Pump pressure issue or maybe something else? Won't run

[bigbertha72]

I'm new to diesels. I have a golf that i have swapped a 86 na idi motor into. The motor I bought used with a bad injection pump. I then bought a used injection pump that claimed to be in good condition
This  is what I have done to it.
I put in new freeze plugs
The cylinders had no noticeable ridge and minimal soot (so i just cleaned the soot off)
Put in head studs
New headgasket (right notch I measured the popout of the pistons)
I gasket match ported the head and lapped the valves
New Timing Belt
Timed it to 1.0
Pulled the fuel pump (it was a gasser) and made pickup tubes
I have a a inline fuel pump to bleed out the lines.
I wired up the glowplugs similar to the pimp my glow plugs.
Measured the voltage drop and the ohms at each glowplug. .9ohm on 3 of them one at .8ohm (They get warm I can feel them)
Brand new 1000ca battery

I cranked the motor over trying to get it to start after bleeding out the lines. Wasn't getting any where, so i recracked the fuel lines from the injectors and notice there wasn't a lot of fuel coming out. Pulled the lines back off the pump to get a better look. Thats when I noticed it seemed like it was putting out low fuel pressure. It was about 50f out and I left the glow plugs on for about 45 seconds to try and get it to start.
I made a short video of it ( turn off the sound, i didn't think to mute it)
http://youtu.be/NqedN8841ho


Does the pump need to be resealed or is that normal? Trying to get it running and its not wanting to popoff. Thinking it has to do with the fuel pressure. Like I said, I have little experience in the diesel world. I was getting fuel while cranking it over because it was puffing out white smoke. And it sounded like it wanted to try and start a couple of times but just never would. I tried then to bump the timing up and down and it didn't really seem to change anything. Also tried using the cold start lever and it didn't help. I'm open to suggestions, I've tried to find the answer in the forum but I am at a lost.

[ORCoaster]

BB72,  Given all you have done to this engine and looking at the video I think you are very close on this.  The output of fuel is about normal from what I can tell.  The pressure at the injectors is what matters.  There isn't a lot of fuel going into them during normal operation.  How do you think we get 50 mpg out of these little buggers if they suck a lot of juice?  

The fact that you got white smoke coming out and you have tried rocking the timing up and back says to me you are near where you want to be.  But you do have to get fuel up and out the top of the injectors so slap those lines on again, hose off the spitting fuel as it is not good to have on hoses and such.  Then bleed the system as you did so you see fuel seeping out the top of the nut.  I have found that pulling the cold start level never hurts starting a cold engine.  It bumps the timing a bit, but what really isn't so well known is that holding the accelerator down about half to a third of the way to the floor really helps.  Once that engine barks the IP starts to spin up and really does deliver the fuel compared to the cranking starter motor.

That used pump doesn't look to have bad or stuck vanes in the impeller, at least the fuel out the back says that isn't the problem.  You don't say if the throttle arm was repositioned on the IP.  That is the bane of most rebuilds I think,  it has to be set right according to the alignment marks or by feel of when the resistance of the throttle arm starts and there are plenty of threads that describe that process.

Getting the IP and injectors matched with the timing is what we are after here.  Setting the timing to 1.0 might be a bit on the advanced side as well and can cause the white smoke.  But you did say you played with other settings.  I would go back to the settings of .88 or .90 if I were you until you get it running.  Once that is happening and all the air is out of your pump and system I might think about a change.  

That is all I can offer this late at night.  Brain be sleepy.  

[745 turbogreasel]

Looks line god  volume to me.

If you have the old  style pump  pulley, it will have 2 holes you can fit the timing  stop tool in,  and it is possible to get the timing 180 out.
...TDC #1 compression, cam tits up, the keyway  on the pump  pulley  should  point upward unless the pump was assembled wrong(pretty rare).

Is the fuel itself good?

You have to have a proper OUT banjo bolt on the pump out fitting, and a more open one at the inlet.

I find after a long sit, high cranking speed is more needed than any other time, and a rope tow or big truck w/ jumpers can be quite expedient.

I am with the  previous poster, put the pipes back on, purge them,and try a bit more.

PS does the starter sound really harsh, or is that just the video?

[TylerDurden]

IP output looks ok to me, too.

The IP 180^o issue is easy to check: by turning the engine by hand, a blob of fuel should come out of the #1 delivery valve a few degrees before TDC.

