Author Topic: different approaches to 1.6 n/a power upgrade (Read 11204 times)

kyledallas · « **on:** April 02, 2006, 01:24:08 pm »

I have an opportunity to purchase a vw diesel pickup... for $500.. motor is running and complete.. which is my real only concern as I was looking for VW diesel to power a Willys CJ3, I will be using Toyota manual trans.
I will NOT be running big tires... 31's max ... the research I did on the army version of the Willys listed the weight as 2100 lbs... (Jeeps went into Europe in Gliders.. you know..my 1981 CJ7 was 3800 lbs)
I am looking for different approaches to making power of 100 to 130 hp
... with $$$ in mind... I would like to hear from those who have added turbos to the 1.6 NA.... seems like a used manifold and rebuilt turbo would be a smart way to go.... while the motor is out I will be rebuilding it.. I am not going through the hassle of a custom install without freshening it up... so new pistons/rings/bolts/studs are part of the deal..
Ideas on pump
pitfalls to avoid
EZ power formulas you have tried
parts sources you like
articles I can read
head mod suggestions
cam upgrade...
timing suggestions
I am really trying to pick the brains of those who have "cut and tried"
Dyno backed results are hard to argue with and trump.." it really ran good"
The body on the truck is completely toast ... "farm beaten" would be an adequate description....
Fuel, Air, Timing, Exhaust....these 4 get me to 100-130hp... how would you do it??
thanks, Kyle

bryanbryan89x · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2006, 02:35:25 pm »

So essentially you are just purchasing the pick up for the 1.6 NA engine??? Im sure you dont want to hear this, but I would try and find a 1.6 td. It would be more economical I think...

kyledallas · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2006, 03:03:06 pm »

I agree with your reasoning.... but have had major trouble finding them at all.... or in "unhacked" or complete condition.
I have seen the sources for bare engines.... great.... what about the pulleys, brackets, etc....
I have also seen ads for people with used motors for sale.... problem is that many don't have the accesories, cables, exhaust manifolds, etc..
I really need to find one in a car.... like this one...
since it will be going into a completely different vehicle.... not another VW diesel... it is vitally important that all the extras are there..... could run up a HUGE bill not having all the little nessesities...
I would love to find a beaten car with a TD..... where are they???
and cheap?

?

I have located 2 dead cars in a year of searching.... this pick up being one of them..... the other a Dasher....another NA....

Someone here knows what to do.... I think it will be easier to find the information on mods than a complete car....maybe I'm wrong...
If I am and you or someone here has a complete, even non running, TD
car for $500 or less..... within 600 miles of Dallas.... I'd be glad to talk with them...
Somebody here has put on a junkyard manifold with rebuilt turbo on an NA , and had success......

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2006, 04:37:46 pm »

my dad bought his 85 td for 250, he could have got it for 200 or less but he felt kinda bad. this was right before all the fuel price bs.

kyledallas · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2006, 10:18:28 pm »

I hear you Trev.... alot of veggie diesel guys are buying pure junk these days and kinda eatin up supply of parts/builders

Andrew... the body on the pickup Im looking at is a #5 condition...
collector car talk for worst possible..... it looks like it was used as a cow feeding truck.... then sat in a field with the window down...
dents... check
rust.... check
rat crap...check
total p.o.s. .... check.... it is non restorable... but it runs... if it was
restorable I'd consider the swap...but, the truck is dog doo..

the CJ the motor will be going in only weighs.... 2100 lbs... VW car territory with the added drag of 4wd....the flat fender WW2 vintage jeeps
were very light...
The goal Im shooting for is adequate power, reliability, and mpg....
no big tires on this one...

Can anyone tell me what a modded 1.6 TD can do... HP wise...
How many cubes can I gain with an overbore???

I know some guys making 800 - 1000 hp on Big Cam IV Cummins
18 wheeler engines.... stock hp around 400... they are ceramic treating the pistons and heads so they can crank the boost......
I figured if reasoably priced I could sub in ceramic skirt treatment in lieu of oil squirters....coat the tops and valves and crank the psi....
....pssssssssssssssssttttt.....
There is a junkyard in Waco with a bunch of Turbo Saabs.....hello intercooler....
Here is tenative idea
1. Ceramic the pistons, valves, head
2. Turbo with best low RPM torque.... and up the boost
3. Used turbo manifold, rebuilt turbo
4. freshen the motor...freshen the pump
5. possible used intercooler if condition is adequate...

