How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?

[Otis2]

I'm interested in jtanguay's questions, too, if you have a tachometer in the van.  I'm curious what kind of lag you experience with your K24.  Andrew (libbybapa) has complained that the K24 lag gets pretty ugly on a van, so he uses a K14.  If you have only 7 psi max boost at the moment, I wonder how much more boost you will be able to add from there, and at what point of the rpm band it kicks in.  If you get any more than 16 psi, I want to know your secret!

The intercooler is a real trial in the vans.  Every choice is a compromise with a downside of one kind or another.  I went watercooled: http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3684

I suspect that with the poor airflow you have to your intercooler at the moment, that you were getting heat soak of the core.  There's no way for the heat to dissipate without proper airflow there, so the heat just adds up.  I would not be surprised if the intercooler were markedly hotter than the air coming from the turbo.  So at the moment, you have an interheater.

Also, I wonder how much of the heat issue is the close proximity of your exhaust pipe.  

The fan is a good idea, but maybe some external ducting would make it even better.  I've seen a photo of someone who attached reasonably subtle "ram-air scoops" to the factory removable plastic air vents up top on the outside wall.  Supposedly it markedly helped airflow to the engine compartment.  I think he used some kind of flexible plastic sheet, moulded to the vents, and then painted body colour.  Looked very sano.

I'm sure Andrew's (libbybapa's) ram-air solution would help, too, but I just can't get past the aesthetic of ripping open the sheet metal around the side marker light.  As I said, everything's a compromise - pick your devil and live with it.

edit - andrew's scoop photos:

[Baxter]

Hmmm auxiliary fan for your intercooler... good idea!  I'm surprised to hear that your oil temp is 'warm' after an uphill climb.   What speed were you going? What were the rpm's/gear?  Was the turbo producing your max boost all the way up?

Warm, very scientific eh!

Hill, hang on, lets find some number, I know how you lot just love numbers...

280 meters to 520 metres (240 metres up) in 2.4 kilometers, it's quite steep in places, not so in others.

I was behind another van, probably doing 20-40 mph depending on gradient, max boost all the way, thing is, we have corners in this counrty, so gears, speed, revs were constantly variable!
 :lol:

[Baxter]

Here is a picture of a T3 B32, which was one of 9 T3's built by Porshe, note the extra air intake on the rear corner.



Also, a popular mod is to take the 3 louvered grilles from the side of a T3 crewcab or Pick up and weld them into the pillar just behind the arch.

Yeah about close to the exhaust thing, I have some sheets of ally at work to make a piece to sit at the bottom of the cooler to shield it for stones from the wheel etc and was also going to put a shield on the exhaust but like you say, everything is  comprimise. From my point of view it runs cooler that it did so im somewhere in the right region.

Also, Im a mechanic by trade I work on these things all day long, working on my own van doesn't do much for me in the way of enjoyment! I would love to take measurements and see what works and how much difference it makes but to be honest I just want it fixed and quick! There will be some degree of mucking about for sure, just not as much as if I was an accountant or something! I don't need that in my life!

[Baxter]

Im just doing a frantic search for the air inlet ducting you mentioned as I have seen that somewhere, I was sure it was on the small car website about the SVX engined van but I can't find it.

It was basically a black plastic tray that has been chopped and it sat in the hole nicely..

There is these but Im not sure if the reported better airflow will offer much over stock..

http://www.vw-winkler.de/shop3/product_info.php/info/p30_Air-conduct.html

I think the fan running constantly and the shield open more to the rear of the van where there is naturally an area of low pressure to draw out the air will be fine, plus a shield on the exhaust of course.

As for the pictures above of the side of the van opened up, we wouldn't get away with that here, our once a year MOT test would fail that as sharp edges and the construction and uses regulations would not like it and deem it as a "dangerous projection"

[Baxter]

Yeah, mine has the K14, bog stock.
The engine was a supposed scrapper, customer wanted a AAZ fitting, this was what was left.
All I could find wrong with the old motor was the pipe was off the LDA.
I stripped it and rebuilt it with new bearings etc, new intermediate shaft bearings la di da...
Other than the coolers it's stock.

I must address this over revving, not returning to idle issue as I have no engine braking, I've just smoked my brakes on a long decent! :shock:

May just go back with the fuel screw a little  :?:

As for that hill I was on about earlier, just been back up to get an Ice Cream!

Max boost is achieved at 3000rpm. Travelled between 30 and 40mph, engine is revving just over 3000rpm in 3rd.

No engine cooling fan coming on, guage does not go above half.

[Otis2]

Mr. B, if you work on T25s all the time professionally, then I guess working on your own van would be kind of like a "busman's holiday"?  (Couldn't resist.)

Here's a photo of what I was thinking about (not the same one, but pretty close).  If it were me, I'd paint it body coloured:



I expect this would have a more aggressive scoop effect than that Winkler one you linked, as it projects out from the wall by maybe 3 or 4 inches (maybe illegal in your MOT?).

