The whole 1.9 head on a 1.6 block thing? - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• The whole 1.9 head on a 1.6 block thing? by Bugsy_malone 666 on 15 May, 2016 15:02
• Ok so I have a 1.6NA and it turns out the valves are pretty worn, which I find out after I have finished porting them  however the seats are worn too. So I went to a machine shop and confirmed that basically you need to replace the lot(I'm not daft, but was seeing how much you could get away with), which would be fine if it wasnt so expensive to do compared to the price of a used running engine or some type!
  
  So I spotted a 1.9 head on ebay, dont a bit of searching through this and a few other forums and came to the conclusion:
  
  -It drops straight on, with stock head bolts
  -extra oil gallery drain away at the front that needs addressing for use on a 1.6NA block (with a plug of some sort)
  -cam wheel swaps over
  -different rocker cover/gasket
  
  but the headgasket?
  
  It seems people are using 1.9 ones from what I have seen, I just bought a 1.6 one recently before I'd finished the head, will that be a problem? I'd imagine its more critical the head gasket matches the cylinders so they seal correctly? are all the other holes in the right place (except the one you have to block)
  
  I figured a used 1.9 head (with hydro lifters replaced with new ones and I am running a 36mm GTi pump) thats a maximum of 20 years old would be far less worn than an 83 1.6NA head, plus wont need me to re polish and port as naturally the ports are bigger.
• #1 by vanbcguy on 15 May, 2016 22:51
• If your bottom end isn't totally healthy you'll run in to troubles with this approach. The 1.9 head has larger prechambers which drop the compression ratio a few points - the result often tends to be excessive white smoke during warm up if not running and starting problems.
  
  Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
  
  
• #2 by Bugsy_malone 666 on 16 May, 2016 01:47
• I wouldnt say my bottom end is unhealthy :lol: but its not a brand new build thats for sure. I think it has a little end float but previously when it was all up and running it started on the button and ran pretty clean.
  
  I guess I was looking at the approach that its more expensive to do anything with the valves considering this is an NA engine than the price of a 1.9td head I have spotted in running condition.
  
  Being in the UK its never really super cold, plus the vehicle I am fitting the engine too will have an eberspacher heater fitted, meaning the engine wont be totally cold when its started up
  
  I guess its the headgasket bit I have been looking at at the moment as it doesnt seem mentioned that much.
• #3 by air-cooled or diesel on 16 May, 2016 07:14
• a few weeks ago we had another post similar to this, the guy had the ip timing soo far advanced and still had problems with this set-up.
• #4 by Bugsy_malone 666 on 16 May, 2016 08:13
• Quote from: air-cooled or diesel on 16 May, 2016 07:14

  a few weeks ago we had another post similar to this, the guy had the ip timing soo far advanced and still had problems with this set-up.
  

  
  That sounds a bit like 'challenge accepted'
  
  Question was, did he run 1.6 injectors or the 1.9 injectors?
  
  It does seem like reading up this setup may help the situation I have, an NA bottom end with no piston squirters so cooler running temps a must, the lower comp ratio might help out a fair bit on that. Thats why I was curious about head gaskets as I had been reading you can also get different thickness and different piston protrusion equaling several cc of squish that can be gained.
  
  Looking at the internet it says diesel compression is upwards of 14:1, I'd imagine that would smoke! but higher CR is to improve efficiency. Cummins 6.7l = 17.3:1 CR apparently, ford power stroke is 17.5:1, 2011 vw 2litre TDi = 16.5:1! and I think the 1.9 mod is supposed to bring it down from 22:1 to about 19:1? admittedly I think most of the engines are direct injection as opposed to pre cups but diesel will work at lower CR if setup right clearly!
• #5 by air-cooled or diesel on 16 May, 2016 10:50
• iirc the post was by golfmk11dr, currently at the bottom of this page, franken set-up, if i remember he gave up and stuck a 1.6 head back on,,
• #6 by libbydiesel on 16 May, 2016 11:19
• The compression ratio of IDI engines needs to be a fair amount higher than DI engines in order to allow them to start reliably and not smoke excessively. 
• #7 by fatmobile on 16 May, 2016 12:41
•  If the seats are worn you don't usually need to replace them, just have them machined.
   Valves, guides and seals for a mechanical head are only around $100 for all of them new.
  So $100 plus grind the seats and install the guides. Probably cheaper than a 1.9 head and it'll be fresh, fresh, fresh.
• #8 by Jetmugg on 16 May, 2016 14:34
• Do you have a block which was originally designed for a hydraulic head, or do you plan to "convert" the AAZ head to mechanical operation?
  