I have a buddy with a computer modeling program that will get the
specs for the engine within roughly 10 % of actual HP.... but I'm lookin for experienced voices here....

kyledallas · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2006, 09:46:07 pm »

GUESS I WILL ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION HERE FROM RESEARCH OUTSIDE THIS PAGE... THE N/A HAS DIFFERENT
1.HEAD- DIFFERENT ALLOY AND SEATS THAN TURBO
2. VALVES- NOT AS HEAVY DUTY AS TURBO
3. BLOCK- NO OIL SQUIRTERS FOR BOTTOM PISTON COOLING
4. PISTONS-NO KNOTCH FOR OIL COOLING
5. PUMP
IN SHORT... MANY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE N/A
AND THE TURBO 1.6... NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH BEING METALURGICAL

CONVERSATIONS WITH SEVERAL DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE PUT TURBOS ON THE N/A SUGGEST IT IS ILL ADVISED.... I DO NOT KNOW THE LEVELS OF BOOST BEING ATTEMPTED IN THE CONVERSION..
.... I DO NOT KNOW IF THE ATTEMPTS WERE WITH INTERCOOLING...

I DO KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GAULL A PISTON ON A CATERPILLAR 3406 TAKING IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO PULL OVER BECAUSE YOUR WATER PUMP HAS GIVEN UP..... LESS THAN 5 MINUTES AT EXTREMELY MODERATE SPEED..30MPH
YES, I HAVE SOME PISTON MELTING EXPERIENCE UNDER MY BELT...

MY FEELING AT THIS POINT IS THAT IT POWER LEVELS OF 100HP PLUS WOULD BE PULLING THE GRENADE PIN...
THE MOTOR MIGHT BE OK IF
1. INTERCOOLED
2. HEAT BARRIER COATED... VALVES, CHAMBER, PISTON SKIRTS
DOMES....
3. RUN AT MODERATE BOOST LEVELS.... PERHAPS ONLY TO STOCK
TURBO 1.6 LEVELS...
MAX POWER AT ABOUT 90HP...MAYBE LESS....
COULD OR SHOULD IT BE DONE?

?

SHAME TO SEE ALL THE N/A'S COLLECTING DUST BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS TOUGH.....
IF IT COULD BE DONE AFFORDABLY AND WITHOUT A TON OF EXTRA TIME INVOLVED IN THE BUILD THEN THE ANSWER MIGHT STILL BE YES..

vwmike · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2006, 10:41:09 pm »

You can turbo an NA VW engine, but it's like anything else - reliability is in careful management of the operating conditions. If you increase fueling as much as you need to and accompany it with enough boost pressure to cancel out the temperature increase then the only questionable areas should be those relating to combustion pressure. I am fairly confident that the engine could take such abuse, but only for short periods of time. Climbing a long grade with your foot on the mat will cause EGT's to skyrocket and without piston cooling jets you may find yourself sitting on the side of the road. Honestly, for the power you need/want I think you'd be better off stepping up to a TDI engine. Your wallet may well thank you in time.

mnoll406 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2006, 11:42:18 am »

Hey Kyle,
Justin turbo'd a newer 1.6NA. I guess any NA head with the 12mm bolts is the same material as the TD head. As far as cams and valves go I'm not sure. He drilled the bearing journals to create oil squirters and and installed td piston rings. He made a adapter plate to go between the NA manifold and turbo and is running 25 psi. I can't remember the post but there is a link to pics. If I find it I will add it. I'm in the process of doing the same just pulled an 12mm head bolt 1.6 and will start the rebuild soon. Will be coating pistons and have the toyota cutouts machined into the piston tops. At least that is the plan for now. Will also run a K03 turbo(spools faster) and maybe go for a compound set-up in the future.

Mike

kyledallas · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2006, 06:12:04 pm »

vwmike.. hey, you want me to get fragged playing Marine Sniper??... the caps lock keeps me running "at all times"... dude... come on...

mnoll.... vwdieselparts.com says the 1990 to 1992 eco diesel is the same as the turbo motor except for the pump... boost a riffic.....

the na I'm looking at is an early 80's model.... it has been my experience that most engines can handle up to 1 bar... 15 to 16 psi without any real trouble... intercooled ...

,

kyledallas · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2006, 06:26:45 pm »

vwmike... I think your reasoning is sound... but availability is scarce... and I have a chance to get this pickup with motor running... unbutchered by the salvage establishment...