Thanks for the B32 photo - I've never heard of that beast.  I'm sure none made it over to North America!

Thanks also for clearing up that the K14 was the factory turbo on your JX engine.  I assumed it was a K24 like in the cars.

I'm waiting for a hot day to do some hill testing with my T3/AAZ rig, but I think I probably have around the same 7 psi boost at 3000 rpm as Mr. B, the difference being my boost keeps rising to a peak of about 16 psi by 4000 rpm.  I have disconnected the pressure hose to the wastegate, but that's all the juice it's gonna give me.

Lag is much more noticeable than with the now-defunct K03, although that lag experience is masked by the torque produced by overfuelling the pump.  

I'm running the 4 speed gasser transmission with 27.5" tires (so probably quite different gearing to either Andrew or Mr. B.).  The exhaust now smokes in 2nd gear if I hammer the pedal beyond 30% travel before about 2500 rpm, so I have to watch it around town.  Once the engine speed has come up and boost starts to build a little, no more smoke.  On the highway, it's perfect - no problem holding or even accelerating to hold position at 70 mph on the highway.

I'm sure the fuel economy is not ideal, but it's much better than the 1.9 gasser engine that the AAZ replaced, and once you drive with overfuelled torque, it's hard to give that up.  

I don't understand the physics of why lag is so much worse in the vans than the cars.  Yeah, yeah, vans are geared very low and are much heavier.  But so what?  What is the scientific process involved?  Why will a given engine/pump/turbo combination build boost fast in a car but not in a van?  I understood boost to be partly a function of load, so surely the greater weight of the van would force a greater load on the engine, and theoretically a faster boost response, no?  (Well, obviously no.  But WHY not is the question).

[745 turbogreasel]

Recently I moved the EGT probe on my friends Cummins 12 valvefrom the turbo outlet elbow to the exhaust manifold.

Response is maybe 3 times faster, and  the peak reading went from around 900 to 1150 or so.  The truck runs around 320HP with EGR delete, torque plate, injectors, and a high flow filter.  WE could probably turn up the fuel a bit after a better exhaust, but I think its about as far as we should go on a stock tranny.

Anyway , Just thought I would share my experience on the only EGT guage I've run both ways.

[Baxter]

Mr. B, if you work on T25s all the time professionally, then I guess working on your own van would be kind of like a "busman's holiday"?  (Couldn't resist.)

Here's a photo of what I was thinking about (not the same one, but pretty close).  If it were me, I'd paint it body coloured:



I expect this would have a more aggressive scoop effect than that Winkler one you linked, as it projects out from the wall by maybe 3 or 4 inches (maybe illegal in your MOT?).

Thanks for the B32 photo - I've never heard of that beast.  I'm sure none made it over to North America!

Wa Wa Wa Waaaaa.... *Cymbal crash* "It's the way he tells 'em"
 :lol:

Thats the fella, that is a black plastic tray, found in hardware stores I believe, the website that I can no longer find gave you the shop and item number for the tray, there was also a "how to"

B32, have a click here for more info, a owners manual went on American E-bay not so long back...

http://vwpix.terlinden.com/berichte/weitere/2006_01_Youngtimer/

And...

http://vw.dnsx.de/archive/betriebsanleitungen/1984_08_Porsche_B32_Betriebsanleitung/

[Baxter]

GTD Injectors installed.
Pump timing advanced to 1mm of lift at TDC.
No particular change noticed other than it's now a little smoother and the "tink tink tink tink tink" noise now coming from the injection pump!
 :shock:
Now a bit of a bastard to start, thinking it may be residual air in the system, I will see what it's like in the morning!

Im sure I will feel the difference when the boost pressure goes up a little but Im reluctant to adjust fuelling any further due to the engines reluctance to return to idle when warm. Also makes the van difficult to drive down hills as I have next to no engine braking.
Rather than waste time on this JX pump I think I will install the GTD pump with the upright LDA before the weekend and try to get the governer mods done before I take a trip to the BusTypes show in Wales.

[Baxter]

Seeing as this has turned into a bit of a project blog...

I've finally got a cooling fan from a motorbike sat above the intercooler now blowing air through it.

As from the pictures up there somewhere you can see it's fitted behind the left hand rear light. The opening into the engine bay has been plated over so air is taken from the vent in the left hand pillar down, into fan, over intercooler and out downwards.
The intercooler is mounted where the bottom of the column was, this has been removed and the intercooler is the new floor to that column, as it were, if that makes sence.
The only other hole in there is the air inlet for the airbox, which may be a bit of an over sight as the hole column is set up for the intercooler, I don't yet know if the fan is going to be detremental to what the airbox is trying to pull in.
Anyway, it seems to be working better, fan is wired to the stop solenoid at the moment but I will soon wire it like a split charge relay only to activate when the alternator is charging.
When I had finished installing the fan I took some paper tissue and placed it over the air vent on the rear corner and it stuck, so it is doing something!