  Steve.
  
  
• #9 by Bugsy_malone 666 on 17 May, 2016 03:25
• Quote from: fatmobile on 16 May, 2016 12:41

  If the seats are worn you don't usually need to replace them, just have them machined.
   Valves, guides and seals for a mechanical head are only around $100 for all of them new.
  So $100 plus grind the seats and install the guides. Probably cheaper than a 1.9 head and it'll be fresh, fresh, fresh.
  

  
  Yeah already looked into the whole replacement thing and by the time I get the replacement valves, guides, machining work and all new shims, your looking at about $500. Im in the UK and its alot more expensive than a 1.9 head funny enough! I love how you guys always rebuild your stuff, but it seems i nthe UK machine work is a dying art and people throw away all the time.
• #10 by Bugsy_malone 666 on 17 May, 2016 03:44
• Quote from: Jetmugg on 16 May, 2016 14:34

  Do you have a block which was originally designed for a hydraulic head, or do you plan to "convert" the AAZ head to mechanical operation?
  
  Steve.
  

  
  The block is a 1.6NA which I originally was planning to just rebuild as is with a polish and port, then add a K24 turbo and a td pump as my TD engine gave up, not going for all out horsepower . However when I took the head off and found out how many parts it needed I started looking for a replacement head option, it was about $500 worth of parts as you need new valves, cotters (as mine are singles and all the new ones seem to be 3 rib) new shims, guide and all the machine work, I have a head on watch on ebay that works out 70$ quite local.
  
  So I figured firstly reduced price in putting the 1.9 on, the advantage of hydraulic tappets, which I have new ones of in a pack I got really cheap on ebay(job lot ), then I started reading a few threads. I didnt come across any reason why not go hydro as no future adjustment and as I fitted a 36mm oil pump anyway (from a GTi engine so there was plenty of oil for the turbo). I know the 1.9 head has an extra oil run away on the front of the head that needs plugging.
  
  Its more budget building a working engine, while reaping some of the benefits of better ports/gas flow and hydraulic tappets that dont need checking.
  
  I basically already ended up with alot of parts as I was supposed to be building a 2litre GTi engine, so bought new hydros and gasket kits to find the bores had been wrecked by rust, figured everything is the same except the headgasket for the 1.6d, so bought all the cambelt stuff for the D and was going to use the gti gaskets, along with the IP and turbo from the 1.6TD I had fail on me (havent stripped yet but sure the valves were dancing on the pistons so I'd new valves/pistons and its just expensive.)
  
  Which lands me here. A place where a load of money has been spent and have gotten to a point where I can see it will spiral if I am not careful. Dont get me wrong if I wasnt getting married a few weeks I'd probably have more budget, strip the 1.6 TD block, get over size pistons a 1.9TD Head, do all the trickets and build something thats about 200bhp, but alas, 70bhp is fine for me, but cheaper is where I am at
• #11 by golfmk1tdr on 17 May, 2016 06:29
• Quote from: air-cooled or diesel on 16 May, 2016 10:50

  iirc the post was by golfmk11dr, currently at the bottom of this page, franken set-up, if i remember he gave up and stuck a 1.6 head back on,,
  

  
  I didn't put 1.6 head on, I will rebiuld it all again when I have time and money to throw at it, but car is put on hold.  Bought myself a 6gen Civic for the time being but I miss diesel torque and power a lot (V-tec is cool for track but for road driving TD power is the faster, cheaper and more fun).
  
  

  Quote from: Bugsy_malone 666 on 15 May, 2016 15:02

  Ok so I have a 1.6NA and it turns out the valves are pretty worn, which I find out after I have finished porting them  however the seats are worn too. So I went to a machine shop and confirmed that basically you need to replace the lot(I'm not daft, but was seeing how much you could get away with), which would be fine if it wasnt so expensive to do compared to the price of a used running engine or some type!
  
