Priming Injection Pump Problems

[Spokerider]

Finally have the AAZ assembled, and the injection pump resealed. Today, I went to start it for the first time and I can't seem to get the pump to prime.

What I have done;

Pumped clean diesel through the pump with a mity vac pump connected to the "OUT" banjo fuel fitting. I Pumped fuel through until the mity vac reservoir was filled 3 times. I also pumped fuel through the small return hose on the injector furthest down the return hoses from the pump.

I have 12v going to the shut off solenoid, and cold start solenoid, and I can hear both of them click when energised.

I have cranked the starter at least 5 times [ 30 seconds each time ]  with the solenoid off and at least 5 times with the solenoids energised.

I don't see any diesel coming from the top two hard lines at the pump, when they are cracked open, when cranking. Ditto for all 4 of the hard line fittings at the injectors. 

When I resealed the pump, I thought it went well. I was extra careful to ensure parts [ like the ring around the vane pump ] went back the same way that they came out. I also have the ebay vid on VE pump resealing that I followed. Pretty sure I didn't eff it up, but I ain't perfect either

How long do you have to crank the engine to see fuel from the hard lines?? I'm thinking I should be seeing something by now.

Having pulled all of that fuel through the pump, could there still be air in there, not letting fuel out?

Thoughts?

[745 turbogreasel]

You need goood cranking speed to sling the vanes into position the first time comes to mind.

[TylerDurden]

Lift-section of the IP is easy to verify by watching the out-line.

Maybe a hold the throttle at half or more while cranking, and see if the hardlines weep.

[Spokerider]

I just connected the mity vac again and pulled another 6 containers of diesel through. Cranked it over again for 30 seconds times 2 times, and no fuel from the hard lines at pump connections.
 I may have had the hard lines cracked open when pulling fuel though with the mity vac.......guess I'll do it again with them all tightened down, just to make sure.

The starter cranks the AAZ engine pretty good, certainly as fast as my Cummins 12 valve cranks [ and starts ].

Once the pump has NO air left in it, how much cranking does it take to get weeping at the hardlines?

Right now, I'm trying to figure out if it is still air in the pump or something else effed up.

[TylerDurden]

If the IP is full, the hardlines should weep in ~15 sec. (even at idle). Holding the throttle open helps if the idle was set too low.

I'd put some clear line on the out bolt to return line.

[Spokerider]

Thanks for the suggestions Tyler.



Tried it again, hardlines tightened, pulled the shut of solenoid........the pump was full....it just gushed fuel with the solenoid out. Primed it again with the mity vac on the OUT line until a steady stream of fuel ran out [ 3 nity vac jars worth ]. Held the throttle wide open. Energized the solenoid again and cranked again 3 times........no weeping at the hardlines.

This is really starting to PMO. There must be something effed.

I'm trying everything that I can think of here.

Thanks for the suggestions Tyler.

[TylerDurden]

I'd try with the solenoid spring & plunger removed (but the body intact). Yep I read that you heard the click, but no-stone-unturned, eh?

[745 turbogreasel]

More voltage at the starter,  bigger cables and jump from a running car.

Or a not recommended start on spray  seems to do it for me, esp if you wait  for the glow plugs  to cool off a bit.

[Spokerider]

More voltage at the starter,  bigger cables and jump from a running car.

Or a not recommended start on spray  seems to do it for me, esp if you wait  for the glow plugs  to cool off a bit.

What type of start-up spray? Ether?
Would this be OK in a newly rebuilt engine?
 I know this stuff can be bought, but I have never had a need to use it before, and know little about it.

[Spokerider]

When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again  . No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.

I have put my "toys" to bed for the night. I was running out of patience so it was time to call it a day.
I was hoping to see the AAZ run today, so I could move onto doing the body work on the Samurai. Wishful thinking.

Anyway, I spent 3 hours reading others posts on " pump priming issues and such, hoping to get some insight on why this happens and what the possible causes of it are. In many of the threads, the original poster/s never did finish the thread with a cause / solution. Some did. Seems many peeps had trouble with leaking seals.......so the pump would not hold a prime. Others installed pump parts incorrectly, backwards or off 180 deg. Some damaged the pump head seal / O ring when putting the head back on the pump. One dude broke the pump shaft.......no spinny-no pumpy. Lots of guys just had air in the pump, and once it was removed the pump took a prime, weeped at the hardlines and thus started.

I guess I am looking for reasons WHY this pump won't prime. I have cycled a lot of diesel through it today via the OUT line.....into the fuel container....and back through the pump. I have ensured that the IN hose stays submerged in the diesel, so it's not sucking in new air.  I can't imagine that there is still an air lock inside. I do not however, have a hose clamp on the OUT banjo hose......the fuel hose is just pressed on. Would this make a difference?

Time for dinner and some whiskey..........

[Spokerider]

More voltage at the starter,  bigger cables and jump from a running car.