Road test, I don't know if it's the placebo effect but the van did seem to have more bollocks than before and seemed happier to rev.

On another note..
My journey home from work is around 10 miles, the last bit is up one of those nasty long inclines for about a mile, van pulled better but I also wired up the oil temp gauge tonight and I watched the temp go up to about 55-60 degrees C by the top. On my Caddy (1.6NA)ame hill at about the same speeds the radiator cooling fan would be on, on the T3 the gausge has just made it to half and the oil temp is good.

Things are looking promising, want to swap the pump before the weekend and give it some more fuel.
Annoying thing is I have now lost my Bleed valve and the pnumatics place have also lost my grainger type valve, great!

[jtanguay]

what if you made the fan draw the cooler air from below and send it up and away?

[Baxter]

what if you made the fan draw the cooler air from below and send it up and away?

Im using the  holes already there, if I did that there would be a conflict between the air coming in the vent from road speed and air trying to be pushed out.
Don't want to drill any more holes!

[Baxter]

No need for a bleed valve. Just screw the wastegate closed and be done. You'll max at about 17-18 psi with moderate EGT's and you'll avoid the pumping losses of the bleed.

I did that before on my TDI but it's such a faff going underneath to alter it.
Im going to wind it up a little tomorrow anyway, just not all the way.

Plus I have just chopped and added a t-piece to the actuator line and run some 3/16's brake pipe away from the turbo, then to plastic pipe to a sensible place on the blulkhead.
Too late, already done!

Todays shenanagins....
Removed the old 3H gearbox and replaced with AAR. Only to find that the biscuit spitters that have built it neglected to either check it properly or set 5 gear up as it won't stay in! Bollocks.
And, after roadtest it decided to what felt like engage 2 gears at the same time with the van coming to a sudden stop after a nice, loud bang  :shock:
Out with the new box and back in with the old...
Obviously said biscuit spitters got a phone call and Im dropping the offending item off next week when this VW Van festival is out of the way.

As said I added a T-piece to the wastegate actuator line and run some pipe up the the bulkhead in preparation for a bleed valve.

Finally swapped the BOV for a solid one.

Gotta go to work on Saturday and just make the interior habitable for a nights kip and load up with the stock for the show, so I will just wind the wastegate adjustment a little to pep it up for the trip.

[Baxter]

So, first proper run out to BusTypes.

current spec of the engine as it stands are..

1.6TD with MKI GTI oil filter head with oil cooler thermostat and piped to a MKI GTI oil cooler slung under the centre of the van.

1.9TDI Passat intercooler mounted in the bottom of the left hand rear air column thingy, behind and below the back light. Access into void blocked off into engine bay so cooling air is taken from the vent, over the intercooler and out downwards. This is constantly fed with air via a motorbike cooling fan.

Larger injectors and a few simple tweaks to the fuel injection pump.

K&N airfilter.

Took it steady at first as the van has done about 100 miles prior to setting off! I had an issue with the engine not returning to idle, this was sorted and off we went.

Onto motorway, feels really strong, the intercooler and injectors make a real difference to power. It's not the fact that the injectors are new as the old ones were recently rebuilt. Engine starts much better now, runs smoother and power comes in real steady like, it's producing max boost of .5 bar at 3000 rpm.

Van is quite happy to sit at 75-80 mph (80mph is 3800 rpm) and oil temperatures are cool, not heard fan come on yet and the water temp guage sits lower than the LED, even after putting it under some load up "Windy Hill" on the M62 the guage didn't faulter.

I have a flashy oil light problem at idle but that is just a faulty switch as Im using the switch in the sender for the pressure gauge and it's threshold is higher than the JX one it replaced.

I have a T-piece to fit the correct oil pressure switch and solve that one.

Blow off valve has been disabled enabling me to go above .8bar without the silly item releaving me of precious boost!

BusTypes was a 2 hour drive, I filled the tank, when I got there the needla had dropped to just below full! at 70-80mph!

On my return, longer route, driven harder I have well over half a tank left.

At the moment I feel the van has more useable power than the TDI-M I had as the enine is well suited to the gearbox.

Not one VW from BusTypes passed me, I lost count of the Bays, splits etc I passed. Lets just hpe it's sustainable! and reliable!

I will have done my 500 miles soon, so I will retorque the cylinder head then start playing with the boost.

Not returning to idle problem was throttle lever not returning to it's stop. I've given the throttle cable a bit of a squirt and backed it off a little and it seems fine now.

TBH Im really chuffed with it at the moment,it's a lovely quiet smooth little engine, it doesn't feel laboured, just feels nice, Im impressed!

[745 turbogreasel]

Sounds like youare already doing better than most gassers, and you had how many passengers?