Got compression numbers?

[theman53]

If it has been a while since it started and you know the timing is good, try pull starting it. The IP can trap some air that takes a bit to get it out sometimes. The pull usually gets it spinning fast enough to fire. After the first start that way, run it for a good while and it should start normally if it was just air.

[bigbertha72]

Reset timing to .9 and when i was trying to rebleed the lines i noticed that cylinder 3 wouldn't bleed. I pulled the fitting off the back of the pump. The valve was sticking so i cleaned that and then was able to bleed  the  lines   and  get it   to start.

[Dakotakid]

745 is right! That starter sounds rugged. I made the mistake of having the volume up.

[damac]

I'm going through the same thing on a car with a mix of parts that were working fine before as well as new bosch injectors. 

My pump is just a used runner I cleaned and used in more than one car before.

I primed the sucker up and let it run for a good while and bled the cooling system and came back today and 10 seconds and just puffing out the pipe.  Took me a couple more cycles with pedal down before the poor car came to life.

I was getting some thicker smoke for a good 5 minutes with the cold start pulled that made me think my timing is off a touch, even though I'm a tick under the higher number in the bently.

I don't have time yet, but I am getting power to my glowplug setup and put new plugs in this engine that I tested not long ago, but I will check again.


That brings me to same question that may be the same thing you are dealing with.

What do the pros suggest if somebody has a used pump that has ran, but are at the high limit of timing by the book?

Do they bump the advance to a higher number by ear if the injector noise allows it and the car responds well?

[745 turbogreasel]

Look for an air leak, then check transfer pressure.

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

Your starter sounds like it is cranking at good RPMs. Put in a clear fuel return line between IP to tank and crank to bleed  till the clear line is without bubbles. Then bleed the injector hard lines by having one injector line nut loose 1/4 turn and crank till it starts (fuel should be squirting out of the loose nut as you crank). If the timing is good and the IP is fine and the injectors are fine and the compression is good and the glow plugs are good it should start.

[theman53]

Remember to keep your skin away from the pressurized diesel. These engines don't put out too much but diesel in the skin is a bad day.

[bigbertha72]

Well I got it running, but its still not right. I'm getting a lot of white smoke still. Is white smoke retarded timing?

Here's another video of it ( its LOUD) think I am going to have to put a muffler on it.
http://youtu.be/r1g-bMP3Hv0

[Dakotakid]

Judging one of these engines running by the exhaust color (at first start-up) is pointless. It is not up to temp. The cylinders have had diesel fuel and probably oil, etc. injected and spilled and placed in them while you worked on it and tried to start it for so long. If you set the timing to a full 1.00 mm on an N/A engine, it may be a bit much (advanced). There is clearly a point at which too much is too much (too soon, etc).

Yes, these n/a's without a muffler are torture. I am sure some 16 year-old-ish will write in and tell you the loudness excites the girls on the playground at school, etc. But, no muffler on one of these is a beootch. One with a turbocharger is quieter.

I listened to your youtube several times. It almost seems like I am also hearing the cam belt roar. If THAT is the case, it is way too tight. And, running it tight is going to educate you about worn intermediate shaft bearings and pump problems. But, hey....why should you NOT get the experience....right?

Don't forget to rev it up when you go past the playground...........

[bigbertha72]

Ok, i set the belt looser than an aba motor, but i will double check it and make sure it's not to tight. I had it up to about 190f  it was getting late and didn't want to make my neighbors hate me more. What's a good muffler for these little diesels?  I am to old and drive way to much to deal with loud exhaust. Magnaflow, borla, or something else?

[Dakotakid]

Here is what has worked extremely well for me regarding belts:

1) use ball of palm of hand (hypothenar eminence, actually) to push down on belt between cam pulley and pump pulley (nothing locked in place....cold belt)(this brings all the slack to that one place).

2) can you twist the belt (using one finger and thumb.....if you still got it!) about 70 degrees without hurting the ligaments in the fingers)? Maybe twist it just a little more? Good, then that is about right. I have yet to see one skip from being too loose (within reason). And, have heard many guys destroy stuff from too tight, though).

3)  Yes, it's just THAT quick and easy.....zip-bang.....gimme anotter beer!

Now, once the belt heats up, it is going to tighten. Don't believe me....check it out for yourself.

Mufflers is largely a matter of:  "...what can YOU afford?"  (Naw, those kids don' need no shews this month!).