Or a not recommended start on spray  seems to do it for me, esp if you wait  for the glow plugs  to cool off a bit.

That thin red wire that you see in the second pic is the solenoid 12v wire. I have an appropriate 6 gauge wire for the starter / battery connection, not visible in the pic. That battery is from my Dodge / Cummins truck.

[745 turbogreasel]

Rolling the car in gear  would be a better option, but that doesn't look available to you.

Running a prepump will also do the job, even squeezing an outboard bulb wold probably work.

Yes I am referring to starting fluid or gasoline fumes.
You only  want to use a tiny amount, I usually spray one puff across not into the intake snorkel while the engine is cranking.

It tends to detonate early,  so  either disable the glow plugs, or wait 30 sec after the cycle has ended before cranking.

If there is  kickback, you used way too much, and  can damage rings, pistons, or glow plugs,  but there are rigs  in my fleet that have started exclusively on spray for  5+ years.

The scenario is the vanes from sitting, or assembly with  something thick like vaseline are pushed to the in position and hanging there.
If the starter is good, it will crank the motor at maybe 300 RPM, the pump goes half as fast so it's only seeing 75-150 RPM  to fling the vanes into position.  If it fires  for even a second on spray, and revs to 1000, everything falls into place, and you are good to go from then on.

But...How did the pump look inside? the control collar has to move 100% freely, or you will not be starting.

EDIT:

When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again  . No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.

This sounds backward like you might have the wrong kind of solenoid.  Energized, a stop solenoid  normally pulls in.  Could you have switched it with the cold start one (some of which go the other way)?
EAsy test, crank the motor with  the solenoid not powered, if you have fuel,  plug in the solenoid to kill motor.

Another one of those little crappy filters, or some cheap clear hose on the return line can also be helpful.

[Spokerider]

Rolling the car in gear  would be a better option, but that doesn't look available to you.

Running a prepump will also do the job, even squeezing an outboard bulb wold probably work.

Yes I am referring to starting fluid or gasoline fumes.
You only  want to use a tiny amount, I usually spray one puff across not into the intake snorkel while the engine is cranking.

It tends to detonate early,  so  either disable the glow plugs, or wait 30 sec after the cycle has ended before cranking.

If there is  kickback, you used way too much, and  can damage rings, pistons, or glow plugs,  but there are rigs  in my fleet that have started exclusively on spray for  5+ years.

The scenario is the vanes from sitting, or assembly with  something thick like vaseline are pushed to the in position and hanging there.
If the starter is good, it will crank the motor at maybe 300 RPM, the pump goes half as fast so it's only seeing 75-150 RPM  to fling the vanes into position.  If it fires  for even a second on spray, and revs to 1000, everything falls into place, and you are good to go from then on.

But...How did the pump look inside? the control collar has to move 100% freely, or you will not be starting.

EDIT:

When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again  . No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.

This sounds backward like you might have the wrong kind of solenoid.  Energized, a stop solenoid  normally pulls in.  Could you have switched it with the cold start one (some of which go the other way)?
EAsy test, crank the motor with  the solenoid not powered, if you have fuel,  plug in the solenoid to kill motor.

Another one of those little crappy filters, or some cheap clear hose on the return line can also be helpful.

Thank you for the info and advice. I'll get some starting ether tomorrow. Perhaps the priming problem is as you say, the fact that the pump is only turning 75-150 RPM or there-a-bouts, and the pump vanes are not moving out of their inboard seated position. Never thought of that.

Not sure what a "control collar" is, but I can say that I followed the pump resealing video.......removing each internal component and placing it in a container of clean diesel fuel, in the correct orientation that it was removed from the pump housing in. My pump was very clean inside, and the only cleaning of parts that was needed, was to lightly wash the parts in the clean diesel with my nitrile-gloved fingers. Reinstalling the parts in the correct orientation was easy as I just plucked the parts from the container as they were placed into it during disassembly.
When I installed the stator, rotor and vanes, rotor cover, and placed the main shaft into position, everything moved / spun freely. I continued to check for this as the other components were reinstalled too.
Vasaline......I only used a dab to hold the pump head springs in place during reassembly.....none used near the vanes.


The shut off solenoid...... it's the original on the pump. I didn't mix the cold start / shut off solenoids up for certain.
Today, I cranked the engine with the solenoids energized and without......no weeping at the hardlines either way.

[745 turbogreasel]

The control collar is the cockring around the pump plunger which ultimately translate  governor action into throttle reponse.  If you have gasoline, spilling a bit on the air cleaner works OK too, as does a butane lighter refueling  canister.

[theman53]

NEVER USE ETHER. It is a compression ignition and if you have to use something to fire it use wd 40 or something else that doesn't get as hot or go boom. Ether is very explosive and hot. If you want to have a much higher possibility of dropping a swirl chamber use ether, if you want it to make it last then use something else.