  So I spotted a 1.9 head on ebay, dont a bit of searching through this and a few other forums and came to the conclusion:
  
  -It drops straight on, with stock head bolts
  -extra oil gallery drain away at the front that needs addressing for use on a 1.6NA block (with a plug of some sort)
  -cam wheel swaps over
  -different rocker cover/gasket
  
  but the headgasket?
  
  It seems people are using 1.9 ones from what I have seen, I just bought a 1.6 one recently before I'd finished the head, will that be a problem? I'd imagine its more critical the head gasket matches the cylinders so they seal correctly? are all the other holes in the right place (except the one you have to block)
  
  I figured a used 1.9 head (with hydro lifters replaced with new ones and I am running a 36mm GTi pump) thats a maximum of 20 years old would be far less worn than an 83 1.6NA head, plus wont need me to re polish and port as naturally the ports are bigger.
  

  
  YOU NEED GOOD AS NEW BOTTOM END FOR THIS GAME (and head of course). If it was running great on 1.6 that doesn't mean bottom end is good. Do yourself a favor and measure it. My engine was running great before 1.9 head and now it's running like *** (completely undrivable).
  
  What do you want from this?
  
  If you just want to drive normal(ish) get yourself good used 1.6 NA/TD head (NA head is the same if you ask me, TD valves are cooled but it makes no difference really and most TD are worn to death so NA could be safer bet)
  
  If you want over 150 HP then MAYBE think about 1.9. But I don't think it will be cheaper doing 1.9 (it definetly wasn't for me) Measure bore, if it's inside wear tolerance (I doubt it) repair hone, put new rings on it.
  If it's outside tolerance then definitely ovebore, bigger pistons, rebiuld...
  
  I was in the exact same spot few months ago as you are right now, so I am just telling what I learned from my misery.
  
  Also, are you sure 1.9 that is for sale will be in good condition? Is your head cracked badly? You do realize that bigger valves (main advantage of 1.9) are also sold for 1.6?
• #12 by Bugsy_malone 666 on 17 May, 2016 13:24
• Well i checked with seller and the head has about 90k on it. Seems 1.6 diesel parts are not easy or cheap to come by in the uk, 1.9s are much more common although people tend to want a fair price for a complete engine with about 9billion miles on seems more common to get parts like a head.
  
  One question is did you use 1.6 or 1.9 injectors?
  
  Im surprised that the precups make such a massive difference. I also have the fun of rebuilding a spare ip for this project too.
  
• #13 by golfmk1tdr on 17 May, 2016 13:41
• Quote from: Bugsy_malone 666 on 17 May, 2016 13:24

  Well i checked with seller and the head has about 90k on it. Seems 1.6 diesel parts are not easy or cheap to come by in the uk, 1.9s are much more common although people tend to want a fair price for a complete engine with about 9billion miles on seems more common to get parts like a head.
  
  One question is did you use 1.6 or 1.9 injectors?
  
  Im surprised that the precups make such a massive difference. I also have the fun of rebuilding a spare ip for this project too.
  

  
  All I know is that 1.6 ran perfectly before I put 1.9 head on it. Maybe the head is bad, but I had other people report to me with same/similar problem being solved by putting back on 1.6 head on their cars. Make of that what you will.
  
  I ran 1.6 GTD injectors, they are bit better than 1.9, also they are 1 yr. rebiuld and checked before assembling.
  
  1.6 parts and engines are really common and cheap here (Slovenia), I acquired my 3 heads by accident (not perfect bu cheap) and I know of other for normal money.
  
  What is normal price for 1.6 TD good used head in UK?
• #14 by libbydiesel on 17 May, 2016 16:57
• It is not the 'precups' (inserts) that make the difference, it is the volume of the precombustion chambers and the increased surface area.  The volume of the precombustion chamber is sized proportional to the displacement of the engine.  Placing the head with larger chambers on a block with smaller displacement significantly drops compression. 
  
  The use of 1.6 or 1.9 injectors will not make any significant difference in the ease of starting or the amount of smoke.  They will change the sound of the engine some.
  
  If you are planning BIG boost and don't care if it's hard to start and excessively smoky, go for it.  Otherwise, buying a less expensive part that won't work vs. buying a more expensive part that will work doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.