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Rebuilt pump will not run
by
ross1905
on 20 Jun, 2016 16:16
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Hi, i know not my VW this time but basically the same pump! I have recently stripped and completely re-sealed the Bosch VE on my little n/a 205 as it had a partially seized vane pump. Problem is it will now not start or run whatsoever whereas it just about did before. I'm perplexed as I'm 99% sure it's assembled correctly, I'm very familiar with these pumps, have had them to bits many times before and I understand how they function.
Spent hours troubleshooting and have got no where with this one. Camplate is in correct, plunger isn't stuck, delivery valves clear (have since swapped these out), stop solenoid lifts fine, throttle arm at correct position etc etc.
To the point, all I've found is that when I fit one of the Lucas pumps to the car, the primer will stay solid once it's primed. I cannot get the primer to stay solid on this VE. It looses pressure within seconds and there are air bubbles from the return line regularly when priming. There's also a quiet squeak from the pump when priming, sounds like a leak but no diesel leaks. Maybe air getting in though? If you take the injection lines off and crank it over, it dribbles fuel out of 3 delivery valves and only 1 valve actually has any pressure (hence refusal to start). Ime, even with a very small air leak to the pump, they normally still fire up. I believe the dribbling delivery valves and the fact it won't hold pressure from priming is related but struggling to find why this is happening? I didn't use genuine seals this time if that matters?? Thanks so much to anyone who can help!
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#1
by
RabbitJockey
on 21 Jun, 2016 14:36
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have you tried installing an electric pump? did you lube the vane pump with grease maybe the vanes are sticking because of that, i might just take the electric pump, or a tow start to get it going.
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#2
by
libbydiesel
on 21 Jun, 2016 17:45
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How does a vane pump 'partially seize'? I've only had one that had issues and there was nothing partial about it.
After the partial seizure, did you replace the fuel distributor, delivery valves, and injectors? If not, how do you know they weren't damaged by the swarf?
Did you install the vane pump outer ring the right direction? If it's flipped over, it will push fuel out of the pump rather than pulling it in and it will not run.
I have no idea if the non-Bosch seals are an issue. I guess that depends on the quality of them, which is a complete unknown. The cost of an authentic Bosch rebuild kit is <$20. Considering how much labor goes into changing the seals/o-rings and how much work it is to R+R the pump and tune it properly I can't imagine wanting to risk unknown quality to save <$20. That strikes me as seriously false economy.
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#3
by
ORCoaster
on 21 Jun, 2016 19:51
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I am going to say Partially seized Vane Pump means one or more of the vanes were actually sticking in their slots and not moving out to the edge of the pump to push fuel. Is that a correct or incorrect assumption on my part, about the part?
I hate to say this but I too was under the impression I could rebuild it wrong. With that going on in my head I sourced out a ton of reasons why my engine was not starting and eventually I landed on the place you always have to go to when this happens. What was the last thing you were doing to the engine before this problem reared its ugly head? I would say you have to go back and prove to yourself that the IP is indeed built the proper way. Like Libby suggests some parts are flipable but don't work if you happen to flip them.
Sorry man that is what I would be doing just to clear that question up. If the Vanes don't pressure up the first part of the pump then the rest and fuel coming in doesn't happen either. Did you fool, I mean tap the regulator in the front down and out and clean it up? That is a hard one to correct without a measurement device on the IP itself on the out bolt. You may need to drive it down a 1/16 of an inch or so at at time to get it to run.
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#4
by
libbydiesel
on 21 Jun, 2016 23:26
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I am going to say Partially seized Vane Pump means one or more of the vanes were actually sticking in their slots and not moving out to the edge of the pump to push fuel. Is that a correct or incorrect assumption on my part, about the part?
Ah, that might make some sense. I've had the vanes stick, but wouldn't have called the pump seized. The one vane pump I had seize, welded itself to the cover plate, sheared the pump mounting bolts in the case, sheared the sprocket key, welded the sprocket to the main pump shaft, etc... It was a mess.
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#5
by
ORCoaster
on 21 Jun, 2016 23:52
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Libby I think that qualifies as a complete siezure of the internals of the IP. That's what running boost will do for you.
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#6
by
libbydiesel
on 22 Jun, 2016 10:51
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I don't think it had anything to do with boost. The only parts seized were the vane pump center to the cover plate and the pump sprocket to the main shaft. I actually managed to get it started like that and drive it home about 4 blocks...
I still have the vane pump center hub that is welded to the cover plate in my pile of souvenirs.
