touch (warmer then ambient anyways) then they should be working half decently. Unless it is very cold out (below freezing) or you have bad compression it shouldn't be very hard to start these engines.

[phish32786]

Thanks,

I got the gauge off ebay, only issue with mine is if I preload at 2.5mm like the Bentley mentions I can't keep the gauge in with the set screw because its not far enough in, its like the gauge is a little long. If I set it to 5MM I can lock it down just fine, and it seems to move OK just takes a lot of backwards to do it.

[RunninWild]

follow this guide. http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28 It shouldnt matter where you preload the gauge really. Youre just making sure its in far enough that it can fully reach the bottom of the cam and not bottom itself out.

[libbydiesel]

So I started the procedure to get the timing belt replaced and I noticed that when the flywheel is at TDC the lobes on the camshaft are pointing up at Cylinder 4 not 1.

Other thing I noticed is when rolling the engine back with the Dial Gauge I'm getting zero movement of the needle until I roll it way back (from what I've read other places it shouldn't take much to get the gauge to move and stop).

The Crankshaft rotates twice for every revolution of the cam and pump.  The crank is at TDC for #1 and #4 at the same time.  When the crank is at TDC, the thing that determine whether or not it is TDC on the compression/power for #1 or #4 is the cam.  The pump is properly timed when it is injecting for the correct cylinder and has the correct plunger lift when at TDC for that cylinder. 

From your description that 'when the flywheel is at TDC, the lobes of the camshaft are pointing up at cylinder 4 not 1' - the simple solution is to rotate the crankshaft one complete revolution back to TDC.  At that point the cam lobes will be pointing UP for #1 instead of #4. 

If, on the other hand, you are saying that when the crank is at TDC AND the pump pin is in place in the correct hole in the sprocket, the cam lobes are up for #4, then your pump is 180° out of time.  It will run that way, but will start poorly and lack some power.

[phish32786]

If, on the other hand, you are saying that when the crank is at TDC AND the pump pin is in place in the correct hole in the sprocket, the cam lobes are up for #4, then your pump is 180° out of time.  It will run that way, but will start poorly and lack some power.

I think you nailed it with the last part. It's always been a *** starter, lots of cranking needed and only started reliably when it was maybe 70+ degrees out. I just got the lower belt cover off and all that so should be putting back together here tonight. I'll report back :-) thanks for all the advice everyone!


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[phish32786]

Well no go so far. Im going to try timing the pump again this weekend and see if it's way out of wack. Car wants to start just never gets going. Im also going to run a compression test too, car was blowing oil put of the dip stick so maybe it's just time for a rebuild. 


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[air-cooled or diesel]

note Runin' 1st post on the situation/how to time is very incomplete, there are a good few more steps.

,i go with the napa brand, as it turns out they sell wix.

[Toby]

You guys are missing the boat here. If a diesel quits starting in the cold it's virtually always low compression, as long as you have functional glow plugs.

The problem is that you have built yourself a nice trap. Now you have no idea whats wrong, now.

The first thing to do is check your compression. If its low you are all done. Low to the factory is 395 psi. They will start lower than that but not well or at all in the cold. You do not need any kind of fudge factor running the compression test. If it does not have enough to start it does not have enough to start. Anything else is wishful thinking. Whatever it is it will go up when hot, but you need enough to start. Once it has been started, it will continue to start until it cools off again.

What do you have your timing set at? The more advance (up to a point) the better that start. I would try 1.05 initially.

Are you sure you have the cam and IP timed right? That means: cam locked, IP locked with the pin, and engine at TDC.
If not fix that end then set the IP timing. Make sure you have the correct mark for TDC.

hard starting can also be air in the lines into the pump, which is either cause by a seal leak in the IP, (usually the pump shaft seal, but not always) or somewhere between the IP banjo fitting and the tank. Usually close to the IP.

If all else fails, tow start it. I have had some worn out ones that needed 1/2 a mile to start but I have never seen one that wouldn't start by being towed.

Sometimes they get so full of fuel when cold that they won't start. Towing will blow out the crap and get them running so you can troubleshoot the real problem.

Oh, make sure you are ready to kill the motor if it runs away. Turning off the key won't do it.

[phish32786]

So sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys, life with a 9 month old :-P.

Anyways, turned out the pump was way out of time. After I managed to get my dial working, it was running .60 which is out of spec. Retimed to .90 and she ran A-OK.

Also the Pump and the cam were timed together OK, just the crank was 180 out hence why it was running before just made retiming it a trip LOL so that would explain that.

Car was running great, still need to run a compression test, just got everything in. But then the water pump went out made for a run stop and start drive home.

Thanks for all the great advice and I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.

Till next time - Mike