... we are talking about 1600cc here
.... I should probably go ahead and look at a computer mock up..
15psi
intercooled
timed

and get a clearer picture on plus or minus 10% horepower level of converted NA.... if the motor grenades... or the mods cost as much as a
turbo motor anyway...its better to go td or tdi..

or look for a 90 to 92 na (see above reply) to boost

kyledallas · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2006, 02:39:25 am »

thanks for the update Andrew.. this type of info is exactly why I'm here in this forum... Im an old hand with diesels... but new with VW... and no, I haven't even bought the 1.6na yet......I figured I'd ask some questions before I spent my money... that's what I'm doing....
the truck is tucked away at a small mercedes/bmw shop... unadvertised..so I figured I could seek info before a buy..
getting eroneous info is part of the process...
the info I had on the eco came from vwdieselparts.com...
have any info on the heads of the 90 to 92 na Andrew??...
just wanting to see if vw was still making different heads as well as blocks......

kyledallas · « **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2006, 03:15:22 am »

If you guys would like to see a site with info on hot-rod diesels that I know ALOT more about
go to this site..
www.dieselinjection.net
or
www.pittsburghpower.com

The guys at Diesel Injection of Pittsburgh have been making BIG power that last for 15 to 20 years.... taking 18 wheeler Cummins and Cat motors
originally rated at 350-500hp and making 800-1000hp....
These engines are lasting 500k to 1Mil miles... at double their factory rated power or more..
The method of piston cooling employed in these engines is thermal barrier coating...... not squirters.. or should I say..keeping the heat off
there are certainly many types of TB coatings out there... some with merit and some without....
Diesel Injection of Pittsburg is using a process called Ion Bonding...
and advertise this as the process being used by Newman/Haas
Racing.... Paul Newmans race team..(IRL)(Indy Car)

Swain Tech coatings... or Swaintech offers this process to customers
engine internals, heads, valves,etc...

It is a different approach.... keeping heat off by thermal shield rather than cooling the piston with oil.....nice thing is that the heads and valves can be coated for protection as well....
I have wondered if keeping the heat in the chamber... with this method
... would cause the egt's to read higher... perhaps frightening those who were used to different temps on squirter cooled motors... I would bet there would be some difference...
Anyway... this caliber of coating is one of the ingredients in my
N/A hypothesis...... which is not dead yet

vwmike · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2006, 04:07:18 am »

You're getting into heat resistant coatings and costly rebuilds just to salvage an outdated, small displacement, indirect injection engine that doesn't meet your power needs....it still sounds like you're just pissing in the wind. Don't get me wrong - I think these engines are great but everything has it's place.

It's one thing to start with the biggest and best engine you can get (like a PD 150 or something) and spend your dollars there where the benefits would be much greater....it's another thing entirely to milk the smaller engine for everything it's worth just so that it can do what you need it to. A stock TDI longblock could do what you're asking without breaking a sweat and running less than 20 psi. Any of the 1.6's I've heard of making that kind of power were running 35 psi or more.

RabbitJockey · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2006, 10:14:24 am »

i know a guy whos turboed n/a engines many times and has ran them for years with no problems, of course this is with out increasing boost and fuel. but it's still better than driving an n/a engine. the same guy has built a vnt 1.6d caddy. anyways, he's also interested in turboing a 1.5l motor because he likes the way they run. this kind of makes me curious, if someone was to take an put the oil jets into a 1.5l and then turbo it, could the higher compression and shorter stroke be beneficial to the motor. this could be especially good for the guys who like to remove the governor and rev the piss out of there engines.

kyledallas · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2006, 10:39:26 am »

Point taken Mike... and a concern of mine...how much would I spend for a complete... freshly rebuilt TDI... with all accesories...
fresh block, heads, pump, turbo, ... assuming the rod bolts and head bolts are new on longblock...alternator, power steering, water pump,
air conditioning... whole nine belts, turbo fittings and hoses...intake manifold... exhaust manifold...linkages...

You can spend alot of money on the extras that a long block needs to run if you'd don't already have those extras... and I don't

the weight of the CJ3 is 2100 lbs... really the only reason I'm considering the 1.6... the power to weight is a match...

Here are some differences in the N/A vs Turbo.... you can view the
original info for yourself at
www.vwdieselparts.com/turbo.htm

1. Head- N/A has cast alluminum head.. Turbo has sodium injected alloy

2. Valve Seats & Pre Chambers- different materials on NA vs. Turbo

3. Valves- Turbo's valves made of uber material called Resistal.. Exhaust
vavles on Turbo reinforced by plasma spray during manufacture..

4. Block- Turbo has oil squirters for cooling... NA does not

5. Con Rods- Turbo's have greater piston clearance

6. Pistons- Turbo's of superior material and nochted for oil spray

Mike's point on dollars vs. power vs. intent is a good one especially considering the above info on differences in the NA and Turbo....

VW went to many lengths to handle the extra heat and power..