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#7
by
ross1905
on 22 Jun, 2016 18:54
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Thanks for the replies guys, I will strip it again and re-do with genuine seals in the hope it will get rid of the supposed air leak 'squeak' it has.
Yes, by partially seized vane pump I mean a couple of the vanes sticking in the rotor, that's all. No damage.
Its a possibility the stator could be in the wrong way but I doubt it, we'll see.
If you mean what I think you mean - I removed the pressure regulator itself, changed the seals and re-fitted it. I understand IPP can be adjusted by tapping the top of this when running on a test bench.
I tried tow starting it and it would inject and burn fuel but wouldnt run on its own. With the lines off and being towed all the d.valves began to spray fuel evenly but still wouldn't run. Seems to me an air ingress/internal pump pressure issue somewhere.
Some vanes could have seized again in the day or so the pump was left empty before it went on the car but i'm not so sure.
I've always re-assembled pumps with clean diesel and nothing else apart from a dab of grease to hold the leverset return springs in the head.
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#8
by
libbydiesel
on 22 Jun, 2016 19:33
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If you have a clear line for supply, you can watch it while cranking to see if the vane pump ring is in upside down. If it is upside down, the fuel (or bubbles) will flow away from the pump while cranking.
Any chance you installed the camplate 180° out? How about when installing the pump, any chance it is 180° out from the cam?
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#9
by
ORCoaster
on 22 Jun, 2016 22:16
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Wouldn't it be a HOOT if he did both 180 outs and it ran just fine.
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#10
by
ross1905
on 24 Jun, 2016 19:46
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Nope no common mistakes here. Nothing is out of time, it'll run whilst towed quickly - soon as you dip the clutch and try and rev it it'll die and wont restart. Air bubbles regularly flow from the return, nothing back down the feed so stator is probably in correctly. Has got to be an air or pressure problem I think. I'll rebuild again with genuine seals this time and see where we get, first time using aftermarket seals to be honest, never had an issue with bosch ones. May well be the mistake not to be made again.
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#11
by
sgnimj96
on 25 Jun, 2016 08:22
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Don't give up yet. Re-doing the seals may not do anything.
Can you get all the air bubbles out with an electric fuel pump or mightvac; any serious restriction in the inlet fuel line (all the way back to the tank), check the copper seal on the pump inlet banjo (I accidently had 2 there once and it sucked a lot of air); check/turn up the fuel setting and/or idle.
I sounds like it's barely getting fuel
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#12
by
ross1905
on 27 Jun, 2016 19:18
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Taken it to bits again and every single piece is in correctly - except possibly for one, hey!
It seems the problem (or part of it) is me being my own worst enemy! Many thanks to libby for bringing up that the stator/vane pump ring could possibly be flipped...it makes sense as I rushed this pump back together to get the car going again quickly (which backfired as we know)
At the time I had a thought and really didn't think about this being a strong possibility for its complete refusal to run; it starts to make some sense now. Here's hoping the original problem can now be fixed also!
In the photo below is how I lifted the stator out from the housing - if you look in the housing you can see its position would be in backwards/flipped over...DOH
Now just to fit it to the car again, fingers crossed!
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#13
by
ORCoaster
on 27 Jun, 2016 21:12
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Don't beat yourself up over this. Just learn that it is always, and I do mean always better to slow down, do it right the first time and save all the time you spend chasing down the stoooopid thing you did during the rush job. I can't even begin to tell you the dumb things I have done in the past 30 plus years fixing engines. I think most of the time it was me, sometimes the wrong part and even less times because I just didn't know what I was doing as it was the first time I did it.
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#14
by
ross1905
on 30 Jun, 2016 18:35
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Okay guys, you're probably getting as bored of this as I am!
Flipped the vane pump ring over to the correct way, re-assembled again made sure everything was perfect.
Fitted to car, everything is exactly the same! Will not run or pump fuel.
No injector lines fitted, throttle flat out, it will dribble fuel erratically when turned over.
Delivery valves out, fuel pours from every port but at different rates! Some will have more pressure than others, and its completely at random which one has more than another!
Removed the center nut to the pumping chamber (d.valves back in), and get lots of nice, clean big pulses of fuel from here at a steady rate as you'd expect.
Makes me think there's an issue with the head? Already tried countless different sets of delivery valves, no difference.
Still, even if it is the head itself at fault - why? Remember, this pump did actually run before I pulled it apart, cannot fathom what the issue is here!